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Thread: Catalonia

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    To be clear JMS, I am not the one complaining about this. There's no "But, but, but, what about what *they* did?" from me because I have no problem with Yessers or whoever having a go at their opponents. In fact if we don't have that we don't have any debate.
    Ok, that's cool. I suppose I was a bit moany, of course you have every right to Nat-bash as much as and wherever you like albeit it comes across as contrived, mostly high handed and belittling to me.

    Getting back on topic, I don't see how the Spanish government can allow an illegal referendum to go ahead in Catalonia:

    1. It breaks the rule of law - so what other laws is it then okay to break?
    Hmmm, I'm not particularly impressed with "it's the law" as an argument either in the general sense or the specifics. Rosa Parks, Pastor Niemoeller, Nelson Mandela etc etc. These were obviously bad laws that deserved to be broken. None would have changed without civil unrest and/or violence.

    The Spanish constitution was written at a time when the Spanish military were very much poised to regain control if they felt the need. And indeed some of them tried in 1981. The Catalan and Spanish governments negotiated further autonomy and recognition of Catalonia as a nation within Spain in 2006. This was endorsed in a referendum recognised by both sides and approved by the Spanish and Catalan parliaments. It was then struck down at the behest of the PP by the Spanish constitutional court (by judges with PP affiliations aiui).

    It was following that that massive numbers took to the streets in protest for the 2012 "diada", a turnout which took everybody by suprise. And it was only after that that Catalan political leaders started pushing for a referendum (although as stated by others the timing was convenient for Artur Mas to deflect from allegations of corruption). They have spent almost 5 years campaigning to be allowed to hold a legally agreed referendum and Spain has just refused to engage in any dialogue whatsoever.

    Support for independence has been more or less 50-50 for a few years but what's not in doubt is support for a referendum to be held, which regularly polls at around 70-80%.

    What would you propose the Catalan independentists should do?

    2. If it goes ahead are they then bound by the result?

    3. If this is allowed to go ahead a precedent is then set for the Basques and a whole host of other Spanish secessionist movements to host illegal referendums too.
    Because the standoff has been allowed to develop to this point, it's extremely hard to plot a reasonable path out of it. I don't think the EU or its member states will recognise an independent Catalonia, so Spanish rule will be re-imposed. I just hope that can be done peacefully. Where they go from there is anyone's guess? I hope pressure can be brought to bear on Spain (without bloodshed) to concede an agreed referendum.

    I'm not sure it was too astute a tactical move for Scottish Government to make statements about this either. Partly because as IberianHibernian has said it is a complex picture but more importantly for the following reason. If Indyref2 happens at some stage in the future then the question of possible Scottish membership of the EU will re-emerge The Spanish are not going to be shy about settling debts on this one. Bearing in mind their increased seniority within the EU following UK departure, their public stance and their internal influence on the EU position is going to be all the harder for Yes to finesse.
    They're between a rock and a hard place on this. Not supporting Catalonia's right to decide would be a sellout but I agree on the likely implications.

    In fact if this all ends in a separate Catalonia then a whole bunch of separatist movements are going to be encouraged across a range of EU nations - and I suspect that will mean an even tougher EU line for an independent Catalonia.

    To disappear into one dimension of this, I'm sure Real Madrid would be just fine within a La Liga that did not include Barcelona but what would happen to Barca (and Espanyol) if the Spanish decided to take Catalonian independence really badly?
    Losing Barca would have a big effect on Madrid. (Though obv not as huge as the effect on Barca of playing in a Catalan league). Spanish teams sell their own tv rights and without the Clasicos these would be significantly diminished. La Liga is probably currently top dog among Europe's leagues and while it would still have loads of big clubs, it's not too hard to imagine it dropping below others in the pecking order. Once that happens (as with Serie A after dominating in the 90s) you start to lose the ability to attract the cream of international talent.

    Keeping Barca and Madrid together might be what eventually breaks open UEFA sanctioned cross border leagues.


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  3. #122
    Latest poll on eldiario.es has 83% yes on a 63% turnout.

    That would be an actual majority of the electorate (better than either the No side in indyref or Leave in brexit).

    If they can get to the polls in peace ...

    Edit: actually I think itís 83% support an agreed referendum. No habla Espanol
    Last edited by JeMeSouviens; 29-09-2017 at 08:21 PM.

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Latest poll on eldiario.es has 83% yes on a 63% turnout.

    That would be an actual majority of the electorate (better than either the No side in indyref or Leave in brexit).

    If they can get to the polls in peace ...

    Edit: actually I think itís 83% support an agreed referendum. No habla Espanol
    Or Catalan.... 😉

  5. #124
    Coaching Staff heretoday's Avatar
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    Good luck to them. Boring old Spain. It's not the same as our situation though. Smaller country for a start.

  6. #125
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    The Spanish government aren't holding back - rubber bullets, police brutality, storming polling stations to confiscate ballot boxes, shutting down internet access to polling stations. No matter what you think of the referendum, this ain't a good look for a democracy.

  7. #126
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    And still not a peep from the Galactic Empire esque EU

  8. #127
    It's getting a bit scary now.

    Whatever your opinion on the referendum the pictures coming from Catalonia don't look good. The image of the fire service protecting civilians from the Police was heartening though.
    I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women,. Suddenly, uncritically giving no thought to the pain it could bring. - Nick Hornby

  9. #128
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    It's getting a bit scary now.

    Whatever your opinion on the referendum the pictures coming from Catalonia don't look good. The image of the fire service protecting civilians from the Police was heartening though.
    Heartening but not surprising. Almost 30 years ago I was in Galicia to play at a festival and, being fairly ignorant of Spanish politics, was amazed to see the animosity shown by the state police. The municipal police warned us to be careful at night on the streets and became pretty much our private taxi service, while the state police would literally gob on us from the back of their trucks as they drove past.

    The state police were basically under orders to undermine the festival and were looking for any excuse to lift anyone involved.
    Last edited by Peevemor; 01-10-2017 at 12:36 PM.

  10. #129
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    They really are inflaming the situation.

    I get that the vote is 'illegal', but there are umpteen ways they could deal with that better than acting like a third world dictatorship.

  11. #130
    Barcelona game today to be played behind closed doors.
    I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women,. Suddenly, uncritically giving no thought to the pain it could bring. - Nick Hornby

  12. #131
    @hibs.net private member The_Exile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    Barcelona game today to be played behind closed doors.
    La Liga showing their class by refusing to postpone the game. Shameful.

  13. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    They really are inflaming the situation.

    I get that the vote is 'illegal', but there are umpteen ways they could deal with that better than acting like a third world dictatorship.
    And we used to sing Viva Espana.

  14. #133
    @hibs.net proletariat member Pete's Avatar
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    Pictures look pretty shocking with nearly 400 injured. Wading into polling stations with paramilitaries, wtf?

    As previously said, this surely could have been handled better.

  15. #134
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    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  16. #135
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    What a fricken mess.

    I think both sides in this have covered themselves in crap. That said, I'm really not sure what either side could be doing differently. You shouldn't be holding illegal referendums and equally you shouldn't be breaking up illegal referendums in ways that injure people.

    Thank god it's not here.

  17. #136
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Local police fighting against Madridís storm troopers.

    No Pasaran!

    This is bat**** crazy! Let them vote.

    J

  18. #137
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    What a fricken mess.

    I think both sides in this have covered themselves in crap. That said, I'm really not sure what either side could be doing differently. You shouldn't be holding illegal referendums and equally you shouldn't be breaking up illegal referendums in ways that injure people.

    Thank god it's not here.
    How can they pray tell, hold a legal referendum when Madrid will not allow a referendum to EVER take place?

    No option IMHO.

    J

  19. #138
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Surely they could let them have a referendum, legal or not, and whatever the result the Spanish government could say "So what?" Nae need for this. The worms are out the jar, big time.
    I wonder how the Basques are viewing this? Maybe that's part of the reason for the Spanish government's crazy action.
    Last edited by snooky; 01-10-2017 at 03:44 PM.

  20. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    How can they pray tell, hold a legal referendum when Madrid will not allow a referendum to EVER take place?

    No option IMHO.

    J
    They either uphold the law and want others to or they don't. Otherwise its a free for all in picking which laws to observe.

    If they have no option what is to stop all the other secessionist movements in Spain - and there are many - from also holding illegal referendums? And what is Spain supposed to do with the result of this and any others that are held?

  21. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    They either uphold the law and want others to or they don't. Otherwise its a free for all in picking which laws to observe.

    If they have no option what is to stop all the other secessionist movements in Spain - and there are many - from also holding illegal referendums? And what is Spain supposed to do with the result of this and any others that are held?
    They could always ignore them as illegitimate? Better than firing plastic bullets.

  22. #141
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Surely they could let them have a referendum, legal or not, and whatever the result the Spanish government could say "So what?" Nae need for this. The worms are out the jar, big time.
    I wonder how the Basques are viewing this? Maybe that's part of the reason for the Spanish government's crazy action.

    I think the Catalans are crazy for going this path knowing what the Spanish reaction would be and I think the Spanish government is crazy for enforcing it this way knowing what the Catalan reaction will be.

    Not just the Basques - there are a whole bunch of other regional separatist movements in the queue too. Perhaps the rest of Europe could learn a thing or two from the Germans and their federated structure. The global economic future is going to be competition between city regions not states, so organising on that basis within federated structures makes a lot more sense - and would perhaps offer a way forward for Catalonia among others.

    Not sure the Spanish govt could just say 'so what' BTW, the Catalonian leader had apparently said he could declare independence within days of the referendum - and that would be a troops on the streets situation I think...

  23. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glory Lurker View Post
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    They could always ignore them as illegitimate? Better than firing plastic bullets.

    Perhaps, but threat of declaration of UDI kind of kneecaps that path. In fact in some ways it might even be more violent.

    Underlines a particular point for me - the calibre of Western politicians right now seems to be at its very lowest just at the time when we face the biggest set of crises and most need good leadership.

  24. #143
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    They either uphold the law and want others to or they don't. Otherwise its a free for all in picking which laws to observe.

    If they have no option what is to stop all the other secessionist movements in Spain - and there are many - from also holding illegal referendums? And what is Spain supposed to do with the result of this and any others that are held?
    They ignore them, as their laws dictate. And they prosecute those who broke the law.

    All they are succeeding in doing now is encouraging support and sympathy, both in Spain and elsewhere, for the separatist causes.

    Edit... you've answered that

  25. #144
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    So can anyone answer what the Catelonians are supposed to do? They have a mandate through their local regional elections to have the referendum, yet Madrid puts its fingers in its ears and cracks skulls.

    Self determination is the right of every people.

    Bringing the storm troopers in, battering women and people peacefully trying to exercise their democratic right is mental. Regional Police fighting National storm troopers. All thatís doing is killing any moderates. Itís us and them now.

    J

  26. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    Perhaps, but threat of declaration of UDI kind of kneecaps that path. In fact in some ways it might even be more violent.
    That's all assuming yes won. Tell the no voters to take part and - probably - yes loses . Spain's trenchant aversion to self determination has blinded Madrid in this.

  27. #146
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    They ignore them, as their laws dictate. And they prosecute those who broke the law.

    All they are succeeding in doing now is encouraging support and sympathy, both in Spain and elsewhere, for the separatist causes.

    Edit... you've answered that
    When did Voting become breaking the law?

    "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."

    J

  28. #147
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    When did Voting become breaking the law?

    "When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty."

    J
    When Spain put it in its Constitution...... someone will tell us when that was, presumably after the Civil War.?

    Right now, though, Spain are piling one moral injustice on top of another

    Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

  29. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by One Day Soon View Post
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    I think the Catalans are crazy for going this path knowing what the Spanish reaction would be and I think the Spanish government is crazy for enforcing it this way knowing what the Catalan reaction will be.

    Not just the Basques - there are a whole bunch of other regional separatist movements in the queue too. Perhaps the rest of Europe could learn a thing or two from the Germans and their federated structure. The global economic future is going to be competition between city regions not states, so organising on that basis within federated structures makes a lot more sense - and would perhaps offer a way forward for Catalonia among others.

    Not sure the Spanish govt could just say 'so what' BTW, the Catalonian leader had apparently said he could declare independence within days of the referendum - and that would be a troops on the streets situation I think...
    Agree with your point about federated structures, but i disagree that they couldnt just ignore it.

    Also they should have called the bluff of the universal declaration of independence- let him call it, knowimg that other countries wont recognise, that around 50% (maybe more) of the catalan population would be furious, and that the vote was illegal.

    This is just stupid, and if i were a no voting catalan, im fairly sure id now be a yes voting catalan.

  30. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    So can anyone answer what the Catelonians are supposed to do? They have a mandate through their local regional elections to have the referendum, yet Madrid puts its fingers in its ears and cracks skulls.

    Self determination is the right of every people.

    Bringing the storm troopers in, battering women and people peacefully trying to exercise their democratic right is mental. Regional Police fighting National storm troopers. All thatís doing is killing any moderates. Itís us and them now.

    J
    I agree its polaraising.

    Whether or not the catalans shpuld or shpuld not have held the vote seems a pointless discussion now. That was a discussion about politics (such as we had) but this is now way bwyond that imo.

    Regardless of whether or not tge catalans were right or wrong, rhis seems ridiculous.

  31. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Or Catalan.... 😉
    Si, no parla catala. ;-)

    However, the article I was trying to decipher was in Spanish so that was kind of relevant.

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