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  1. #121
    Testimonial Due Hiberniankb's Avatar
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    Why didnít England bat first, and why didnít Smith enforce the follow on?


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  3. #122
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiberniankb View Post
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    Why didnít England bat first, and why didnít Smith enforce the follow on?
    I believe Root gambled on his bowlers, particularly Anderson and Broad, based on the expected weather conditions. I think that's a fair decision given England rely on Cook and Root at bat, Anderson and Broad with the ball, and Moeen and Stokes in-between. It's looking like the wrong decision but I can see why he made it, especially given Australia have won day-nighters at Adelaide fielding first. Nevertheless, it's proving wrong and just about everybody and their dog would have chosen to bat first.

    Regarding the follow-on, it's really fallen out of fashion over the last couple of decades. I think a lot of that is to do with the quicks being asked to push harder, so they physically need the rest. Plus pitches generally, and this one in particular, are going to benefit the bowlers come the fourth innings. A lot of talk relates to the 2001 Test between India and Australia, where Australia enforced the follow-on only to face spectacular batting by Laxman and Dravid, and then bowling by Harbajan and subsequently lost. I think that's misleading and it is essentially about resting your quicks and taking advantage of the deteriorating pitch on fourth innings.

    All that's just my opinion. The beauty of cricket is that there will be perfectly reasonable and fair points of view that are in complete disagreement to mine
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  4. #123
    @hibs.net private member weecounty hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    I believe Root gambled on his bowlers, particularly Anderson and Broad, based on the expected weather conditions. I think that's a fair decision given England rely on Cook and Root at bat, Anderson and Broad with the ball, and Moeen and Stokes in-between. It's looking like the wrong decision but I can see why he made it, especially given Australia have won day-nighters at Adelaide fielding first. Nevertheless, it's proving wrong and just about everybody and their dog would have chosen to bat first.

    Regarding the follow-on, it's really fallen out of fashion over the last couple of decades. I think a lot of that is to do with the quicks being asked to push harder, so they physically need the rest. Plus pitches generally, and this one in particular, are going to benefit the bowlers come the fourth innings. A lot of talk relates to the 2001 Test between India and Australia, where Australia enforced the follow-on only to face spectacular batting by Laxman and Dravid, and then bowling by Harbajan and subsequently lost. I think that's misleading and it is essentially about resting your quicks and taking advantage of the deteriorating pitch on fourth innings.

    All that's just my opinion. The beauty of cricket is that there will be perfectly reasonable and fair points of view that are in complete disagreement to mine
    Not sure about the everyone would have batted first. I'm sure I read that Root was the first captain in 25 years who had won the toss in Adelaide and batted first. Day night is different obviously but surely the history tells you something. Trying to be too clever perhaps.

  5. #124
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weecounty hibby View Post
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    Not sure about the everyone would have batted first. I'm sure I read that Root was the first captain in 25 years who had won the toss in Adelaide and batted first. Day night is different obviously but surely the history tells you something. Trying to be too clever perhaps.
    Not sure I worded my post right - I would have batted first. Steve Smith said he would. I read Shane Warne saying he would. Just about the whole of the English and Australian press is questioning Root's decision. And you've quoted the stats as to why the skipper should choose to bat first.

    If I'm reading you right I agree with your last sentence. I think he maybe was trying to be too clever, which is fair enough and definitely worth a shot after losing the first Test, but not losing it awfully. It's a tricky job being captain and I can see why he might have chosen to gamble on his bowlers. Going defensive would invite the draw at best, followed up by a trip to Perth where England can't find a win, then the MCG and SCG, where the Aussies will be stoked.

    In summary, Root gambled and it's looking like it's failed. Sometimes it's right to gamble, even if it fails though. I think he's tried to go for the win from the toss and come up short and I would give him credit for that. Australia have just been better.

    Day/night is obviously a gamechanger though and a learning curve for all sides - the ball moves differently under the lights.
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  6. #125
    @hibs.net private member weecounty hibby's Avatar
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    Captaincy is tough. I remember captaining Clackmannanshire U16s in the local industrial league waaaaaay back and I hated it. The history at Adelaide and the fact that to be honest the bowlers have won for England more than the batters recently I just think it was a poor choice.

  7. #126
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weecounty hibby View Post
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    Captaincy is tough. I remember captaining Clackmannanshire U16s in the local industrial league waaaaaay back and I hated it. The history at Adelaide and the fact that to be honest the bowlers have won for England more than the batters recently I just think it was a poor choice.
    Credit.

    I'm still in two minds about the choice. I don't think the result is in doubt, the Australians will win. Could England have won had they batted first? It's hard to tell. It's a pitch that was showing for the quicks as well as offering turn for the spinners early, so they could easily have dismissed England quickly in the first innings, with Lyon replacing Starc as the one who mops up the tail-end.

    By the same token, the Aussies got runs on the board and were then able to take ten wickets. For England, I liked Woakes and his partnership with Overton was the only thing that keeps England in the match.

    It feels like Root thought he had to go for it, which I understand. I actually probably do agree with it - sometimes it's okay to make a decision which doesn't work out. England were flushed after the First Test IMO, so Adelaide was always going to be go-for-broke.

    Captaincy is definitely a tough call though. Root will learn from Adelaide and will likely captain England for many years to come and no doubt use the learning to his advantage.
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  8. #127
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Australia looking seriously rattled now. Smith will be praying this game doesnít slip away. Root and Malan looking well settled and Australia have no reviews left. England 168/3, needing 186 to win.

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  9. #128
    Been listening to this all morning. Weird because it's been really tense even though Australia are still massively short odds favourites. England at least showing some fight though.

  10. #129
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Big wicket for Australia, Malan bowled by Cummings. Woakes comes in as night watchman.

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  11. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Been listening to this all morning. Weird because it's been really tense even though Australia are still massively short odds favourites. England at least showing some fight though.
    Yeah finally itís a contest.

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  12. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Been listening to this all morning. Weird because it's been really tense even though Australia are still massively short odds favourites. England at least showing some fight though.
    I'm not sure about the odds now. England are halfway there with 6 standing. Australia need a couple of quick wickets tomorrow morning. Woakes is a capable batsman and Root's the genuine article; another 178 runs isn't beyond them.

    I didn't expect this at all.

  13. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by Doddie View Post
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    I'm not sure about the odds now. England are halfway there with 6 standing. Australia need a couple of quick wickets tomorrow morning. Woakes is a capable batsman and Root's the genuine article; another 178 runs isn't beyond them.

    I didn't expect this at all.
    It's not completely impossible but you wouldn't expect Overton, Anderson or Broad (these days for understandable reasons) to last long, so Aus effectively need 2 out of Root, Ali & Bairstow and the game's theirs. On a 5th day pitch there's very little chance for England. It would make the top 10 of all-time test run chases anywhere!

  14. #133
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Been listening to this all morning. Weird because it's been really tense even though Australia are still massively short odds favourites. England at least showing some fight though.
    Credit to England for making a decent fist of it and going into day five with the chance of a win - it would be one for the history books, if they pull it off, as you said in your other post.

    While they still have strength at bat, in Root and Woakes, with Moeen and Bairstow to come, experience suggests that a victory should be beyond them - the pitch was an absolute beauty for the bowlers in the last couple of hours of play. This England team have shown themselves capable of stretching games out to day five however, and indeed the final session of day five, so it's all set for an exciting finale.

    Lots of praise for Anderson - he had some sublime bowling, but Woakes deserves praise as well, snagging probably the four most important wickets. I thought Overton did well in the field, to add to his performance with the bat, though he practically didn't bowl in the Australian second innings.

    For Australia, there were far too many runs conceded off the legside, especially at the start of the innings. As time went on however, the quicks really got into it, particularly Pat Cummins. He looks like an outstanding bowler, with the capacity to put runs on the board as a batsman as well.

    Australia look set with their bowling - there are four or five good seamers in the mid-twenties bracket and while Lyon is a little older, he still has years in him yet and seems to be getting better as he matures.

    Gaps in the batting though - Khawaja and Handscomb have difficulties with their technique and it's probably too early to say whether Bancroft can hold down his place. I liked the look of Matt Renshaw and potentially he could come back with Bancroft further down the order - interestingly, Bancroft can play as wicketkeeper, though it would be a bit unfair on Paine who has done nothing wrong since being recalled. As with Root, I think Smith should move up to three.
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  15. #134
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Interesting commentary in the build-up to day five that Steve Smith didn't speak to his quicks when he decided to enforce the follow-on.

    I'm not sure it makes a difference and I don't think it's as big a deal as Root's decision at the toss. If Australia do go on and win then nobody will even think about it.

    Still, should he speak to them? When I think of Steve Waugh, I think of someone who would be making his decision by himself, yet he would have had very strong personalities in the bowling line-up, Warne especially but McGrath too, who would have had thoughts about tactics.
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  16. #135
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Just about set to go. One day of cricket. If England can bat their way to victory then they will have broken or re-set various records - that's no small task. If Australia win then they go to Perth two up to a ground where England haven't won in forty years. It's hard not to love the Ashes
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  17. #136
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Hazlewood takes Woakes with the second ball, albeit controversially.

    Interesting debate about DRS and first call, though I suspect it all ends up at the same place - namely that umpires normally get it right but miss the very odd LBW.

    Looking forward to seeing Starc, Cummins and Lyon bowl, given what the pitch has done for Hazlewood
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  18. #137
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Oh what a fine over by Mitchell Starc. This is a finely-balanced Test match but I would put all my earthly gains on Australia.
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  19. #138
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    And Hazlewood takes Root, finest of edges to the wicketkeeper.

    Root fails to convert a half-century again.

    Hazlewood shows discipline and precision again.

    Moeen and Bairstow now, to essentially save the Ashes?
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  20. #139
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Touching on another poster's previous point about Aussies dealing with swing - Hazlewood looks like he has it. He could do very well on tour in England.
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  21. #140
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Silly shot from Moeen and Lyon takes yet another deserved wicket - what a year he is having. I think he is the leading wicket-taker in the calendar year, which is quite remarkable.
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  22. #141
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    Silly shot from Moeen and Lyon takes yet another deserved wicket - what a year he is having. I think he is the leading wicket-taker in the calendar year, which is quite remarkable.
    BT just covering it - he has taken 57 at 21.96. That's simply exceptional. There was huge fear factor after Australia lost Warne, Lyon has quietly stepped up and if 2017 isn't his best year ever (and so far it is) then we've got something to look forward to.
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  23. #142
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    And Cummins just hit Overton in the upper ribs - nasty and brutal, but fair. For those of a decent vintage it was reminiscent of your typical eighties Windies ball.

    I think Cummins is quite the player. He can bowl 90mph and he can bat. I like him a lot.
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  24. #143
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quite the enticing game. There's enough in here for both sides.

    Still backing the Aussies
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  25. #144
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    It doesn't look like they need it but the new ball is available now.

    Hard to see them passing it by.
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  26. #145
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    And straight away, first ball off the new ball, Starc takes Overton.
    Last edited by Mibbes Aye; 06-12-2017 at 04:02 AM.
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  27. #146
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Good stroke from Bairstow down the ground, but this is surely the death knell for England.
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  28. #147
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Starc's got Broad.

    Tenth wicket and its hard to seeing it going any other way.
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  29. #148
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Five-nil without a doubt.
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  30. #149
    Testimonial Due hibby6270's Avatar
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    Ah well. Thatís the Ashes gone imo. On to Perth.
    Aussie bowlers just showing how good they are in home conditions.
    English batsmen unable to cope.
    That said, if you think of all the Ďplay and missí shots Aussie batsmen had, were England just unlucky or are the Aussie batsmen just better at missing those balls compared to how the English batsmen play them?

    Back to bed now methinks.

  31. #150
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Where do you begin?

    To win a Test match you need to take twenty wickets, simple as as that.

    Josh Hazlewood, Pat Cummins, Mitchell Starc and Nathan Lyon did that. That's why England lost and deservedly so.

    Great Test match and a fair result.
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