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  1. #1
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Drunk drivers could potentially face life in prison

    Been a long time coming.

    https://www.google.de/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2017/oct/14/drivers-who-kill-may-now-face-life-sentence


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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    That's not an article about drivers drinking, it's about drivers killing.

  4. #3
    Coaching Staff HUTCHYHIBBY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Been a long time coming.

    https://www.google.de/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/law/2017/oct/14/drivers-who-kill-may-now-face-life-sentence
    Quite right too, I was having a conversation with my old man about this a couple of weeks ago and we both came to the conclusion that if you wanted to kill someone and receive a relatively light sentence a car seemed to be the weapon of choice (we're not planning on killing anyone anytime soon)! :-)

  5. #4
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    That's not an article about drivers drinking, it's about drivers killing.
    But it encompasses drink drivers. If you get behind the wheel of a car drunk or intoxicated, you've made a conscious decision to risk the lives of others for your own convenience. That's premeditated and if you actually kill someone then there is now a sentence available to take that premeditation into account. Same for those using their phones.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    But it encompasses drink drivers. If you get behind the wheel of a car drunk or intoxicated, you've made a conscious decision to risk the lives of others for your own convenience. That's premeditated and if you actually kill someone then there is now a sentence available to take that premeditation into account. Same for those using their phones.
    Agree, just think it's always a mistake to suggest, emphasise or even slightly hint that alcohol in the blood = unsafe driver and no alcohol in the blood = safe driver. The punishments for killer drivers who have had no alcohol in the blood have in the past been scandalous - let's hope these new powers are well used.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    But it encompasses drink drivers. If you get behind the wheel of a car drunk or intoxicated, you've made a conscious decision to risk the lives of others for your own convenience. That's premeditated and if you actually kill someone then there is now a sentence available to take that premeditation into account. Same for those using their phones.
    I've never really understood why there's such a focus on the outcome rather than the behaviour itself? Surely the offence of recklessly endangering life while driving drunk is the same whether or not you actually hit someone and kill them?

    Or attempted murder, you get a lesser sentence bonus for being crap at murdering.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    I've never really understood why there's such a focus on the outcome rather than the behaviour itself? Surely the offence of recklessly endangering life while driving drunk is the same whether or not you actually hit someone and kill them?

    Or attempted murder, you get a lesser sentence bonus for being crap at murdering.
    Or recklessly endangering life while driving not drunk. Otherwise .

  9. #8
    Coaching Staff heretoday's Avatar
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    People need to be far more aware of the dangers on the road. I cannot believe some of the behaviour out there and not just drunks or phone users. It's mostly blokes of course. I'm sure a lot of them would be appalled if they could see themselves.

  10. #9
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    I remember watching something a while ago that talked about drivers behaviour, it basically said that people drive the way they do now because they feel so safe behind the wheel of their car. Years ago before things like airbags and other safety features, people drove much more sensibly as a crash was far more likely to leave the driver injured or killed. There was a name for it, but I canít remember what it was. Obviously this was talking about normal driving, rather than drink driving.

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  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I remember watching something a while ago that talked about drivers behaviour, it basically said that people drive the way they do now because they feel so safe behind the wheel of their car. Years ago before things like airbags and other safety features, people drove much more sensibly as a crash was far more likely to leave the driver injured or killed. There was a name for it, but I can’t remember what it was. Obviously this was talking about normal driving, rather than drink driving.
    Risk compensation?

  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Thatís the one.

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  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I remember watching something a while ago that talked about drivers behaviour, it basically said that people drive the way they do now because they feel so safe behind the wheel of their car. Years ago before things like airbags and other safety features, people drove much more sensibly as a crash was far more likely to leave the driver injured or killed. There was a name for it, but I canít remember what it was. Obviously this was talking about normal driving, rather than drink driving.
    Yet I think the number of road fatalities has fallen dramatically has it not?

    Seems disingenuous to suggest that people are driving significantly more dangerously now than before when the long term trend seems to be down and deaths are about a quarter of what it was in the 60's despite a massive increase in traffic.

    The stats can be disputed due to them being stats so they are only as good as the method of collection but none the less the perception that people drove much more sensibly before safety features and much more recklessly now just doesn't bear any scrutiny when looking at death or casualty figures.

    A government report (admittedly from 2013 but the trend has continued down since then) claims:

    Since 1990:

    66% reduction in deaths

    62% reduction in casualties


    And before we think that it's just cars protecting people the number of pedestrian deaths and injuries have more than halved in the last two decades.

    So in other words despite the rise and rise of traffic the roads have become safer for all users.

    That's not to say that some of the sentences for dangerous driving have been too light but on the flip side there is not a huge rise in such driving so there is a question as to what the life sentence approach is trying to address...

  14. #13
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Yet I think the number of road fatalities has fallen dramatically has it not?

    Seems disingenuous to suggest that people are driving significantly more dangerously now than before when the long term trend seems to be down and deaths are about a quarter of what it was in the 60's despite a massive increase in traffic.

    The stats can be disputed due to them being stats so they are only as good as the method of collection but none the less the perception that people drove much more sensibly before safety features and much more recklessly now just doesn't bear any scrutiny when looking at death or casualty figures.

    A government report (admittedly from 2013 but the trend has continued down since then) claims:

    Since 1990:

    66% reduction in deaths

    62% reduction in casualties


    And before we think that it's just cars protecting people the number of pedestrian deaths and injuries have more than halved in the last two decades.

    So in other words despite the rise and rise of traffic the roads have become safer for all users.

    That's not to say that some of the sentences for dangerous driving have been too light but on the flip side there is not a huge rise in such driving so there is a question as to what the life sentence approach is trying to address...
    The reduction in the number of deaths has been put down to things like seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones etc. Iím sure the thing I watched mentioned the number of deaths of cyclists had risen significantly since the introduction of all these safety features.
    Im not saying I agree with it, but it was interesting viewing.

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  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    there is a question as to what the life sentence approach is trying to address...
    Possibly hoping to undermine the whole notion of road traffic "accidents", and make it clearer that deaths are almost always not chance events at all but rather a direct consequence of bad driving.

  16. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    Possibly hoping to undermine the whole notion of road traffic "accidents", and make it clearer that deaths are almost always not chance events at all but rather a direct consequence of bad driving.
    Fair enough but I suppose the 14 years you can already go down for the offence might already suggest that?

    Ach I'm not against someone being put down for a long time for being a drunk driver and a killer I suppose I'm just wary of politicians using higher sentencing as some sort of solution.

    Seems to me it's more like the courts are simply giving too light a sentence for these offences already and if they are the equivalent of manslaughter then why not just charge people with that already? The cynic in me thinks that maybe the PF or the CPS go for the driving offence because it saves the effort of having to go for the tougher conviction?

    Then again now that I think about it maybe it does then make sense just to level the sentences 🤣

  17. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The reduction in the number of deaths has been put down to things like seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones etc. Iím sure the thing I watched mentioned the number of deaths of cyclists had risen significantly since the introduction of all these safety features.
    Im not saying I agree with it, but it was interesting viewing.
    Cool ''tis indeed maybe the case then

  18. #17
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The reduction in the number of deaths has been put down to things like seatbelts, airbags, crumple zones etc. Iím sure the thing I watched mentioned the number of deaths of cyclists had risen significantly since the introduction of all these safety features.
    Im not saying I agree with it, but it was interesting viewing.
    I would suggest that the increase in cyclist deaths is more likely due to the increase in the no. of cyclists using the roads.

  19. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    I would suggest that the increase in cyclist deaths is more likely due to the increase in the no. of cyclists using the roads.
    Risk compensation. Cars are getting so safe internally that drivers are having to take to the road on bikes to get the same chance of dying they had before.

  20. #19
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    I would suggest that the increase in cyclist deaths is more likely due to the increase in the no. of cyclists using the roads.
    Would the number of cars on the road not have increased by a similar amount?

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  21. #20
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    Would the number of cars on the road not have increased by a similar amount?
    It's a good point however, the safety measures, speed restrictions and volume are IMO, the reasons for that not being the case. I'm quite sure the volume of cyclist has increased dramatically without any speed restrictions or safety measures imposed. Except of course, the wearing of a helmet (which I don't think is mandatory yet), However, I believe having a working bell on your bike is.

  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    It's a good point however, the safety measures, speed restrictions and volume are IMO, the reasons for that not being the case. I'm quite sure the volume of cyclist has increased dramatically without any speed restrictions or safety measures imposed. Except of course, the wearing of a helmet (which I don't think is mandatory yet), However, I believe having a working bell on your bike is.

    I *think* the bell situation is that the shop/supplier have to sell it to you with a working bell, the owner/user is at liberty to remove this without penalty however.

    Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

  23. #22
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    I *think* the bell situation is that the shop/supplier have to sell it to you with a working bell, the owner/user is at liberty to remove this without penalty however.

    Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
    C'rect

    https://www.eta.co.uk/cycling-and-the-law/

    I've always used my bell, but it's often ineffective when other road or path-users are plugged-in, hard of hearing, or just not listening. Indeed, many have expressed surprise that I have a bell at all; that says to me that bells are not the norm.

  24. #23
    Scottish Cup Victory - Witness 2016 Scouse Hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    Would the number of cars on the road not have increased by a similar amount?
    You could say the same about petrol stations yet loads have disappeared.
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  25. #24
    Scottish Cup Victory - Witness 2016 Scouse Hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    I *think* the bell situation is that the shop/supplier have to sell it to you with a working bell, the owner/user is at liberty to remove this without penalty however.

    Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.
    Nearly every bike I see has a bell end on the saddle.😅

  26. #25
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    Drunk drivers could potentially face life in prison

    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    I would suggest that the increase in cyclist deaths is more likely due to the increase in the no. of cyclists using the roads.
    Using a 'per billion miles' metric cycling deaths have shown a similar trend to everything else.... down massively from around 160 in the late 60's to around 30 now.

    The same for KSI stats although recently they did tick up a touch but still dramatically down over the last few decades.

    In other words despite roads being busier and traffic heavier the long term trend has been that they have become safer for all and dramatically so.

  27. #26
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibby View Post
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    Nearly every bike I see has a bell end on the saddle.😅



  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member Aldo's Avatar
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    On the subject of driving whilst using a hand held mobile phone/device..... Iím of the opinion that the fines and points given are not enough given the serious outcome/consequences should it go terribly wrong!

    The young driver who was sentenced to 6 years in jail for losing control of his vehicle whilst texting and in doing this killing the 2 or 3 year old and seriously injuring another.

    He will be out after 3 and yes will have to live with it the rest of his life but at least he will get to live the rest of his life.

    1 mistake has ruined so many lives yet drivers still donít get it.

    I for one welcome the changes but I think it will take a while before we see any changes in driver attitudes!


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  29. #28
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Next time you're out and about have a conscious look at how many people are using mobiles whilst driving.

  30. #29
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    Risk compensation. Cars are getting so safe internally that drivers are having to take to the road on bikes to get the same chance of dying they had before.
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  31. #30
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY View Post
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    Quite right too, I was having a conversation with my old man about this a couple of weeks ago and we both came to the conclusion that if you wanted to kill someone and receive a relatively light sentence a car seemed to be the weapon of choice (we're not planning on killing anyone anytime soon)! :-)
    Youíd be wrong then. If you INTENDED to kill someone, weapon used is largely irrelevant.

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