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Thread: Catalonia

  1. #541
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    Nobody expects that!!!
    Nobody ever does apparently

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  3. #542
    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    The alarm caused by the violent repression of people trying to vote. You werent alarmed when elderly women were being physically assaulted and dragged across the street by the police.
    If I lived in Scotland and my opinion was based on what was shown on British TV then yes I`d be alarmed . But I live in Spain and know it`s a modern democratic country with well - prepared police forces which have a good reputation for their work in Spain and far beyond ( earthquakes in South America etc ) . It`s common knowledge that there was massive manipulation of reports of police action on the day of the illegal referendum and of statistics of injuries on the same day . Also that elderly people and children , even babies were placed on the front line on the day of the illegal vote and failed general strike a couple of days later . Almost nobody in Spain condones some of the police action on 1st October but it would be inaccurate to ignore other incidents like hotel owners being threatened with closure if they accepted police as guests or children of police being threatened at school by school authorities , etc etc ( and it`s a very long etc ) .

  4. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    You have an extremely one sided view on this which is fair enough, but I take the complete opposite view from you. When a country uses violence and jails people for their political beliefs, then that is something that should cause alarm for anyone that believes in democracy. The Catalan situation will have no bearing on Scottish independence as for all our faults we live in a country that believes in the right of the people to determine their own fate. The fact that we’re now sadly leaving the EU after nearly half of the country voted against it proves that.
    When human rights groups are raising concerns as to what is happening in a European country in 2018 we should all be concerned.
    Not sure what you mean by one - sided . If you refer to view on whether Catalonia should become an independent country for the first time in its history I`ve already said that that should depend on opinions of Catalans meaning all Catalans but any changes must respect the laws of Spain and Catalonia . Any future referendum on changes in constitution including territorial changes would have to be approved by voters all over Spain not just in Catalonia . That is not my personal opinion just the law according to the Spanish constitution and Catalan Statute .
    Violence and jails ? I don`t think any of the politicians who are in prison in Spain or who have fled abroad are political prisoners . It`s not a satisfactory situation for anybody ( families of accused miss their loved ones , Catalonia is being governed from a distance though things seem to be running better than before , Catalonian economy is suffering , Spain is having to hear criticism about human rights etc as on this thread ...) but everyone knew what could happen or should have though I accept that independence parties had got such complete control of public institutions in Catalonia that some people may have thought that independence would be achieved without any problems with police (regional or national ) and other authorities .
    I disagree completely about Scottish independence and Catalonia though . Both nations / regions have very different histories and I think Catalan situation will and does have a big bearing on Scottish situation . I warned of danger of Spanish interference ( maybe not the right word ) in Scottish situation several years before the 2014 referendum and after failed coup dètat in Catalonia situation will be worse . In 2014 I couldn`t vote but openly told Spanish friends , relatives and clients ( I have a small business ) I would have voted YES . If there`s another referendum in Scotland in the next year or so I still won`t be able to vote ( not complaining ) but I`ll certainly be aware that showing public support for a YES in Scotland might be misinterpreted as support for a vote for independence for Catalonia .

  5. #544
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    If I lived in Scotland and my opinion was based on what was shown on British TV then yes I`d be alarmed . But I live in Spain and know it`s a modern democratic country with well - prepared police forces which have a good reputation for their work in Spain and far beyond ( earthquakes in South America etc ) . It`s common knowledge that there was massive manipulation of reports of police action on the day of the illegal referendum and of statistics of injuries on the same day . Also that elderly people and children , even babies were placed on the front line on the day of the illegal vote and failed general strike a couple of days later . Almost nobody in Spain condones some of the police action on 1st October but it would be inaccurate to ignore other incidents like hotel owners being threatened with closure if they accepted police as guests or children of police being threatened at school by school authorities , etc etc ( and it`s a very long etc ) .
    You’ve lost what little credibility you had with that post. Do you think that people in Scotland are relying on the main stream media for our information on what is happening in the world? A modern democratic country doesn’t still hark back to facist leaders like Spain does.
    I find your accusations of Catalan people putting elderly and young people in the front line to be absolutely disgusting. There is only a front line because Spain has created one. The Catalan independence movement has been based on peaceful protest, and Spain doesn’t know how to deal with that. Meanwhile the counter rallies involve racists and facist salutes. Who do think is on the right side of democracy here?

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  6. #545
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    I dont think you can say the poster has lost credibility, just because you dont agree with him.

    Ive enjoyed his posts - its great to have an 'embedded' poster giving us all the alternative view.

    This is a good thread, which ive enjoyed and learned a lot from - and that includes the view from non-Catalan Spain.

    You could say that you lost credibility when you accused him of having a one sided view, then said you had the opposite view (implying your own view is just as one sided, just from the opposite side!)

  7. #546
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I dont think you can say the poster has lost credibility, just because you dont agree with him.

    Ive enjoyed his posts - its great to have an 'embedded' poster giving us all the alternative view.

    This is a good thread, which ive enjoyed and learned a lot from - and that includes the view from non-Catalan Spain.

    You could say that you lost credibility when you accused him of having a one sided view, then said you had the opposite view (implying your own view is just as one sided, just from the opposite side!)
    My view is one sided, I’m not trying to pretend it isn’t. I’m not trying to pretend to be fair and balanced either. I believe he has lost credibility by saying that the Catalan people have been putting children on the front line. That’s nonsense as protests have been peaceful, they’ve only turned violent when the Spanish police have attacked protesters.

    fwiw I also enjoy reading his posts as it’s interesting to hear how people view what’s going on from the inside. I don’t agree with him though.
    Last edited by lord bunberry; 21-04-2018 at 10:31 AM.

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  8. #547
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    I see the Spanish police were stopping and searching Barcelona fans in Madrid and making them put yellow shirts in bins before being allowed into a stadium this weekend.

    Imagine the threat to democracy from a yellow shirt?!
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  9. #548
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    I see the Spanish police were stopping and searching Barcelona fans in Madrid and making them put yellow shirts in bins before being allowed into a stadium this weekend.

    Imagine the threat to democracy from a yellow shirt?!
    Unbelievable
    https://twitter.com/cataloniahelp1/s...412934144?s=21

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  10. #549
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Rajoy has gone (a no confidence vote).
    What now for Catalonia? Same old, same old?

  11. #550
    Be interesting to see what the 'Socialists' and Sanchez do.... Much the same as here in the Uk I'd imagine! One nation bollox as per!

  12. #551
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyz23jc View Post
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    Be interesting to see what the 'Socialists' and Sanchez do.... Much the same as here in the Uk I'd imagine! One nation bollox as per!
    Yep. Solidarity with the workers we agree with.

  13. #552
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    Quote Originally Posted by xyz23jc View Post
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    Be interesting to see what the 'Socialists' and Sanchez do.... Much the same as here in the Uk I'd imagine! One nation bollox as per!
    A good start would be releasing the political prisoners.


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  14. #553
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    do the Socialist opposition in Spain back independence for Catalonia?

  15. #554
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stranraer View Post
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    do the Socialist opposition in Spain back independence for Catalonia?
    No, they’re full square against. For me, Rajoy getting emptied is just like seeing one half of the bigot brothers get humiliated in Europe - tearfully hilarious, but not hurting the other lot at all.

  16. #555
    Quote Originally Posted by Stranraer View Post
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    do the Socialist opposition in Spain back independence for Catalonia?
    There are 4 main national parties in Spain plus lots of regional parties from Canaries , Catalonia , Basque Country , Balearics etc Of the 4 national parties the 2 centre / right parties ( Partido Popular of Rajoy and very weak in Catalonia as traditionally they`ve worked with right - wing Catalanist parties before they started pushing for independence in the last few years ) and Ciudadanos ( founded in Catalonia and most - voted party last December in Catalonia ) are totally against break up of Spain . The two other main parties are socialist party ( Sanchez`s party ) which historically is strong in Catalonia especially in areas where people moved from other regions of Spain in last 50 years in search of work and Podemos ( using different names in different parts of Spain and is further left ) . The socialist party is against Catalan independence and Podemos officially too though they tend to be less vociferous about defending unity in case it upsets parts of their support in Catalonia and other parts of Spain . Parts of Podemos might support a referendum but would probably try to delay it till result was obvious . Change of president shouldn`t change Catalan situation at all .

  17. #556
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    A good start would be releasing the political prisoners.
    I may be wrong but I don`t think any president in Spain has power to release any prisoners , independent judges take those decisions . Even if that`s not the case , Sanchez supported Rajoy`s party and very openly right from the start of the Catalan crisis and I haven`t read anything to suggest his party will change now . Noone really knows what will happen in Spain now but a general election before the end of the year is probably the most likely outcome . I don`t think Catalan situation will be affected by what has happened / will happen in central government - I would guess that Ciudadanos will win general election at end of this year and form a coalition with what`s left of PP thus leading to more money and attention for Catalonia . Very hard to predict what will happen in Catalonia or rest of Spain .

  18. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Rajoy has gone (a no confidence vote).
    What now for Catalonia? Same old, same old?
    The change of president in Madrid has nothing to do with situation in Catalonia . Rajoy has gone because his party has been shown by courts ( same courts in some cases which have found strong evidence against Catalan politicians in various cases in attempted coup dètat and in financial mismanagement etc ) to have had a lot of corruption . There are many cases being investigated about the Pujol family which more or less controlled the Catalanist movement ( pushing for more autonomy etc while sending money to Andorra etc ) for decades so corruption seems to be a problem throughout Spanish politics especially where lots of public money is not controlled properly . Catalan independence movement is unlikely to benefit from accusations of corruption against politicians from rest of Spain since there have been numerous accusations of corruption in Catalonia . Worth remembering that Catalan independence movement is right wing based on poorer parts of Spain " stealing " from Catalonia .

  19. #558
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    The change of president in Madrid has nothing to do with situation in Catalonia . Rajoy has gone because his party has been shown by courts ( same courts in some cases which have found strong evidence against Catalan politicians in various cases in attempted coup dètat and in financial mismanagement etc ) to have had a lot of corruption . There are many cases being investigated about the Pujol family which more or less controlled the Catalanist movement ( pushing for more autonomy etc while sending money to Andorra etc ) for decades so corruption seems to be a problem throughout Spanish politics especially where lots of public money is not controlled properly . Catalan independence movement is unlikely to benefit from accusations of corruption against politicians from rest of Spain since there have been numerous accusations of corruption in Catalonia . Worth remembering that Catalan independence movement is right wing based on poorer parts of Spain " stealing " from Catalonia .
    I've been told the same from friends who have family there. That being the case, the two Indies movements have some fundemental differences.

  20. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    I've been told the same from friends who have family there. That being the case, the two Indies movements have some fundemental differences.
    The Catalan indy parties are centre right (PDeCat), left (ERC) and hard left (CUP).

    The basis for the “stealing” argument is the widespread belief that Catalonia contributes well above the per-head Spanish average in taxes but receives below the per-head Spanish average in spending. I don’t know how true that is. Also it’s difficult to sell that on solidarity lines when other autonomous regions (the Basques) get a better deal and there are widespread tales of corruption and ridiculous infrastructure spending like high speed train lines ignoring Barcelona but going to rural parts of Spain and the famous airport where nobody lives.

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