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    Would You Vote For A Party or Politician who Admitted They Got It Wrong?

    I was reading an article on the BBC today about a report prepared by the Royal College of Nursing following canvassing of front line staff that highlights several issues with the service the NHS is providing.

    There were several issues raised including elderly patients dying alone, medication being given late, nurses being moved to departments they were unqualified or felt unable to work in and child patients missing meals as other cases had to be prioritised. There was a general agreement among the 30 000 people surveyed felt the service was understaffed.

    The response from both Holyrood and Westminster was as you would expect. 'record investment', '10000 new jobs', 'leading the UK' and so on. It's tired rhetoric and spin dismissing the real concerns of front line workers, in essence they are being ignored. It's the kind of stuff that actually turns me off politics as opposed to making a party seem more appealing. I would have far more respect and inclination to vote for a party that put their hands up and admitted the strategy we have been following for a decade or more has failed and continues to fail. There's such an obsession with throwing numbers and monetary figures at people that it begins to lose all meaning. Ultimately all of it means nothing if it doesn't result in a better end product.
    I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women,. Suddenly, uncritically giving no thought to the pain it could bring. - Nick Hornby


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    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I was reading an article on the BBC today about a report prepared by the Royal College of Nursing following canvassing of front line staff that highlights several issues with the service the NHS is providing.

    There were several issues raised including elderly patients dying alone, medication being given late, nurses being moved to departments they were unqualified or felt unable to work in and child patients missing meals as other cases had to be prioritised. There was a general agreement among the 30 000 people surveyed felt the service was understaffed.

    The response from both Holyrood and Westminster was as you would expect. 'record investment', '10000 new jobs', 'leading the UK' and so on. It's tired rhetoric and spin dismissing the real concerns of front line workers, in essence they are being ignored. It's the kind of stuff that actually turns me off politics as opposed to making a party seem more appealing. I would have far more respect and inclination to vote for a party that put their hands up and admitted the strategy we have been following for a decade or more has failed and continues to fail. There's such an obsession with throwing numbers and monetary figures at people that it begins to lose all meaning. Ultimately all of it means nothing if it doesn't result in a better end product.
    I would definitely vote for a politician that admitted they got it wrong. The problem they face is that such a big thing is made of it by other politicians and the media. They're accused of doing a u turn or being weak.
    Politicians are human like everyone else, and they get things wrong, but we end up with the ridiculous situation of everyone knowing they've got something wrong, but the person responsible will rarely admit it as it's considered political suicide.
    Its no wonder that trust is at an all time low, when the careers of the politician is more important than the good of the people they represent.
    [SIGPIC]

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    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    A politician/party that was inclined to move their point of view in light of new information would be more likely to get my vote; unless they're tories.

    Being Stubborn should not be the admirable quality that many (or several, I forget the right term these days) believe it to be.
    Mon the Hibs.

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    So you admit you got XXX wrong.

    What else have you got wrong?

    How can we trust you with this important matter?

    etc etc etc
    Buy nothing online unless you check for free cashback here first. I've already earned £1,789.68!



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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    A politician/party that was inclined to move their point of view in light of new information would be more likely to get my vote
    And that's the usual approach.

    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    many (or several, I forget the right term these days) believe it to be.


    A safe word would be "some".

    "A number" may be even safer.
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    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I was reading an article on the BBC today about a report prepared by the Royal College of Nursing following canvassing of front line staff that highlights several issues with the service the NHS is providing.

    There were several issues raised including elderly patients dying alone, medication being given late, nurses being moved to departments they were unqualified or felt unable to work in and child patients missing meals as other cases had to be prioritised. There was a general agreement among the 30 000 people surveyed felt the service was understaffed.

    The response from both Holyrood and Westminster was as you would expect. 'record investment', '10000 new jobs', 'leading the UK' and so on. It's tired rhetoric and spin dismissing the real concerns of front line workers, in essence they are being ignored. It's the kind of stuff that actually turns me off politics as opposed to making a party seem more appealing. I would have far more respect and inclination to vote for a party that put their hands up and admitted the strategy we have been following for a decade or more has failed and continues to fail. There's such an obsession with throwing numbers and monetary figures at people that it begins to lose all meaning. Ultimately all of it means nothing if it doesn't result in a better end product.
    The problem with the NHS is that as far as I can remember all of the political parties stand for exactly the same thing - promise the Earth, scandalously underfund it and hang out the people trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear providing the service to dry. None of the political parties, either at Westminster or Holyrood have a shred of integrity when it comes to the NHS - it is a political football to be hoofed from one to the other for cheap point scoring, whilst pissing about with a ridiculously important matter - people's health.

    I quite like some of what Corbyn is saying - he is actually offering a genuine "tax and spend" solution for you to either like or dislike, but he's not pretending the status quo is adequate.

    As a flipside, I'd love a political party to come out, say we're going to privatise the bloody lot, save you a lot of money in tax but leave it in your own pockets to make up your own minds what you want to do regarding health. This is a million miles away from what the most recent Conservative, Labour and coalition governments have done with their stealth privatisation. The public are being taken for mugs, and by and large they are just taking it.

    Good healthcare costs money. Someone has to pay for it. Everyone expects everyone else to pay for it. This country needs to have an honest conversation about how it provides healthcare for an ageing population.

    I'm less inclined to worry about who apologises for what they may have got wrong in the past. Every party, every politician, every person has made mistakes and most of the time honest mistakes should be forgiven.

    What is unforgivable is for us all to continue to ignore the current state of the NHS - the great, huge elephant in the room.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    The problem with the NHS is that as far as I can remember all of the political parties stand for exactly the same thing - promise the Earth, scandalously underfund it and hang out the people trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear providing the service to dry. None of the political parties, either at Westminster or Holyrood have a shred of integrity when it comes to the NHS - it is a political football to be hoofed from one to the other for cheap point scoring, whilst pissing about with a ridiculously important matter - people's health.

    I quite like some of what Corbyn is saying - he is actually offering a genuine "tax and spend" solution for you to either like or dislike, but he's not pretending the status quo is adequate.

    As a flipside, I'd love a political party to come out, say we're going to privatise the bloody lot, save you a lot of money in tax but leave it in your own pockets to make up your own minds what you want to do regarding health. This is a million miles away from what the most recent Conservative, Labour and coalition governments have done with their stealth privatisation. The public are being taken for mugs, and by and large they are just taking it.

    Good healthcare costs money. Someone has to pay for it. Everyone expects everyone else to pay for it. This country needs to have an honest conversation about how it provides healthcare for an ageing population.

    I'm less inclined to worry about who apologises for what they may have got wrong in the past. Every party, every politician, every person has made mistakes and most of the time honest mistakes should be forgiven.

    What is unforgivable is for us all to continue to ignore the current state of the NHS - the great, huge elephant in the room.
    That sounds great.... unless your a 4 year old whose parents decide a 50" colour tv, and 40 cigarettes a day take priority over private health insurance.

    My concern for the service is the amount of professional managers who see healthcare as an industry rather than the caring profession that it is.
    Last edited by Geo_1875; 29-09-2017 at 03:01 PM.

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    The SNP sold the independence dream on selling our Oil at around $133 a barrel and obviously they were so far of the mark that Independence would have bankrupt Scotland. They then went on to say Oil was only a bonus to Scotland's economy and the price drop didn't really matter.

    Then only recently Nicola Sturgeon blamed our poor performing economy on the fact that Scotland's economy was heavily reliant on the oil industry and the down turn in oil production was having a big effect on the performance of Scotland's economy.

    Just lying constantly to try and push through independence and then deflecting the blame on their poor performance by blaming the oil downturn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    The SNP sold the independence dream on selling our Oil at around $133 a barrel and obviously they were so far of the mark that Independence would have bankrupt Scotland. They then went on to say Oil was only a bonus to Scotland's economy and the price drop didn't really matter.

    Then only recently Nicola Sturgeon blamed our poor performing economy on the fact that Scotland's economy was heavily reliant on the oil industry and the down turn in oil production was having a big effect on the performance of Scotland's economy.

    Just lying constantly to try and push through independence and then deflecting the blame on their poor performance by blaming the oil downturn.
    And we will be eternally grateful for the broad shoulders of the English Government that keep our good old ship 'Britannia' ruling the waves.

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    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    A politician/party that was inclined to move their point of view in light of new information would be more likely to get my vote; unless they're tories.

    Being Stubborn should not be the admirable quality that many (or several, I forget the right term these days) believe it to be.
    I'd like to say that I agree with this before the heavyweights join the bun fight that's starting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    I'd like to say that I agree with this before the heavyweights join the bun fight that's starting.
    Nick Clegg tried it.

    And as a result, we have lost one of our most able amd decent senior politicians.

    We get the politicians we deserve.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    I'd like to say that I agree with this before the heavyweights join the bun fight that's starting.
    Wait, we have heavyweights?

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    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Nick Clegg tried it.

    And as a result, we have lost one of our most able amd decent senior politicians.

    We get the politicians we deserve.
    Selling his soul?

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    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    That sounds great.... unless your a 4 year old whose parents decide a 50" colour tv, and 40 cigarettes a day take priority over private health insurance.

    My concern for the service is the amount of professional managers who see healthcare as an industry rather than the caring profession that it is.
    Whichever way you look at it though, healthcare is an industry. Equipment needs to be paid for, buildings need to be bought and maintained, staff need to be trained and employed. Doctors, nurses, surgeons, dentists, paramedics, cleaners - it's all very well talking about a caring profession, these people don't go to work if they don't get paid, and it is simply a delusion to look at it any other way. Whether it is funded by taxation, insurance or directly by the person receiving the care at that time - it is an industry.

    The NHS needs more money, but it also needs to do better with the money that it gets. The fact is, the NHS is abused by the politicians who run it, often abused by unscrupulous individuals who work within it, and far too often abused by the people who use it.

    It needs politicians to demand and provide adequate resources. It needs clinicians (and institutions like the Royal College of Nursing) to speak out when they don't have what they need to do their jobs. It needs somebody to bloody do something about people who don't turn up for appointments/ assault medics in A+E etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Selling his soul?
    He apologised for getting it wrong and promising something that they couldnt deliver.

    Thats the kind of thing the OP meant?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Whichever way you look at it though, healthcare is an industry. Equipment needs to be paid for, buildings need to be bought and maintained, staff need to be trained and employed. Doctors, nurses, surgeons, dentists, paramedics, cleaners - it's all very well talking about a caring profession, these people don't go to work if they don't get paid, and it is simply a delusion to look at it any other way. Whether it is funded by taxation, insurance or directly by the person receiving the care at that time - it is an industry.

    The NHS needs more money, but it also needs to do better with the money that it gets. The fact is, the NHS is abused by the politicians who run it, often abused by unscrupulous individuals who work within it, and far too often abused by the people who use it.

    It needs politicians to demand and provide adequate resources. It needs clinicians (and institutions like the Royal College of Nursing) to speak out when they don't have what they need to do their jobs. It needs somebody to bloody do something about people who don't turn up for appointments/ assault medics in A+E etc.
    Good post.

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    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Wait, we have heavyweights?
    Don't put yourself down mate. 😄

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    He apologised for getting it wrong and promising something that they couldnt deliver.

    Thats the kind of thing the OP meant?
    Fair dos however, IMO if he hadn't jumped into bed with the wrong fellows he could have taken the LibDems to unknown heights.
    Super-Non-Adjustable-F-U.
    Last edited by snooky; 29-09-2017 at 06:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I was reading an article on the BBC today about a report prepared by the Royal College of Nursing following canvassing of front line staff that highlights several issues with the service the NHS is providing.

    There were several issues raised including elderly patients dying alone, medication being given late, nurses being moved to departments they were unqualified or felt unable to work in and child patients missing meals as other cases had to be prioritised. There was a general agreement among the 30 000 people surveyed felt the service was understaffed.

    The response from both Holyrood and Westminster was as you would expect. 'record investment', '10000 new jobs', 'leading the UK' and so on. It's tired rhetoric and spin dismissing the real concerns of front line workers, in essence they are being ignored. It's the kind of stuff that actually turns me off politics as opposed to making a party seem more appealing. I would have far more respect and inclination to vote for a party that put their hands up and admitted the strategy we have been following for a decade or more has failed and continues to fail. There's such an obsession with throwing numbers and monetary figures at people that it begins to lose all meaning. Ultimately all of it means nothing if it doesn't result in a better end product.
    Thought I'd take a wee look at this, as it's from the BBC.

    On your point re political parties, I'd agree, that no one party will get close to fixing the NHS, and it does need fixed. The money thrown at it over the years has been the sticking plaster on a gaping wound, unfortunately the way the UK are going, it won't be fixed any time soon.

    The report makes reference to many problems and, although, Scotland, has just over 3,000 respondents, it reflects fairly on all countries within the UK, imo.

    It also mentions the ongoing issue with staff recruitment and our impending Brexit, having a detrimental effect on said staffing.

    It also covers the fact that legislation is being brought forward in Scotland on safe staffing levels, something that will hopefully help. Wales are waiting for implementing guidance later this year on their safe staffing bill. England and NI have still to start.

    Reading the BBC output, I thought that this only related to Hospitals, however it covers places such as prisons and the like. Safe staffing in all areas are key to the outcomes the nurses want.

    A copy of the report is here for your perusal, but I have to warn you, their are lots of figures in there.

    https://www.rcn.org.uk/-/media/royal...-006415.pdf%20

    FWIW I have had two members of my family who've gone through major operations in the last month, and I can safely say that the levels of care and follow up they both received has been outstanding. The staff I've spoken with have been, professional and caring in the extreme.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    A politician/party that was inclined to move their point of view in light of new information would be more likely to get my vote; unless they're tories.

    Being Stubborn should not be the admirable quality that many (or several, I forget the right term these days) believe it to be.
    Agree with that. Everyone needs to base their view on evidence.If the evidence changes, your view may need to pivot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Agree with that. Everyone needs to base their view on evidence.If the evidence changes, your view may need to pivot.
    Apart from most people and defo most politicians simply see the evidence they want to support their position. The art of negotiation and compromise seems to be a fading one both in society and in the political landscape. But I certainly would happily vote for a politician that had changed their views and could explain why (and I agreed with their volte-face), it would at least be an indication that they were applying some critical analysis rather than being constantly dogmatic.

    As for the NHS...well if anyone says they have the answer the are lying. No country has a perfect healthcare system and most western countries are struggling to adapts to the demographic changes.

    The fact though remains that the NHS will never ever have enough money. Look at the huge increase in spending by Labour that produced minimal productivity gains. The post earlier about he need for politicians, employees and users of the service needing to adapt and change was a good one, quite how that can come about I have no idea tho!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    Don't put yourself down mate. 😄

    I have people for that.

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    Depends on what and why they got something wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Fair dos however, IMO if he hadn't jumped into bed with the wrong fellows he could have taken the LibDems to unknown heights.
    Super-Non-Adjustable-F-U.
    Perhaps, but they made a choice, a choice that, at the time, was a lot more palatable and sensible than it woyld look with 7 years hindsight.

    You are kinda making the point though, that he/his party are forever tarred by a decision they made 7 years ago at a different time, faved with a serioud national problem and im sure, for the right reasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Agree with that. Everyone needs to base their view on evidence.If the evidence changes, your view may need to pivot.
    Agree with this.

    The whole 'cant be seen to do a u-turn' BS in our politics will be responsible for so much terrible legislation, money amd time wasted.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 30-09-2017 at 02:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Apart from most people and defo most politicians simply see the evidence they want to support their position. The art of negotiation and compromise seems to be a fading one both in society and in the political landscape. But I certainly would happily vote for a politician that had changed their views and could explain why (and I agreed with their volte-face), it would at least be an indication that they were applying some critical analysis rather than being constantly dogmatic.

    As for the NHS...well if anyone says they have the answer the are lying. No country has a perfect healthcare system and most western countries are struggling to adapts to the demographic changes.

    The fact though remains that the NHS will never ever have enough money. Look at the huge increase in spending by Labour that produced minimal productivity gains. The post earlier about he need for politicians, employees and users of the service needing to adapt and change was a good one, quite how that can come about I have no idea tho!
    I am all for the principle of free care, but i do wonder if we will ever get the change we need in attitudes while folk see healthcare (and increasingly social care) as an entitlement that has no cost to them personally.

    1 out of every 10 pounds spent in the NHS now is diabetes related, a disease that is often both preventable, and often manageable by better lifestyle choices that people could male but dont, for whateber reason. Things like this will have to change.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I am all for the principle of free care, but i do wonder if we will ever get the change we need in attitudes while folk see healthcare (and increasingly social care) as an entitlement that has no cost to them personally.

    1 out of every 10 pounds spent in the NHS now is diabetes related, a disease that is often both preventable, and often manageable by better lifestyle choices that people could male but dont, for whateber reason. Things like this will have to change.

    Your second paragraph - is there figures to back up your 1 in 10 claim?

    i also think your second point in that paragraph to be very sweeping and not wholly accurate. Type 1 diabetics are often born with or diagnosed at a very early age, are are rarely preventable or lifestyle choice related. Type 2 can be more related to lifestyle choice, but this is only one possible factor. Another example is that pregnant women can develop diabetes during pregnancy, that’s not lifestyle choice or preventable either,

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    Quote Originally Posted by McD View Post
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    Your second paragraph - is there figures to back up your 1 in 10 claim?

    i also think your second point in that paragraph to be very sweeping and not wholly accurate. Type 1 diabetics are often born with or diagnosed at a very early age, are are rarely preventable or lifestyle choice related. Type 2 can be more related to lifestyle choice, but this is only one possible factor. Another example is that pregnant women can develop diabetes during pregnancy, thatís not lifestyle choice or preventable either,
    Not to hand, but its a well known figure. Maybe came from diabetes uk or something?

    Hence why i qualified my second paragraph, but as i understand it, type 1 is far less prevalent, as is pregnancy related.

    Type 2 is largely a lifestyle disease, that can be well managed (often) through positive lifestyle changes.

    Correction - the figure seems to relate to medicines spending, not all spending - my mistake
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 01-10-2017 at 09:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Not to hand, but its a well known figure. Maybe came from diabetes uk or something?

    Hence why i qualified my second paragraph, but as i understand it, type 1 is far less prevalent, as is pregnancy related.

    Type 2 is largely a lifestyle disease, that can be well managed (often) through positive lifestyle changes.

    Correction - the figure seems to relate to medicines spending, not all spending - my mistake

    Fair doís mate always think you bring a considered and thoughtful opinion and input 😊

    lifestyle is definitely a factor for type 2, heridatory and genetic factors also large contributors.



    Back on the original topic, I think my answer would be....maybe
    it depends on what they had got wrong (more inclined to forgiving someone getting it wrong on something relatively minor versus something huge), and also how theyíve handled the admission. Someone who is rather dismissive and arrogant of the mistake, or someone who expresses genuine regret and demonstrates a plan to redress whatís went wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I was reading an article on the BBC today about a report prepared by the Royal College of Nursing following canvassing of front line staff that highlights several issues with the service the NHS is providing.

    There were several issues raised including elderly patients dying alone, medication being given late, nurses being moved to departments they were unqualified or felt unable to work in and child patients missing meals as other cases had to be prioritised. There was a general agreement among the 30 000 people surveyed felt the service was understaffed.

    The response from both Holyrood and Westminster was as you would expect. 'record investment', '10000 new jobs', 'leading the UK' and so on. It's tired rhetoric and spin dismissing the real concerns of front line workers, in essence they are being ignored. It's the kind of stuff that actually turns me off politics as opposed to making a party seem more appealing. I would have far more respect and inclination to vote for a party that put their hands up and admitted the strategy we have been following for a decade or more has failed and continues to fail. There's such an obsession with throwing numbers and monetary figures at people that it begins to lose all meaning. Ultimately all of it means nothing if it doesn't result in a better end product.
    im amazed people actually stil believe Politicians make choices.

    is it not obvious by now that.....They are only Puppets.

    The Rothchilds and Soros are pulling all the strings.

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