The 2017-18 Ashes

[Mibbes Aye]

Nice to see Shaun Marsh get his ton, alongside his brother. You could tell it meant a lot to both of them.

England not taking the new ball yet, it's a bit of a gamble. Literally as I typed that sentence they decided to take it!!

Not sure about the decision, there is a lot of spin in the pitch but when you have your two leading wicket-takers of all time in the side then you want to give them every advantage.

I think this pitch offers so much to the Aussie quicks and Lyon. Hard to see how the series doesn't end 0-4.

Broad will be chasing his 400th wicket soon. It's an outstanding achievement should he make it.

[Mibbes Aye]

Confused by England's approach.

They take the new ball and then give it to Moeen and Crane?

Why hasn't Broad bowled yet?

[Mibbes Aye]

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Confused by England's approach.

They take the new ball and then give it to Moeen and Crane?

Why hasn't Broad bowled yet?

Goes for nine off the over when he gets his start. I guess that's why he hasn't been bowling.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Goes for nine off the over when he gets his start. I guess that's why he hasn't been bowling.

And another nine of his next over. Expensive stuff from Broad.

[Mibbes Aye]

And Mitchell Marsh reaches his century. Lovely stuff. Seemingly only the third pair of brothers to achieve it in the same match and both previous were Australian.

[Mibbes Aye]

Cracking delivery by Tom Curran to take Marsh's wicket.

I really like the look of this young bowler and I suspect he may have a long and fruitful career for England.

[Mibbes Aye]

Australia edge the lead to over two hundred. Got to imagine they will push on and try and get to the psychological barrier of three hundred and then declare.

[lord bunberry]

I know there’s not many of us contributing to this thread, but if we were to do a johnyboy type this is how it feels thread, how would you summarise the series?
I was expecting a series win for Australia, but I thought England would have put up more of a fight. The biggest disappointment has been the flat pitches, but I suppose that’s what the Aussie team wanted.

[Mibbes Aye]

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I know there’s not many of us contributing to this thread, but if we were to do a johnyboy type this is how it feels thread, how would you summarise the series?
I was expecting a series win for Australia, but I thought England would have put up more of a fight. The biggest disappointment has been the flat pitches, but I suppose that’s what the Aussie team wanted.

The elephant in the room is the absence of Stokes. Having said that I think it's always been a case of how much do Australia win by, regardless of whether Stokes was available. Also, James Pattinson would have been in the frame for Australia had he not been injured. That raises the question of whether they went with an awesomely aggressive pace quartet or whether they stuck with three. Going with three quicks and picking Pattinson means choosing to drop one of the others and I'd hate to make that decision

England haven't been able to take twenty wickets in a match yet, and that's what you need to do to win a Test match. All three of the Australian top seamers and their spinner are in double figures. And that's what you need to win Test matches.

Batting-wise, Steve Smith has had the kind of series that you talk about for years to come. Shaun Marsh has done more than anybody from the England camp and utterly justified his recall, good selection. Warner, Mitchell Marsh, Khawaja and Paine have all contributed at key times. Typically for Australia, they've also been able to rely on their bowlers to produce runs and Pat Cummins leads the way there. If he can stay fit then they've got a cracker of a player there.

Bowling-wise, as said, Starc, Cummins and Hazlewood have all delivered and impressed at different times. Nathan Lyon has seen out what is almost certainly the best calendar year of his career, in fact up there with the best of all time and deserves a lot more praise than I think he is getting.

For England, at bat the new guys have probably slightly exceeded expectations and the old guard have let them down. Malan has had a good tour and shown he can bat. He will move up the order and if Root continues to hide from three then I can see Malan slotting in there. Stoneman looks resilient and I think he will keep his place for the NZ tour and then the summer. My problem is that Cook won't be around much longer, so where is the succession planning? Stoneman, as decent as he is, isn't anywhere near Cook's level and England have no idea who would partner him. Vince has shown he is good at the things he is good at (mainly the cover drive), but that's all. He might make the NZ tour but he's not the future for England.

With the experienced guys, Root has probably tried to do too much as captain and that's affected his batting. Converting his 50s into 100s now seems to be a psychological issue. Cook, meanwhile, struggled to find his touch and it became an issue in itself. Bairstow was batting far too low down the order, especially when it became clear Stokes wouldn't play and when it became clear that Moeen wasn't able to find form.

Bowling-wise, Anderson has put in a tremendous shift and he deserves enormous credit. He's had to make up for Broad and Moeen and he's done so. He's at the tailend of his career yet he's bowling like he's at the outset. Overton looked good prior to his injury. I like Woakes but he's had a difficult time.

Regarding the spinners, England are paying for not properly replacing Graeme Swann. I really like Moeen but he's been cruelly exposed as a bowler here. Mason Crane has a great attitude but is very, very raw.

On the plus side for England, I really like Tom Curran. I hope he gets his chance and is allowed to grow as a player. Critically, I think Root and Bairstow need to move up the order. Root to three, with Malan to four, and then maybe swapping once Malan has had a bit of experience higher up the order. Bairstow needs to go to five, be playing alongside higher-order players. That frees up a space either for Foakes or for Livingstone, Clarke or Lawrence.

[Mibbes Aye]

Great innings by Shaun Marsh. Should be a great cameo from the Australian tailenders to pile on a few before Steve Smith calls them in.

[Mibbes Aye]

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Great innings by Shaun Marsh. Should be a great cameo from the Australian tailenders to pile on a few before Steve Smith calls them in.

Poor loss of his wicket by Stoneman.

Is it wrong to have a sweepstake on when England lose?

[Mibbes Aye]

Bowled Gazza!

What a delivery.

Hats off to Cook, twelve thousand runs is an achievement.

[Mibbes Aye]

Play underway in Sydney. Moeen in for Root, but the skipper is in the ground. Hopefully he is able to participate later, after his hospitalisation.

Interesting comments by Paul Farbrace, the England assistant coach. He's certainly not left anything unsaid, but is almost certainly spot-on. I suspect it reflects the fact that a very good England team of ten or so years ago have dissipated while a weak Australian team over the last decade have managed to start to sort themselves out. Australia still need a lot of work to get back to their position of international dominance but a decent Aussie side will always trump anything less than a very good English side, on Australian soil.

This is a decent Aussie side, who need to work out three or four batting positions. This is an England side that's good but not very good and have to work out three or four batting positions and maybe a decision or two in the bowling department.

[Mibbes Aye]

And Lyon snags Moeen plumb, for what I think is the seventh time?

Outstanding series for Lyon, Moeen's misery continues.

Lots of credit to Root, making his way out to the crease. Physically and mentally, it's a big ask.

[Mibbes Aye]

Sorry for the gap, great delivery by Cummins to take Broad's wicket.

For me, Pat Cummins is the man of the series. He's played it through and over-ridden his injury concerns, bowled at 90mph-plus and taken key wickets, while putting in handy runs several times.

Anyone else want to nominate their man of the series?

[Mibbes Aye]

Another good wicket by Cummins.

He's taken big wickets but he's also tidied up the lower order.

Really looking forward to the Aussies touring South Africa. The pitches will suit both bowling attacks. Hopefully Dale Steyn recovers quickly, that would make for some series, in terms of fast bowling line-ups.

[Mibbes Aye]

Lovely couple of balls played by Tom Curran, three in fact if you include how he ducked the bouncer.

Nice batting, fair bowling.

[Mibbes Aye]

That was a great over between Curran and Cummins and exemplifies what Test cricket is about.

[Mibbes Aye]

Cracking drive to the boundary, showing great footwork by Curran. Really like him.

[Mibbes Aye]

And that's that!

Some great cricket. England played well at times but never really looked like winning the series, though at times they challenged for matches.

Australia just did it, whenever they were asked - two innings victories and a ten-wicket result tell their own story.

[Mibbes Aye]

Been some cracking posts on this thread, it's made it a pleasure to read.

Thanks for all the contributions

[HibernianJK]

Don’t think you can argue with Smith as MOTS. Historic level of class and consistency. England totally outclassed.

[stantonhibby]

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Sorry for the gap, great delivery by Cummins to take Broad's wicket.

For me, Pat Cummins is the man of the series. He's played it through and over-ridden his injury concerns, bowled at 90mph-plus and taken key wickets, while putting in handy runs several times.

Anyone else want to nominate their man of the series?

Has to be Smith......and then either Cummins or Lyon.

For England, Malan then Anderson.

[--------]

Devil's Advocate time.

One thing that does concern me is the way everyone on the England bus seems determined to talk things up.

"Not a disaster."

"We played well, but lost it at crucial moments."

"We prepared as well as we possibly could have."

"We all worked really hard in the nets - don't see what we could have done differently."

"England's unity a huge positive."

And so on ....

4-0 (and a draw that was down to the pitch rather than any residual gutsiness on England's part) looks pretty much like a disaster to me.

I REALLY don't think Douglas Jardine, Brian Close, or Ray Illingworth would have been happy with that sort of return.

And before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm not blaming Joe Root; he's an exemplary professional and a thoroughly decent man.

In my opinion he was badly let down by his vice-captain long before the tour began; too many senior players have come nowhere near the form that should have been expected of them; and the 'Avenue' night-club must be ever so grateful for the free publicity Bairstow (old enough to know better) and Duckett (supposedly there or thereabouts for selection to the senior team and also old enough to know better, especially after Bairstow's tour de force) gave them.

There must be questions about the coaching. Moeen was out the same way to the same bowler almost every time he went in. Vince gets in, and then out. Over and over again. Cook seemed to be in a daze for the first three matches. Isn't that the sort of thing coaches are supposed to deal with? Maybe I'm not seeing something others are seeing, but the team looked half-cooked at the Gabba - they competed for two innings then collapsed like an ill-done souffle. And then it got worse in Adelaide. And worse in Perth. And at the MCG. And then at the SCG. Apart from Melbourne, these matches weren't close-run affairs - they were tankings.

I think that anyone who missed this tour for whatever reason did themselves a favour. The senior players need to give themselves a good shake, waken up and give their captain proper support. The selectors and coaches need to waken up and pick and prepare a competitive side, with an eye on Australia coming to England in what - 18 months' time? because Smith gave them fair warning - he wants to keep the urn by winning in England, and my guess would be that everything between now and then will only really matter to the Aussies in terms of how it assists them in achieving that end. And believe it or not, I really would like to see England beating them next time around. But frankly, I don't see it happening.

[--------]

In cricket stats may not be everything, but they matter a hell of a lot.

Bradman - 0.06 short of the ton - do you think he cared? Sure he did. He never got over it.

So here are the stats.

The England batting/bowling averages for the series.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/records/averages/batting_bowling_by_team.html?id=11645;team=1;type= series

The Australia batting/bowling averages for the series.

http://stats.espncricinfo.com/ci/eng...=2;type=series



I rest my case, m'Lud.

[--------]

I'll calm down now. I've had my rant.

[Mibbes Aye]

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I'll calm down now. I've had my rant.

Your stats point is critical IMO.

Only four Australians took wickets. But it was their top four and they all took twenty or more, with three of them averaging in the mid-twenties for runs. Lyon averaged just over 29 but bowled more overs than anyone else in the series.

Seven Australian batsmen averaged over forty, two averaged over 100. The Marsh brothers scored more centuries than the whole England team, despite being seen as iffy selections. Bancroft was the only one who needs to improve his figures and he has the benefit of being the new boy.

England's bowling was abysmal. Anderson is the only one who walks away with any credit. What's worse is the only others who averaged under forty were Overton, who went out injured after a brief cameo, and Root, a jobbing spinner (though ironically, his list of wickets is pretty impressive). For Curran and Crane it was chastening but they have time on their side - their figures remind me of Shane Warne's debut. Broad, Woakes and Ali all failed.

At bat, Root did okay but has now made the lack of conversion of 50s to 100s the sole talking point about his game. Malan did well, Cook is only in the 40s because of his unbeaten knock. Bairstow ever so slightly under-performed and Curran offered enough to make him look like a valuable lower-order batsman. Vince and Stoneman failed and although Vince outscored Stoneman both in total runs and individual scores, I think he's more vulnerable simply because England don't have opening options.

I completely agree with the sentiment of the first of your three posts. This was an absolute shambles for England. In 2019 they will have to hope they can crank a little bit more from a James Anderson who will be in his late thirties. They only bowled 55 wicket-taking deliveries and one-third of those were Jimmy's. They also have to sort out a batting order where they need to identify not just three or four batsmen but also shake up the order.

For Australia, their bowling unit looks set, which is what you need to win matches. Hazlewood in particular will relish English conditions and they have James Pattinson to come back. If Cummins maintains his form with the bat then it opens the door to them playing four quicks plus Lyon, while still having seven batsmen averaging forty-plus. That would be a fiercesome attack.

Still some questions for Australia with their batting line-up. For me only Smith and Warner are genuinely nailed-on places. They've got a tour of South Africa, limited overs games in England and hosting India this calendar year, so it should establish just what the team will look like when they visit England in 2019.

[hibee62]

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Devil's Advocate time.

One thing that does concern me is the way everyone on the England bus seems determined to talk things up.

"Not a disaster."

"We played well, but lost it at crucial moments."

"We prepared as well as we possibly could have."

"We all worked really hard in the nets - don't see what we could have done differently."

"England's unity a huge positive."

And so on ....

4-0 (and a draw that was down to the pitch rather than any residual gutsiness on England's part) looks pretty much like a disaster to me.

I REALLY don't think Douglas Jardine, Brian Close, or Ray Illingworth would have been happy with that sort of return.

And before anyone gets the wrong idea, I'm not blaming Joe Root; he's an exemplary professional and a thoroughly decent man.

In my opinion he was badly let down by his vice-captain long before the tour began; too many senior players have come nowhere near the form that should have been expected of them; and the 'Avenue' night-club must be ever so grateful for the free publicity Bairstow (old enough to know better) and Duckett (supposedly there or thereabouts for selection to the senior team and also old enough to know better, especially after Bairstow's tour de force) gave them.

There must be questions about the coaching. Moeen was out the same way to the same bowler almost every time he went in. Vince gets in, and then out. Over and over again. Cook seemed to be in a daze for the first three matches. Isn't that the sort of thing coaches are supposed to deal with? Maybe I'm not seeing something others are seeing, but the team looked half-cooked at the Gabba - they competed for two innings then collapsed like an ill-done souffle. And then it got worse in Adelaide. And worse in Perth. And at the MCG. And then at the SCG. Apart from Melbourne, these matches weren't close-run affairs - they were tankings.

I think that anyone who missed this tour for whatever reason did themselves a favour. The senior players need to give themselves a good shake, waken up and give their captain proper support. The selectors and coaches need to waken up and pick and prepare a competitive side, with an eye on Australia coming to England in what - 18 months' time? because Smith gave them fair warning - he wants to keep the urn by winning in England, and my guess would be that everything between now and then will only really matter to the Aussies in terms of how it assists them in achieving that end. And believe it or not, I really would like to see England beating them next time around. But frankly, I don't see it happening.

It’s been a fairly consistent story across test cricket recently that no one wins away from home, there’s no stand out team as in the days of the great Aussie or West Indies teams.

If we think of it that way and treat the last ashes and this as a 2-legged home/away series, Australia are 6-3 winners which is probably a better reflection than 4-0 of the two teams’ abilities. I also think boycott is right, however, when he says the Aussies are a lot closer to winning in England than England are to winning in Australia. 2019 could be interesting, not least because it will be the end for broad/Anderson/Cook if it doesn’t come before then!

[Mibbes Aye]

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It’s been a fairly consistent story across test cricket recently that no one wins away from home, there’s no stand out team as in the days of the great Aussie or West Indies teams.

If we think of it that way and treat the last ashes and this as a 2-legged home/away series, Australia are 6-3 winners which is probably a better reflection than 4-0 of the two teams’ abilities. I also think boycott is right, however, when he says the Aussies are a lot closer to winning in England than England are to winning in Australia. 2019 could be interesting, not least because it will be the end for broad/Anderson/Cook if it doesn’t come before then!

Of the three of them, Broad actually looks closest to being done. Anderson was able to bring his game and while Cook struggled, he pulled it out for at least one innings in a big way. Broad had a horrendous series.

I think there's an important decision for England. A conservative choice would be to hope all three can play a part in 2019. They certainly won't be there for the next tour in 2021. The other option is to tackle the challenge of replacing them. No small decision - their best opener and their two leading seamers.

To an extent I think they find themselves in the situation Australia did just a few years ago - players like Warne, McGrath, Gilchrist, Hayden and Langer all retiring within a short space of time.

Stoneman hasn't entirely convinced, so England are really looking at finding two openers and two opening seamers. That's a big ask, as they do have emerging talent but it is very much in the middle order.

[Mibbes Aye]

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It’s been a fairly consistent story across test cricket recently that no one wins away from home, there’s no stand out team as in the days of the great Aussie or West Indies teams.

If we think of it that way and treat the last ashes and this as a 2-legged home/away series, Australia are 6-3 winners which is probably a better reflection than 4-0 of the two teams’ abilities. I also think boycott is right, however, when he says the Aussies are a lot closer to winning in England than England are to winning in Australia. 2019 could be interesting, not least because it will be the end for broad/Anderson/Cook if it doesn’t come before then!

That's generally true and no surprise but over the last five years we've seen Pakistan, India and New Zealand win in the West Indies; South Africa and Australia win in New Zealand; England and Australia win in South Africa; India, Pakistan, South Africa and Australia win in Sri Lanka; Sri Lanka win in England; England win in India and South Africa win in England and Australia