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  1. #31
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    I'd welcome higher taxes, especially council tax, and I'm happy to pay my way.

    Just as long as the money is spent wisely. It is heartbreaking to see the state of so many public facilities in this city. We can either continue to accept the decline, delude ourselves that someone else is going to pay, or we can dig deep.

    I don't freak out about higher taxes the way the Tory press do.


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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Well we are already seeing the impact of increased devolution. Higher taxes are already here with more to come. The concept that Indy would lead to even higher taxation as Scotland tried to balance its books doesn't look like it was all Project Fear fiction after all.

    Again it's all down to interpretation ...things getting worse may be palatable if there is evidence that they will subsequently get better. The Indy campaign failed to convince the majority that would be what would happen. People saw the risk / reward trade off and simply didn't fancy it...and who can blame them for that?

    Oh and I know a lot of people still blame a biased media etc etc but really I think (anecdotal, personal opinion!) it was more down to the ruinous unpreparedness of Salmond and co. on just what Indy actually meant that resulted in the majority voting No.
    You're conflating 2 very different things there: higher taxes being considered now would give Scotland (even) higher public spending than in England as a political choice. It's nothing to do with the notional "deficit".

  4. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Another fallacy

    Base rate in Scotland is 20% same as England.
    Higher rate in Scotland is 40% same as England
    Additional Rate in Scotland is 45% same as England

    Taxes are no different to other parts of the UK
    The income level at which the 40% rate kicks in is different though. So higher rate taxpayers pay about £400 more.

    But council tax is (on average) cheaper, so individual taxpayers don't necessarily pay a higher total figure than in England.

  5. #34
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The income level at which the 40% rate kicks in is different though. So higher rate taxpayers pay about £400 more.

    But council tax is (on average) cheaper, so individual taxpayers don't necessarily pay a higher total figure than in England.
    I know all that, JMS , I was just pointing out that the Higher Tax Rates are not, which is the impression that was given in the post I replied to.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  6. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    I know all that, JMS , I was just pointing out that the Higher Tax Rates are not, which is the impression that was given in the post I replied to.
    Ah, ok. I'll shut up then.

  7. #36
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Ah, ok. I'll shut up then.
    Please don't, we value your opinions.

    well, some of us do
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Another fallacy

    Base rate in Scotland is 20% same as England.
    Higher rate in Scotland is 40% same as England
    Additional Rate in Scotland is 45% same as England

    Taxes are no different to other parts of the UK
    Sorry but it's not a fallacy and trying to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

    Just quoting tax rates makes no sense of you don't also quote the bands they are levied against.

    It's very very simple. If you are a 40% tax payer in Scotland your income tax is higher than in England.

    Also there is a Scottish Government proposal on various other plans to raise income tax....so income tax is already higher and heading higher again.

  9. #38
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Well we are already seeing the impact of increased devolution. Higher taxes are already here with more to come. The concept that Indy would lead to even higher taxation as Scotland tried to balance its books doesn't look like it was all Project Fear fiction after all.

    Again it's all down to interpretation ...things getting worse may be palatable if there is evidence that they will subsequently get better. The Indy campaign failed to convince the majority that would be what would happen. People saw the risk / reward trade off and simply didn't fancy it...and who can blame them for that?

    Oh and I know a lot of people still blame a biased media etc etc but really I think (anecdotal, personal opinion!) it was more down to the ruinous unpreparedness of Salmond and co. on just what Indy actually meant that resulted in the majority voting No.
    I wasnít trying to make an argument for independence. My point was that if things were to worsen after Brexit and an independence referendum was called, would the voters trust the no campaign again?

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  10. #39
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Sorry but it's not a fallacy and trying to pretend otherwise is disingenuous.

    Just quoting tax rates makes no sense of you don't also quote the bands they are levied against.

    It's very very simple. If you are a 40% tax payer in Scotland your income tax is higher than in England.

    Also there is a Scottish Government proposal on various other plans to raise income tax....so income tax is already higher and heading higher again.
    I seem to recall that our taxes remained the same, it was just in England that they were reduced.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    I seem to recall that our taxes remained the same, it was just in England that they were reduced.
    Nope that's not correct either. The tax bands are moved to account for inflation...not moving them effectively lowers the threshold and increases the tax.

    Fiscal drag, a governments favourite tool for increasing taxation. Just look at how many people paid 40% tax in 1990 about 1 in 15, now it's something like 1 in 6. Are you seriously trying to say that not raising thresholds does not increase taxes?

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I wasnít trying to make an argument for independence. My point was that if things were to worsen after Brexit and an independence referendum was called, would the voters trust the no campaign again?
    It's a fair point and it's definitely an angle but but I suppose my (poorly made) one was that in my opinion it wasn't about people trusting the No campaign it was more the fact the Yes campaign failed to 'sell the dream'.

    In other words even a U.K. Going through post Brexit pains will not make the case for Indy that needs to be able to be a stand alone argument (in all senses!)...

    Anyway it's a hard one to predict and who knows where the political mood will be in Scotland and rUK post Brexit and post Scottish tax rises

  13. #42
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I wasnít trying to make an argument for independence. My point was that if things were to worsen after Brexit and an independence referendum was called, would the voters trust the no campaign again?
    What do you define as 'worsening' type conditions for people? What has to happen to make people feel like we need another Scottish Independence Referendum after Brexit, assuming it does go bad?

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    What do you define as 'worsening' type conditions for people? What has to happen to make people feel like we need another Scottish Independence Referendum after Brexit, assuming it does go bad?
    Id say that reality has to be worse than the risk of indy. Obviously that means different things to different people.

    Although the mess of Brexit might also convince people that an even tougher unravelling between Scotland and the UK isnt worth it?

    Its an interesting discussion.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Id say that reality has to be worse than the risk of indy. Obviously that means different things to different people.

    Although the mess of Brexit might also convince people that an even tougher unravelling between Scotland and the UK isnt worth it?

    Its an interesting discussion.
    It's really hard to define what worsening conditions are, there may be stats that show us certain things but it's a very personal thing. I don't think a 'bad' Brexit is going to suddenly make people shout for another independence referendum.

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    It's really hard to define what worsening conditions are, there may be stats that show us certain things but it's a very personal thing. I don't think a 'bad' Brexit is going to suddenly make people shout for another independence referendum.
    True its very subjective. I agree it wont cause a sudden clamour, but if you accept the premise that people dont want indy because of the risks associated with it, amything that makes those risks less, or makes the alternative more risky, will alter that balance.

    However while i do agree to an extent with that premise, i dont think it tells the full story.

  17. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    True its very subjective. I agree it wont cause a sudden clamour, but if you accept the premise that people dont want indy because of the risks associated with it, amything that makes those risks less, or makes the alternative more risky, will alter that balance.

    However while i do agree to an extent with that premise, i dont think it tells the full story.
    Or the risk will make it even worse.

  18. #47
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    What do you define as 'worsening' type conditions for people? What has to happen to make people feel like we need another Scottish Independence Referendum after Brexit, assuming it does go bad?
    Job losses would be an obvious one.

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  19. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    It's a fair point and it's definitely an angle but but I suppose my (poorly made) one was that in my opinion it wasn't about people trusting the No campaign it was more the fact the Yes campaign failed to 'sell the dream'.

    In other words even a U.K. Going through post Brexit pains will not make the case for Indy that needs to be able to be a stand alone argument (in all senses!)...

    Anyway it's a hard one to predict and who knows where the political mood will be in Scotland and rUK post Brexit and post Scottish tax rises
    You paint tax raises out as being a terrible thing. Measured raises and a bit more transparency about what the money is going towards wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion.
    Mon the Hibs.

  20. #49
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    It's a fair point and it's definitely an angle but but I suppose my (poorly made) one was that in my opinion it wasn't about people trusting the No campaign it was more the fact the Yes campaign failed to 'sell the dream'.

    In other words even a U.K. Going through post Brexit pains will not make the case for Indy that needs to be able to be a stand alone argument (in all senses!)...

    Anyway it's a hard one to predict and who knows where the political mood will be in Scotland and rUK post Brexit and post Scottish tax rises
    I donít think itís inconceivable that we could have businesses on the side of independence in a future independence referendum as they may see it as a route back into the EU. Also EU nationals could also be thinking along the same lines.
    As you say though itís impossible to predict, for all we know Brexit could be a success and other European countries might follow us out of the EU.

    GIRLS DONT LIKE BOYS GIRLS LIKE SIMON MURRAY

  21. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    You paint tax raises out as being a terrible thing. Measured raises and a bit more transparency about what the money is going towards wouldn't be a bad thing in my opinion.
    Some people think that, others hate them.

    The difficulty is if the people who alreadycsupport Yes that, generally, would support tax rises.

    A lot.of the people yes need to win around to win, traditionally dont.

    Obviously thats a generalisation, but.it shows why politics is difficult and why the centre ground, normally, rules.

    Also, the tax profil in scotland is v different to england, and so the tax burden falls mostly on middle classes, who are not 'rich' in the classic 'tax the rich' sense.

    I believe scotland only has 20,000 upper rate tax payers - very easy for them to their domicile to england.

  22. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I donít think itís inconceivable that we could have businesses on the side of independence in a future independence referendum as they may see it as a route back into the EU. Also EU nationals could also be thinking along the same lines.
    As you say though itís impossible to predict, for all we know Brexit could be a success and other European countries might follow us out of the EU.
    Agree - we really are, more than ever, sailig in uncharted waters.

    I tjink it could conceivably go in any direction.

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