What was it like pre-segregation?

[G B Young]

In light of the furore over the number of Cologne fans who gained access to the home sections at the Emirates last night, I was put in mind of old footage of Edinburgh derby matches where you can clearly see the fans are unsegregated.

I'm not quite old enough to remember those days, but for those who are what was it like? Was there much trouble or did standing and sitting alongside Hearts supporters dilute the tension somewhat? Or were fans just less full of venom towards each other back then?

I imagine things must have got a bit hairy when the Old Firm came to ER (in particular before the alcohol ban).

[Forza Fred]

We'd still 'self segregate' in a way by gathering together.

The Cow shed though was volatile with only a stairway of polis separating opposing fans on a few occasions.

I particularly remember the game against Celtic when John Hughes broke Bobby Duncan's leg.

We let them know in no uncertain terms what we thought of Hughes to be met with a sky full of bottles cans and glasses hurled towards us.

It was like a scene out of Braveheart where the English unleash their arrows...except substitute Lanliq and Melroso (weegie special preferred tipples at the time) bottles and wine glasses for the arrows!

[Spike Mandela]

It was like social media but face to face. Difference was you had to be able to back it up if you had a big mouth.

[green&left]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

In light of the furore over the number of Cologne fans who gained access to the home sections at the Emirates last night, I was put in mind of old footage of Edinburgh derby matches where you can clearly see the fans are unsegregated.

I'm not quite old enough to remember those days, but for those who are what was it like? Was there much trouble or did standing and sitting alongside Hearts supporters dilute the tension somewhat? Or were fans just less full of venom towards each other back then?

I imagine things must have got a bit hairy when the Old Firm came to ER (in particular before the alcohol ban).

German fans mix all the time BTW. They probably wouldn't have seen any problems buying home end tickets. The mix pre match, during the match and post match and very rarely any bother in Germany.

[Paisley Hibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

In light of the furore over the number of Cologne fans who gained access to the home sections at the Emirates last night, I was put in mind of old footage of Edinburgh derby matches where you can clearly see the fans are unsegregated.

I'm not quite old enough to remember those days, but for those who are what was it like? Was there much trouble or did standing and sitting alongside Hearts supporters dilute the tension somewhat? Or were fans just less full of venom towards each other back then?

I imagine things must have got a bit hairy when the Old Firm came to ER (in particular before the alcohol ban).

I can just about remember going to matches before segregation. I recall at half time you'd have fans switching ends with the different fans passing each other at the half way line. I don't remember any trouble around that but I was probably too young to be going to games involving OF. Also, my memories of this are really at away grounds (eg Brockville) rather than Easter Road. Later in the 1970s I remember being in the Dunbar End for a Celtic match and we beat them 4-1 (or maybe even 4-0) and the Celtic fans were not happy. Screwtop beer bottles flying everywhere - over our heads and the game was stopped. Jock Stein came over to try to calm things down. That was mental.

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

German fans mix all the time BTW. They probably wouldn't have seen any problems buying home end tickets. The mix pre match, during the match and post match and very rarely any bother in Germany.

Most of any trouble at German games is between the so-called 'Ultras' and the Police. For some reason, they really have it in for the Polis over here.

The most common graffiti in and around grounds is 'ACAB' (All Cops Are B...)

[Keith_M]

Does anybody know which year the segregation fence was put in place between the Main Terrace (East) and the Dunbar End?

My first match was in March 1979, and it was already there.

[JeMeSouviens]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Most of any trouble at German games is between the so-called 'Ultras' and the Police. For some reason, they really have it in for the Polis over here.

The most common graffiti in and around grounds is 'ACAB' (All Cops Are B...)

Verging off topic but why are they "1. FC Koeln" and not just "FC Koeln"? What does the "1." mean?

[JeMeSouviens]

Back on topic, I'm sure the 79 cup final was only partly segregated? We were on the north terrace under the old stand that used to be there and I have vague memories of Huns and Hibbies exchanging pleasantries? I think it was segregated at the ends though.

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Verging off topic but why are they "1. FC Koeln" and not just "FC Koeln"? What does the "1." mean?

I've no idea why they add it, but it's quite common with clubs that were formed after a merger of two other clubs.

[G B Young]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I can just about remember going to matches before segregation. I recall at half time you'd have fans switching ends with the different fans passing each other at the half way line. I don't remember any trouble around that but I was probably too young to be going to games involving OF. Also, my memories of this are really at away grounds (eg Brockville) rather than Easter Road. Later in the 1970s I remember being in the Dunbar End for a Celtic match and we beat them 4-1 (or maybe even 4-0) and the Celtic fans were not happy. Screwtop beer bottles flying everywhere - over our heads and the game was stopped. Jock Stein came over to try to calm things down. That was mental.

Here's the game you mention, complete with footage of Stein coming on the pitch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcZ0yrTT45c

[Carheenlea]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Verging off topic but why are they "1. FC Koeln" and not just "FC Koeln"? What does the "1." mean?

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I've no idea why they add it, but it's quite common with clubs that were formed after a merger of two other clubs.

"German football club names represent the German habit of naming their clubs in a very traditional format. Historical roots are extremely important to clubs in the Bundesliga, and their names simply reflect that.

For example, Fußballclub Gelsenkirchen-Schalke 04 e. V.

What does each term mean?
Fußballclub = football club.
Gelsenkirchen-Schalke = the place where the club is founded (in this case the city of Gelsenkirchen in the district of Schalke in the North Rhine-Westphalia region of Germany.
04 = 1904, the year the club was founded
e.V. = Eingetragener Verein = registered association.
This is how the club is officially registered.
Most people call it just Schalke, and choosing to put 04 on the logo is just a (historical) stylistic choice.

Another example - 1. Fußball-Club Köln 01/07 e. V.

1. at the start shows that it is the first club formed in the city. This is a matter of great pride for clubs.
Fußballclub = football club
Köln = from Cologne/Köln
01/07 = the club was formed in 1948 as a merger of the clubs Kölner Ballspiel-Club 1901 and SpVgg Sülz 07. The 01/07 reflects these historical roots.
e.V. = Eingetragener Verein = registered association.
Once again, they're mostly called 1. FC Köln or simply FC (effzeh).

Most clubs are of a very traditional format (club type, city/town, year of formation, association status). There are clubs which deviate from this, obviously.
For example, Bayern Munich (Fußball-Club Bayern München e.V) does not mention the year it was formed.
Borussia Dortmund (Ballspielverein Borussia 09 e.V. Dortmund) gets the Borussia from a local brewery, though it is ultimately derived from Prussia. (BVB 09 is an abbreviation of the part before the e.V.)

Simply put: this is not a rule, but a general tradition which a number of clubs across Germany have adopted."

[Bobo]

IMG_0599.jpgIMG_0599.jpg

This is what it used to like vrs the old firm and the merricks.

[Keith_M]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

IMG_0599.jpgIMG_0599.jpg

This is what it used to like vrs the old firm and the merricks.

Those pictures actually look very similar to the first couple of OF games I attended at ER, and that was after segregation was introduced.

I think in the first few years afte the fences went up, segregation wasn't enforced anywhere nearly as strictly as it is now, so we had loads of OF Fans in the home end, with resulting battles on the terraces.

Beastie and his mates used to sort them out, nae bother ;-)

[JeMeSouviens]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Thanks for that... but it falls down in the example of 1 FC Köln.

"1. at the start shows that it is the first club formed in the city. This is a matter of great pride for clubs."

They weren't the first club in the city if they were formed as a part of a merger of other clubs ;-)

Thanks Keekaboo and Carheenlea. Thread on it here:

https://forum.wordreference.com/thre...names.2191207/

Again, the name "1. FC" has nothing whatsoever to do with the team's performance. It is a pure name constituent and is used to indicate age or sometimes size of the club (1. FC Köln, e.g., is not the oldest Cologne soccer club nor was any of the former clubs which merged to form the club 1948 but it is by far the biggest association football club in the city). In actual fact it is not guaranteed to mean anything.

[WeeRussell]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

In light of the furore over the number of Cologne fans who gained access to the home sections at the Emirates last night, I was put in mind of old footage of Edinburgh derby matches where you can clearly see the fans are unsegregated.

I'm not quite old enough to remember those days, but for those who are what was it like? Was there much trouble or did standing and sitting alongside Hearts supporters dilute the tension somewhat? Or were fans just less full of venom towards each other back then?

I imagine things must have got a bit hairy when the Old Firm came to ER (in particular before the alcohol ban).

Weren't the crowds still 'un-segregated' when you were going to Scotland games in the 70s?

Have heard stories about Wembley having more Scotland fans in it than England ones (though the teller of these is prone to a bit of exaggeration ) I would imagine that most internationals would be kind of naturally segregated in that the majority would be home supporters and the away fans would gravitate to one area... but the issues of no official barriers etc would still stand.

[JeMeSouviens]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Weren't the crowds still 'un-segregated' when you were going to Scotland games in the 70s?

Have heard stories about Wembley having more Scotland fans in it than England ones (though the teller of these is prone to a bit of exaggeration ) I would imagine that most internationals would be kind of naturally segregated in that the majority would be home supporters and the away fans would gravitate to one area... but the issues of no official barriers etc would still stand.

The Gordon McQueen header one where the exuberant fans broke the goalposts looked like 90% Scotland fans on the telly.

[Is It On....]

My dad likes telling me of his fondness for an "unsegregated" New Year's Day game he attended at Tynecastle in the early 1970s 😂

[Is It On....]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Most of any trouble at German games is between the so-called 'Ultras' and the Police. For some reason, they really have it in for the Polis over here.

The most common graffiti in and around grounds is 'ACAB' (All Cops Are B...)

ACAB...also the title of a cracking song by early 80s OI band The 4 Skins.

[WeeRussell]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The Gordon McQueen header one where the exuberant fans broke the goalposts looked like 90% Scotland fans on the telly.

That's the one

My auld man also claims that they used to 'turn-up' the noise of the English fans on the TV to make it seem like there were more of them there, whilst being drowned-out by 'us boys'.

No that I'm doubting him like.

Exuberance.. ye cannae beat it.

[Bobo]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Weren't the crowds still 'un-segregated' when you were going to Scotland games in the 70s?

Have heard stories about Wembley having more Scotland fans in it than England ones (though the teller of these is prone to a bit of exaggeration ) I would imagine that most internationals would be kind of naturally segregated in that the majority would be home supporters and the away fans would gravitate to one area... but the issues of no official barriers etc would still stand.

There were about 65000 Scots out of a 98000 crowd at Wembley in 1977 according to this article:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...gland-1977.htm

[Kato]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Weren't the crowds still 'un-segregated' when you were going to Scotland games in the 70s?

Have heard stories about Wembley having more Scotland fans in it than England ones (though the teller of these is prone to a bit of exaggeration ) I would imagine that most internationals would be kind of naturally segregated in that the majority would be home supporters and the away fans would gravitate to one area... but the issues of no official barriers etc would still stand.

I was at 4 Wembley fixtures, 1977-83. All bar the last one had vastly more Scotland than England fans. In '79 I went into the ground with about 10 minutes to kick off and there were still thousands out-side milling around all the way down Wembley Way and Scotland fans inside must have been about 75-80% of the crowd. No need to exaggerate, that's the way it was.

[WeeRussell]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I was at 4 Wembley fixtures, 1977-83. All bar the last one had vastly more Scotland than England fans. In '79 I went into the ground with about 10 minutes to kick off and there were still thousands out-side milling around all the way down Wembley Way and Scotland fans inside must have been about 75-80% of the crowd. No need to exaggerate, that's the way it was.

Yep - I do believe it. Just put that line in seeing as it was my auld man... and also to point out it wasn't my stats

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

We'd still 'self segregate' in a way by gathering together.

The Cow shed though was volatile with only a stairway of polis separating opposing fans on a few occasions.

I particularly remember the game against Celtic when John Hughes broke Bobby Duncan's leg.

We let them know in no uncertain terms what we thought of Hughes to be met with a sky full of bottles cans and glasses hurled towards us.

It was like a scene out of Braveheart where the English unleash their arrows...except substitute Lanliq and Melroso (weegie special preferred tipples at the time) bottles and wine glasses for the arrows!

THE CAVE !!!
12345 ...if you want to stay alive !
Keep out The Cave !!
We did defend our territory against all comers, even the Edinburgh Constabulary, if they tried to confiscate a banner (usually mine. I had one with a Harp painted on it) or huckle an innocent,exuberant fan from The Cave.
Enter at your peril !!
Happy Days !

Lannie and Melrose?
Great stuff for stripping wallpaper and removing gloss paint.
It could shift artex tae !

My preference was a wee quarter bottle of 4 Crown washed down with 4 cans of Export.

Nectar !!
Am no surprised i have little recall of the mid/late sixties in The Cave.

Oh, and if younger fans think visits to the dark side of Govan is bad these days,the 60s and 70s were no picnic !
Not for the faint or chicken hearted back then.

[G B Young]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Weren't the crowds still 'un-segregated' when you were going to Scotland games in the 70s?

Have heard stories about Wembley having more Scotland fans in it than England ones (though the teller of these is prone to a bit of exaggeration ) I would imagine that most internationals would be kind of naturally segregated in that the majority would be home supporters and the away fans would gravitate to one area... but the issues of no official barriers etc would still stand.

I never went to Wembley nor to a Scotland v England game at Hampden but yes, I do recall being taken to home internationals at Hampden when I'm pretty sure Welsh and Northern Ireland fans were unsegregated. Might be wrong though. The thing about grounds like Hampden and Wembley back then though was that they were so vast (crowds of 100,000+) that I I imagine it was a case of just paying at the gate rather than having to have a ticket.

I clearly recall being among Dutch and Swiss (was that the final game?) fans at Euro 96 and mingling with Brazil fans at World Cup 98. The England fixture aside, I guess internationals are less 'tribal'. That's certainly the case when it comes to international rugby, where the lack of segregation and banter between the fans is all part of the experience.

[Halmyre Hibee]

Used to go with my Hibs & Hearts mates to the derbies and just good banter. There was always a few nutters on both sides but they tended to congregate in the cave and chuck bottles at each other or at the roof to smash. Remember a game being stopped while the aggro was taking place and there was a great picture in the paper of Erich Schaedler sitting on the ball watching it all unfold.

The old firm fans were different especially if we were beating them and not uncommon for pissed filled cans flying about with whisky bottles. Some teenagers used to wear those builders hard hats to the game (even a few painted green) and I remember on of my school mates wearing one.

Only got hit once as a 13 year old v Rangers by grown men chucking golf balls at us school kids in the Dunbar end during a Scottish Cup replay at Easter Road 72-73 season as we lost 1-2 with over 49,000 at the game. Hated them ever since.

[Mick O'Rourke]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I never went to Wembley nor to a Scotland v England game at Hampden but yes, I do recall being taken to home internationals at Hampden when I'm pretty sure Welsh and Northern Ireland fans were unsegregated. Might be wrong though. The thing about grounds like Hampden and Wembley back then though was that they were so vast (crowds of 100,000+) that I I imagine it was a case of just paying at the gate rather than having to have a ticket.

I clearly recall being among Dutch and Swiss (was that the final game?) fans at Euro 96 and mingling with Brazil fans at World Cup 98. The England fixture aside, I guess internationals are less 'tribal'. That's certainly the case when it comes to international rugby, where the lack of segregation and banter between the fans is all part of the experience.

I attended 7 Wembleys (2 wins)
It was tickets back then
The situation was during the late sixties and seventies many "England" fans would not attend and Scottish fans in England would hoover up the tickets.
Scotland would usually get an allocation of around 30.000,but as older fans will know 70.000 plus would be in the stadium
So of course it was not properly segregated

However it was a case of "Spot the Englishman"

I once got in for free by carring in a side drum for the prematch pipe band !!
Sat 4 rows in front of the Tornadoes that day !! 1973
England "won" 1-0
Scotland were brilliant that day.
Peter Shilton had what was a genuine world class save from King Kenny.

In fact, i "sneaked" into Wembley 4 times.
Only on two occasions did i have a ticket before going down.

[Forza Fred]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I attended 7 Wembleys (2 wins)
It was tickets back then
The situation was during the late sixties and seventies many "England" fans would not attend and Scottish fans in England would hoover up the tickets.
Scotland would usually get an allocation of around 30.000,but as older fans will know 70.000 plus would be in the stadium
So of course it was not properly segregated

However it was a case of "Spot the Englishman"

I once got in for free by carring in a side drum for the prematch pipe band !!
Sat 4 rows in front of the Tornadoes that day !! 1973
England "won" 1-0
Scotland were brilliant that day.
Peter Shilton had what was a genuine world class save from King Kenny.

In fact, i "sneaked" into Wembley 4 times.
Only on two occasions did i have a ticket before going down.

I was at that Wembley......it was the one where the wee Scotsman invaded the park and made a run at England's Jimmy Clitheroe....otherwise known as Alan Ball.

I had a ticket....but witnessed a couple of guys on our bus just jumping over the turnstiles!

Never saw an Englishman there.......a quick dip in Trafalgar Square amongst the lions after more than a modicum of grossly overpriced London beer and then intae bed...

Happy Days!

[snedzuk]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Used to go with my Hibs & Hearts mates to the derbies and just good banter. There was always a few nutters on both sides but they tended to congregate in the cave and chuck bottles at each other or at the roof to smash. Remember a game being stopped while the aggro was taking place and there was a great picture in the paper of Erich Schaedler sitting on the ball watching it all unfold.

The old firm fans were different especially if we were beating them and not uncommon for pissed filled cans flying about with whisky bottles. Some teenagers used to wear those builders hard hats to the game (even a few painted green) and I remember on of my school mates wearing one.

Only got hit once as a 13 year old v Rangers by grown men chucking golf balls at us school kids in the Dunbar end during a Scottish Cup replay at Easter Road 72-73 season as we lost 1-2 with over 49,000 at the game. Hated them ever since.

No way arthur duncan was offside that night.

[therealgavmac]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

The Gordon McQueen header one where the exuberant fans broke the goalposts looked like 90% Scotland fans on the telly.

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Weren't the crowds still 'un-segregated' when you were going to Scotland games in the 70s?

Have heard stories about Wembley having more Scotland fans in it than England ones (though the teller of these is prone to a bit of exaggeration ) I would imagine that most internationals would be kind of naturally segregated in that the majority would be home supporters and the away fans would gravitate to one area... but the issues of no official barriers etc would still stand.

I've been to Wembley on a number of occasions where in 100,000 at leat 90,000 plus were Scots fans. Also, the "goalpost" game, Ted Croker tried to ban the Scots from Wembley by not officially giving the SFA tickets..... that worked out well!

Cue the renditions of, "Ban us fae Wembley, Ye cannae ban us fae Wembley, Ban us fae Weeeeeeembley....." etc