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Thread: The Poppy

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    @hibs.net private member Sylar's Avatar
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    The Poppy

    It seems every year brings a new controversy or new story surrounding the national symbol of Remembrance.

    I find myself balking a little at how the symbol and meaning behind the poppy has become utterly *******ised in recent years. It's no longer simply a symbol of those who fought and gave up their lives in conflicts of yore. The historical link back to WW1 is almost now redundant for many, and instead, the poppy has come to symbolise a proper national/military 'pride' in many quarters. I find myself incredibly uncomfortable by the expansion of poppy 'retail'. In Glasgow just now, there are 'poppy up' shops, where you can now buy not just a standard poppy for a jacket, or a poppy on a wooden cross to be planted in memoriam...you can also buy 'poppy merchandise', including t-shirts, hats, scarves, jumpers, flags and all sorts of other stuff. To me, that's a garish step-change from what should be a very sombre, and personal expression for people at this time of the year.

    In addition to an increasing range of poppy merchandise, I also feel increasingly uncomfortable with the attitudes and judgement toward those who aren't wearing one, and the increasing push to wear them earlier and earlier every year as if it somehow elevates your moral stature a little. I took my 6 month old a walk in her pram this afternoon, and on my way out of the house, grabbed the first jacket I could put my hand on - upon passing those selling poppies, I was greeted with '...I see you're choosing not to wear a poppy - do you want to buy one?'. As it turns out, I do have one - it's just on my jacket I tend to wear going to work through the week, but I paused and asked that guy why he went right to attacking my choice not to wear one, and he said he was insulted by fewer and fewer people wearing them in today's culture, clear that people no longer did care, and that 'Lest we forget' was becoming nothing more than a seasonal phrase.

    On the other side of that coin, watching MOTD earlier, I was quite 'pleased' (for lack of a better word) to see many of the German players in the EPL wearing a poppy on their shirt and observing the minute's silence. I first noticed Jurgen Klopp in his interview and thought it was very forward looking. Yet despite the fact that every single German player in the league wore one today, James McClean continued his stance against wearing one...and I can't quite explain why, given my aversion to 'poppy fascism', but that makes me somewhat uncomfortable (something I'm currently reflecting on, to determine whether I am actually bothered or not...).

    I say all of this as someone who always observes Remembrance day. Despite my concerns and discomfort, I do wear a poppy. I will attend a Remembrance service next Sunday (and whenever our work hosts one through this coming week). I say it as someone who's visited the Battlefields of Belgium and France, stood at some of the most poignant, eerie landscapes in Europe and marvelled at the lingering sense of death all around. I say this as someone who remains incredibly proud to have read Binyon's 'For the Fallen' at a ceremony under the Menin Gate in Ypres when I visited with a school group back in 2000, and I say all of the above as someone who has a proud family history of serving their country, including two family members who's names are displayed within Tynecot cemetery.

    I just feel we're eroding something that should be a poignant, and thoughtful period with a growing attitude of expectancy, judgement and exploitation.
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    A well thought out and eloquent post. I served in the military until my mid 30's and am appreciative of the work the RBL does in helping veterans deal with issues they deal with related to their military service. I've got many friends who were left to deal with their demons by our government and aftercare after discharging from the services is poor to non existent and without the services provided by the RBL and at least partially funded by poppy sales. However I can't help feel that the symbolism of the poppy has changed from "Lest we Forget" to "Don't you dare Forget" and that concerns me somewhat. More and more it's being used by the far right and not so far right to bash opponents with and has somehow evolved from a symbol of quiet reflection into one of hate, division and national pride. Because of this I'll continue to donate to the RBL but have my concerns about wearing the poppy.

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    @hibs.net proletariat member Pete's Avatar
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    In the past there used to be a collection tin and a box full of poppies and now I see these tables full of all types of merchandise. It might simply be a case of moving with the times but I preferred a simpler way of doing things...and a simpler message.

    The heartening thing is that every table Iíve seen is manned by the elderly. Iím sure they still have untainted views of what the poppy and Remembrance Day is all about.

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    I agree, there seems to be a greater swell of Ďwhy arenít you wearing a poppy?í, usually asked in a semi aggressive manner,
    and, another swell of Ďyouíre supporting state sponsored genocideí type comments from the opposite side.

    i was brought up witnessing and believing that the poppy is a mark of respect and reflection for those who have given their lives for the freedoms we live in. That still my thoughts today, I have bought one yearly for a long time.

    i donít like the clamour to parade them, especially on tv these days (has anyone else noticed that the Poppyís worn on tv are becoming more and more elaborate? Gilt edged, bejewelled, and more). I also agree about the sudden expansion of buying a poppy, wristbands and tshirts etc donít sit well with me,

    I respect peopleís choice to wear or not wear a poppy, I donít believe that anyone had the right to question anyone elseís motives for their choice, and equally that no one has the right to impose their own choice on anyone else.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    It seems every year brings a new controversy or new story surrounding the national symbol of Remembrance.

    I find myself balking a little at how the symbol and meaning behind the poppy has become utterly *******ised in recent years. It's no longer simply a symbol of those who fought and gave up their lives in conflicts of yore. The historical link back to WW1 is almost now redundant for many, and instead, the poppy has come to symbolise a proper national/military 'pride' in many quarters. I find myself incredibly uncomfortable by the expansion of poppy 'retail'. In Glasgow just now, there are 'poppy up' shops, where you can now buy not just a standard poppy for a jacket, or a poppy on a wooden cross to be planted in memoriam...you can also buy 'poppy merchandise', including t-shirts, hats, scarves, jumpers, flags and all sorts of other stuff. To me, that's a garish step-change from what should be a very sombre, and personal expression for people at this time of the year.

    In addition to an increasing range of poppy merchandise, I also feel increasingly uncomfortable with the attitudes and judgement toward those who aren't wearing one, and the increasing push to wear them earlier and earlier every year as if it somehow elevates your moral stature a little. I took my 6 month old a walk in her pram this afternoon, and on my way out of the house, grabbed the first jacket I could put my hand on - upon passing those selling poppies, I was greeted with '...I see you're choosing not to wear a poppy - do you want to buy one?'. As it turns out, I do have one - it's just on my jacket I tend to wear going to work through the week, but I paused and asked that guy why he went right to attacking my choice not to wear one, and he said he was insulted by fewer and fewer people wearing them in today's culture, clear that people no longer did care, and that 'Lest we forget' was becoming nothing more than a seasonal phrase.

    On the other side of that coin, watching MOTD earlier, I was quite 'pleased' (for lack of a better word) to see many of the German players in the EPL wearing a poppy on their shirt and observing the minute's silence. I first noticed Jurgen Klopp in his interview and thought it was very forward looking. Yet despite the fact that every single German player in the league wore one today, James McClean continued his stance against wearing one...and I can't quite explain why, given my aversion to 'poppy fascism', but that makes me somewhat uncomfortable (something I'm currently reflecting on, to determine whether I am actually bothered or not...).

    I say all of this as someone who always observes Remembrance day. Despite my concerns and discomfort, I do wear a poppy. I will attend a Remembrance service next Sunday (and whenever our work hosts one through this coming week). I say it as someone who's visited the Battlefields of Belgium and France, stood at some of the most poignant, eerie landscapes in Europe and marvelled at the lingering sense of death all around. I say this as someone who remains incredibly proud to have read Binyon's 'For the Fallen' at a ceremony under the Menin Gate in Ypres when I visited with a school group back in 2000, and I say all of the above as someone who has a proud family history of serving their country, including two family members who's names are displayed within Tynecot cemetery.

    I just feel we're eroding something that should be a poignant, and thoughtful period with a growing attitude of expectancy, judgement and exploitation.
    Completely agree. I wear a poppy, but like you and others on here, I'm deeply uncomfortable with the reinvention of the occasion - and the poppy - from a simple, poignant moment of reflection and remembrance and a simple symbol, to what feels like a commercial event with undertones of a celebration of some sort. I do recognise the need to raise money, but turning the poppy into earrings and brooches and t-shirts just seems wrong to me.
    Likewise the fact that it's gone a bit Christmas, and we're doing Remembrance events from the start of November until after Armistice has passed. And the enforced participation thing.

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    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    I have never been accosted by anybody, strangers or otherwise for not wearing a poppy. I would find it incredibly odd if it were to happen when I was out for a quiet stroll. Yet apparently itís common.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    In the past there used to be a collection tin and a box full of poppies and now I see these tables full of all types of merchandise. It might simply be a case of moving with the times but I preferred a simpler way of doing things...and a simpler message.

    The heartening thing is that every table Iíve seen is manned by the elderly. Iím sure they still have untainted views of what the poppy and Remembrance Day is all about.
    I agree. Back in the sixties we used to gather on a crisp November Sunday morning - I in my school uniform dwarfed by men and women in winter coats and hats. A tear or two was shed around the war memorial but silence was strictly observed. Afterwards, everyone dispersed to get on with their lives.

    Bear in mind that these were largely people who had actually served in World Wars 1 and 2. They had actually been there and knew personally comrades and relatives who had fallen. But despite that, no one felt the need to wear a poppy more than a day or two before the event, and certainly not after. And the sight of a TV presenter on a couch in a stripey shirt with a poppy stuck on it would have been offensive to them,.

    Remembrance is about World Wars 1 and 2 - not the Falklands, not Iraq , not Ulster and not Afghanistan, or any other theatre that our political masters chose to send professional soldiers into. It's to remember members of the public who were conscripted during the two major conflicts of the 20th century.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    I have never been accosted by anybody, strangers or otherwise for not wearing a poppy. I would find it incredibly odd if it were to happen when I was out for a quiet stroll. Yet apparently itís common.
    I was just about to post the same. I havenít worn a poppy in at least 20 years and Iíve never even had it mentioned by anyone.

  10. #9
    @hibs.net private member Hibs Class's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    It seems every year brings a new controversy or new story surrounding the national symbol of Remembrance.

    I find myself balking a little at how the symbol and meaning behind the poppy has become utterly *******ised in recent years. It's no longer simply a symbol of those who fought and gave up their lives in conflicts of yore. The historical link back to WW1 is almost now redundant for many, and instead, the poppy has come to symbolise a proper national/military 'pride' in many quarters. I find myself incredibly uncomfortable by the expansion of poppy 'retail'. In Glasgow just now, there are 'poppy up' shops, where you can now buy not just a standard poppy for a jacket, or a poppy on a wooden cross to be planted in memoriam...you can also buy 'poppy merchandise', including t-shirts, hats, scarves, jumpers, flags and all sorts of other stuff. To me, that's a garish step-change from what should be a very sombre, and personal expression for people at this time of the year.

    In addition to an increasing range of poppy merchandise, I also feel increasingly uncomfortable with the attitudes and judgement toward those who aren't wearing one, and the increasing push to wear them earlier and earlier every year as if it somehow elevates your moral stature a little. I took my 6 month old a walk in her pram this afternoon, and on my way out of the house, grabbed the first jacket I could put my hand on - upon passing those selling poppies, I was greeted with '...I see you're choosing not to wear a poppy - do you want to buy one?'. As it turns out, I do have one - it's just on my jacket I tend to wear going to work through the week, but I paused and asked that guy why he went right to attacking my choice not to wear one, and he said he was insulted by fewer and fewer people wearing them in today's culture, clear that people no longer did care, and that 'Lest we forget' was becoming nothing more than a seasonal phrase.

    On the other side of that coin, watching MOTD earlier, I was quite 'pleased' (for lack of a better word) to see many of the German players in the EPL wearing a poppy on their shirt and observing the minute's silence. I first noticed Jurgen Klopp in his interview and thought it was very forward looking. Yet despite the fact that every single German player in the league wore one today, James McClean continued his stance against wearing one...and I can't quite explain why, given my aversion to 'poppy fascism', but that makes me somewhat uncomfortable (something I'm currently reflecting on, to determine whether I am actually bothered or not...).

    I say all of this as someone who always observes Remembrance day. Despite my concerns and discomfort, I do wear a poppy. I will attend a Remembrance service next Sunday (and whenever our work hosts one through this coming week). I say it as someone who's visited the Battlefields of Belgium and France, stood at some of the most poignant, eerie landscapes in Europe and marvelled at the lingering sense of death all around. I say this as someone who remains incredibly proud to have read Binyon's 'For the Fallen' at a ceremony under the Menin Gate in Ypres when I visited with a school group back in 2000, and I say all of the above as someone who has a proud family history of serving their country, including two family members who's names are displayed within Tynecot cemetery.

    I just feel we're eroding something that should be a poignant, and thoughtful period with a growing attitude of expectancy, judgement and exploitation.
    Excellent post. On James McClean I've had a similar view in previous years, however I've found myself looking at it differently this year, in the wake of the NFL players' take the knee protest. Supporting their right to protest, I think it would be hypocritical to then criticise McClean for essentially exercising the same right.
    ​#PERSEVERED


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    @hibs.net private member Aldo's Avatar
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    I am ex forces and I wear my poppy with pride. I also respect those who chose not to wear one. It is a personal decision after all and I donít see the big fuss at those who donít want to wear one.

    What I do take offence to is someone telling me I cannot wear one incase it offends someone who doesnít believe in the reasons for wearing one.


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    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldo View Post
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    I am ex forces and I wear my poppy with pride. I also respect those who chose not to wear one. It is a personal decision after all and I donít see the big fuss at those who donít want to wear one.

    What I do take offence to is someone telling me I cannot wear one incase it offends someone who doesnít believe in the reasons for wearing one.


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    Does that ever happen? That's a completely new scenario to me in all this.

    I don't go out of my way to check, but I walked through town and back today and don't remember seeing anyone wearing a poppy. I'm sure some were and I've missed it, but it couldn't have been prevalent.
    Mon the Hibs.

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    @hibs.net private member sleeping giant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    Does that ever happen? That's a completely new scenario to me in all this.

    I don't go out of my way to check, but I walked through town and back today and don't remember seeing anyone wearing a poppy. I'm sure some were and I've missed it, but it couldn't have been prevalent.
    I see it all over Facebook too.

    "I'll wear it with pride and don't care if it offends"

    Who exactly does it offend ? I've never heard or seen anybody being offended by it.

    Then there are some of the comments on the other thread .

    "Ignoring the dead If you don't wear one "
    "People should be forced to wear one"

    People have turned it into a farce.

    I remember when it was quietly remembered .
    Not much chance of that now.
    Last edited by sleeping giant; 06-11-2017 at 09:51 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sleeping giant View Post
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    I see it all over Facebook too.

    "Ignoring the dead If you don't wear one "
    "People should be forced to wear one"

    People have turned it into a farce.
    Yup, my Granfathers were keen to risk their lives to fight for the right to force people to do things against their will!! That was the whole point, wasnít it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    I have never been accosted by anybody, strangers or otherwise for not wearing a poppy. I would find it incredibly odd if it were to happen when I was out for a quiet stroll. Yet apparently it’s common.
    I don't think it's something that is common in the street.

    However I think like many of the reactive attitudes that exist nowadays social media fuels the fires. There's an aggressive minority who appear to want to turn the poppy into a jingoistic and nationalist symbol. There is an amusing irony in people sharing Britain First photos telling people who are offended by poppies to 'get out' though. Equally I think in our increasingly celebrity obsessed world people like Barbara Windsor telling people who don't wear a poppy to 'sod off' isn't helpful.

    I truly believe the vast majority of people who wear the poppy choose to do so for the 'right' reasons. The loud minority do make me uncomfortable though. I've argued for some time that increasingly political decisions and world views are being shaped by generations who have never experienced a truly horrific global conflict and it would be sad if that environment taints the symbolism of the poppy.
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    @hibs.net private member IWasThere2016's Avatar
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    I've always worn one and always will. I visited the Somme last June - when travelling from Paris to Lille. I went to Albert and Thiepval. The sight of the graves and poppies will live for me forever.

    I traveled with two Republicans (one Irish and ex-IRA senior, another a Scottish Cellic fan) and a NI Protestant Loyalist - ROI shirts and NI shirts were worn.

    We visited the Ulster, and passed the Irish, memorial site outside Albert.

    Tens of thousands of Irish wore the British uniform, fought and died in the Great War.

    There was a memorial last year in Dublin to commemorate 100 years passing. I am sure poppies were worn and wreaths laid.

    https://www.independent.ie/breaking-...-34870130.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    It seems every year brings a new controversy or new story surrounding the national symbol of Remembrance.

    I find myself balking a little at how the symbol and meaning behind the poppy has become utterly *******ised in recent years. It's no longer simply a symbol of those who fought and gave up their lives in conflicts of yore. The historical link back to WW1 is almost now redundant for many, and instead, the poppy has come to symbolise a proper national/military 'pride' in many quarters. I find myself incredibly uncomfortable by the expansion of poppy 'retail'. In Glasgow just now, there are 'poppy up' shops, where you can now buy not just a standard poppy for a jacket, or a poppy on a wooden cross to be planted in memoriam...you can also buy 'poppy merchandise', including t-shirts, hats, scarves, jumpers, flags and all sorts of other stuff. To me, that's a garish step-change from what should be a very sombre, and personal expression for people at this time of the year.

    In addition to an increasing range of poppy merchandise, I also feel increasingly uncomfortable with the attitudes and judgement toward those who aren't wearing one, and the increasing push to wear them earlier and earlier every year as if it somehow elevates your moral stature a little. I took my 6 month old a walk in her pram this afternoon, and on my way out of the house, grabbed the first jacket I could put my hand on - upon passing those selling poppies, I was greeted with '...I see you're choosing not to wear a poppy - do you want to buy one?'. As it turns out, I do have one - it's just on my jacket I tend to wear going to work through the week, but I paused and asked that guy why he went right to attacking my choice not to wear one, and he said he was insulted by fewer and fewer people wearing them in today's culture, clear that people no longer did care, and that 'Lest we forget' was becoming nothing more than a seasonal phrase.

    On the other side of that coin, watching MOTD earlier, I was quite 'pleased' (for lack of a better word) to see many of the German players in the EPL wearing a poppy on their shirt and observing the minute's silence. I first noticed Jurgen Klopp in his interview and thought it was very forward looking. Yet despite the fact that every single German player in the league wore one today, James McClean continued his stance against wearing one...and I can't quite explain why, given my aversion to 'poppy fascism', but that makes me somewhat uncomfortable (something I'm currently reflecting on, to determine whether I am actually bothered or not...).

    I say all of this as someone who always observes Remembrance day. Despite my concerns and discomfort, I do wear a poppy. I will attend a Remembrance service next Sunday (and whenever our work hosts one through this coming week). I say it as someone who's visited the Battlefields of Belgium and France, stood at some of the most poignant, eerie landscapes in Europe and marvelled at the lingering sense of death all around. I say this as someone who remains incredibly proud to have read Binyon's 'For the Fallen' at a ceremony under the Menin Gate in Ypres when I visited with a school group back in 2000, and I say all of the above as someone who has a proud family history of serving their country, including two family members who's names are displayed within Tynecot cemetery.

    I just feel we're eroding something that should be a poignant, and thoughtful period with a growing attitude of expectancy, judgement and exploitation.
    Totally agree, well said.

    Well thought out, very eloquently put.

    I also agree with your point about Germans wearing the poppy in English football and comparing them to James McClean.

    I'm glad you're not getting the same sort of reaction that I got when I expressed a similar view.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    On the other side of that coin, watching MOTD earlier, I was quite 'pleased' (for lack of a better word) to see many of the German players in the EPL wearing a poppy on their shirt and observing the minute's silence. I first noticed Jurgen Klopp in his interview and thought it was very forward looking. Yet despite the fact that every single German player in the league wore one today, James McClean continued his stance against wearing one...and I can't quite explain why, given my aversion to 'poppy fascism', but that makes me somewhat uncomfortable (something I'm currently reflecting on, to determine whether I am actually bothered or not...).
    In what way was Klopp's wearing a poppy "forward looking"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    In what way was Klopp's wearing a poppy "forward looking"?
    He had it wedged between his cheeks, suggestively

  20. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    In what way was Klopp's wearing a poppy "forward looking"?
    Most interviews are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    In what way was Klopp's wearing a poppy "forward looking"?
    He was, literally, looking forward. Obviously.

  22. #21
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    People should be free to wear the poppy or not without judgement.

    Everyone has their reasons for wearing one or not. I don't wear one myself and haven't done so probably for 20 years odds.

    What I do think there's no need for is the merchandise that goes with Remembrance Day. A onesie, pizza, commemorative poppy seed bagel and oversized house decorations are all ones I've seen. Sometimes the gratuitous use of poppy imagery is daft like displays in shops and the like. Also think people having no choice whether on TV, working somewhere or even playing for a football team. The James MacLeans and (I noticed) the Tony Stokes of this world should be free to opt in or out without prejudice.
    Last edited by steakbake; 09-11-2017 at 11:41 PM.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    He had it wedged between his cheeks, suggestively

    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    Most interviews are.
    The most famous interviews ever weren't.
    Quote Originally Posted by SunshineOnLeith View Post
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    He was, literally, looking forward. Obviously.
    What, literally, his chair was facing the future? In the precise direction of the earth's forward rotation? You know this how?

  24. #23
    @hibs.net proletariat member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    The James MacLeans and (I noticed) the Tony Stokes of this world should be free to opt in or out without prejudice.


    Itís time to stop judging. Those who still do should open their minds.

    Personally, I havenít really worn one regularly since the pins were taken out and replaced by plastic stalks (what are you meant to do with that?) and stickers. Nothing to do with taking a stand against modern health and safety regulations, itís just purely about convenience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Personally, I havenít really worn one regularly since the pins were taken out and replaced by plastic stalks (what are you meant to do with that?) and stickers.
    re plastic stalks, I thought you still got a pin, I weave the pin laterally across my top/lapel and poke the stalk down the back of the pin, the little green "branch" then latches behind the pin,,,,at least that's the only way I figured it out to work.

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    The commercialisation of the poppy has now mutated the simple symbolism of remembrance into a razzamatazz fest of who can display the tackiest souvenir shop type of article and thus diminishing its original meaning, much like Christmas is now all about trees, lights and Santa and Easter is about chocolate, the poppy has now become a symbol of patriotic nationalism.

  27. #26
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    I opt for the white 'Peace' poppy. #justsayin'
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member HiBremian's Avatar
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    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/p...ance-day-poppy

    Interesting read.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  29. #28
    First Team Regular over the line's Avatar
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    I always give money to the poppy collectors, but haven't taken a poppy off them for years. Last week I gave some money to my youngest lad to take to school and told him to get one for himself, but not for me, as I would rather them have the extra bit of money. He got a wrist band thing, which is a bit of a modern version of a poppy I suppose and that is fine. I never take anything off the charity vendors of any description, as I think the money can be better spent on the cause, rather then a badge or whatever. I get the symbolism of the poppy (and as with most people, have grandparents and great grandparents who fought in both world wars) and obviously have no problem with people wearing them, but just not for me. I do agree it is getting a bit over the top in some ways and becoming a bit of a "badge of honour" competition for some people, who can have the biggest or most elaborate.

  30. #29
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/p...ance-day-poppy

    Interesting read.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Some more here, and regardless of your politics, it is a view shared by a lot of people.

    https://greens.scot/blog/why-i-choos...-a-white-poppy
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  31. #30
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Some more here, and regardless of your politics, it is a view shared by a lot of people.

    https://greens.scot/blog/why-i-choos...-a-white-poppy
    Good article although the cynic in me wonders how long will it be before some bam pops up and accuses white poppy wearers as being some sort of racists. I also agree with the point about the connection with arms manufacturers although I would suggest that they, the arms manufacturers, are to some extent a necessary evil as even pacifists must surely realise that peace along with freedom is maintained when you have adequate military strength to defend it.

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