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  1. #421
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    So Spain wants to make the parties which support independence illegal organisations. What a shambles of a supposed democracy.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.


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  3. #422
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    So Spain wants to make the parties which support independence illegal organisations. What a shambles of a supposed democracy.
    Thatís an outrage to democracy. Iíd like to see someone defend that.

    J

  4. #423
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Dreadful article that is full of lies and inaccuracies , the sort of article which is supposed to boost Catalan independence cause but will actually probably have the opposite effect . Like the Bella Caledonia articles desperately trying to look for left - wing support for Catalan independence is ineffective . Catalanism ( movement to get better deal fpr Catalonia including for some independence ) has traditionally been right wing and even now main argument is that Catalonia is richer so why should it subsidise poorer areas ? Many Catalan nationalists consider those from the south of the peninsula to be inferior intellectually speaking , another nasty side to their movement . Areas of Catalonia where there are more families ( usually poorer ) from other parts of Spain and further afield tend to be less enthusiastic about Catalan independence . These are the real victims of " oppression " in the Catalonia of Puigdemont etc. Very sad because Catalonia used to be admired by the rest of Spain for its business sense ( but with respect for the workers ) , creativity , organisational skills and work ethic . Now the " proces " has left it with a split society and hugely damaged economy ( highest rise in unemployment figures in Spain in October and almost 2000 companies have moved registered address out of region ...in October ) . Whole situation is very sad for all of Spain but especially Catalonia but if I look for some light at the end of the tunnel it is that there are still millions of decent people all over Spain including Catalonia who don`t want division and don`t look for division unlike some foreign journalists who claim to be experts on Spain but seem to have had minimal contact with Spanish people .
    Your continual swiping away of different voices in the debate is something I'd expect from El Pais. Where is your outrage to the jailing of people for having a different view to Rajoy? Isn't it incumbent on all of the people in the debate to take each others point of view seriously. It seems that Rajoy and his cohorts have tried to diminish the voices of other political parties to his. Some democracy

    The Independence movement is from the people, not left or right. It's a grass roots movement which has been built for many years, I'd say they were the decent people trying to make their lives better.

    Another article from a Barcelona based journo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ood-referendum

    Barcelona basketball last night.

    https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/926561025738108928
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 04-11-2017 at 08:08 AM.

  5. #424
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    So Spain wants to make the parties which support independence illegal organisations. What a shambles of a supposed democracy.
    Where have you read that ? It is complete and utter rubbish . I joined this thread a few weeks ago without having any strong opinion on Catalan independence ( I`ve been in favour of Scottish independence since my teens though I don`t think that means I have to automatically support independence for Catalonia ) because I felt strongly that international press coverage of 1st October referendum especiaally from British press was far from partial . I`m assuming your claim that " Spain " ( Who is Spain ? - present government ? judges ? )want to illegalise independence parties comes from some British newspaper ( if so has British journalaism really got that low ? ) or Catalan independence website ( even then a very minority one ie from a party that is not represented in any local or regional admin ) . Independence parties have representataives all over Spain ( Catalonia , Galicia , Basque Country and in other regions there are parties which fight democratically for more rights for their regions in Aragon , Canaries ,etc ) . A tiny percentage of Spaniards may think that regional autonomy has been abused in some cases but in general despite Catalan situation I think the vast majority of Spaniards think that Spain should continue to give greater autonomy to regions than other countries in Europe . What do you think about freedom independence parties have in France ( Catalan independence supporters don`t even dare to look at French Catalans - why not ? ) or Italy or Germany ( though someone else on this thread who lives in Germany says that Bavarian independence parties are free to promote Bavarian independence in German general elections ) so I`m reluctant to use Germany as an example .
    As for " shambles of a supposed democracy " ? Why supposed and why shambles ?

  6. #425
    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Thatís an outrage to democracy. Iíd like to see someone defend that.

    J
    I`d like to see someone prove it`s true . It`s definitely not true . Independence parties exist all over Spain and have done since the transition which started in the mid 1970s and has been acclaimed all over the world as a model for other countries to follow .
    What is an outrage and certainly has many people to defend it though maybe not publicly because of fear is :

    1. Anti Spanish indoctrinataion in Catalan school classrooms in the last 30 years and in university lectures too .
    2. Systematic implantation of independence supporters in influential positions in public services in last decade .
    3. Complete media bias in Catalan TV and radio .
    In all 3 cases we are talking of services funded by taxpayers .

    I`ve no idea of your politics but I`m guessing that you`re sympathetic to Scottish independence ( many in favour of Scottish independence who follow European politics support Catalan and i suppose Corsican , Welsh , Cornish , Breton , Bavarian , etc ) like me . In the cases of Catalonia / Scotland I`m similar to you in that I look at Catalonia from the south of Spain while you look at Scotland from the south of England . I`ve no emotional tie to Catalonia while you do to Scotland . But I have lived in Spain for many years and think that any British journalist who questions degree of democracy in Spain compared with any other country in Europe is either biassed or has very limited knowledge of European politics .

  7. #426
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Your continual swiping away of different voices in the debate is something I'd expect from El Pais. Where is your outrage to the jailing of people for having a different view to Rajoy? Isn't it incumbent on all of the people in the debate to take each others point of view seriously. It seems that Rajoy and his cohorts have tried to diminish the voices of other political parties to his. Some democracy

    The Independence movement is from the people, not left or right. It's a grass roots movement which has been built for many years, I'd say they were the decent people trying to make their lives better.

    Another article from a Barcelona based journo.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ood-referendum

    Barcelona basketball last night.

    https://twitter.com/twitter/statuses/926561025738108928
    I`m not quite sure what your point is here . We`re exchanging opinions here because we happen to support the same football team and we`re both interested in the political situation in Catalonia albeit for different reasons ( in my case because I live in Spain and for numerous reasons have an opinion on the issue ) . You`ll have your reasons though you haven`t actually said what you know about Spain and Spanish politics to make you have such clear opinions . You rightly ( in my opinion ) say that present Catalonia problem is not a left / right problem but then have a go at Rajoy . I`ve been open about where my opinions come from ( living in Spain but never in Catalonia though I have visited parts of region many times ) but I`m not sure where your knowledge of Catalans comes from . Or your knowledge of the Spanish press ? Of course the majority of Catalan independence supporters are decent people just as the vast majority of Catalans who feel happier combining a Catalan parliament in Barcelona with a national parliament in Madrid are also decent people ( in many cases we`re talking of brothers and sisters ) .
    You may have strong links with Catalonia ( live there or have lived there or are speaking on behalf of friends / relatives who do for example ) so base your opinion on that ( have noticed oppression from Spanish authorities for example ) or may be basing your opinions on history books you`ve read . Whichever I presume you`ll respect the opinions of the millions of Catalans who have not had the luck to be protected by foreign journalists ( doesn`t sell books ) or more importantly by their regional authorities .

  8. #427
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Where have you read that ? It is complete and utter rubbish . I joined this thread a few weeks ago without having any strong opinion on Catalan independence ( I`ve been in favour of Scottish independence since my teens though I don`t think that means I have to automatically support independence for Catalonia ) because I felt strongly that international press coverage of 1st October referendum especiaally from British press was far from partial . I`m assuming your claim that " Spain " ( Who is Spain ? - present government ? judges ? )want to illegalise independence parties comes from some British newspaper ( if so has British journalaism really got that low ? ) or Catalan independence website ( even then a very minority one ie from a party that is not represented in any local or regional admin ) . Independence parties have representataives all over Spain ( Catalonia , Galicia , Basque Country and in other regions there are parties which fight democratically for more rights for their regions in Aragon , Canaries ,etc ) . A tiny percentage of Spaniards may think that regional autonomy has been abused in some cases but in general despite Catalan situation I think the vast majority of Spaniards think that Spain should continue to give greater autonomy to regions than other countries in Europe . What do you think about freedom independence parties have in France ( Catalan independence supporters don`t even dare to look at French Catalans - why not ? ) or Italy or Germany ( though someone else on this thread who lives in Germany says that Bavarian independence parties are free to promote Bavarian independence in German general elections ) so I`m reluctant to use Germany as an example .
    As for " shambles of a supposed democracy " ? Why supposed and why shambles ?
    I read that VOX (far-right party) had applied to the courts to have PDECat, the ERC and the CUP (independence supporting political parties) illegal. I can't find the original source, but I think it was a blogger who isn't in Spain or the UK.



    Here you go, straight from VOX official twitter account

    URGENTE VOX iniciarŠ maŮana acciones para ilegalizaciůn de las organizaciones criminales al servicio del golpe de Estado: CUP, ERC, PdCAT



    and



    https://okdiario.com/espana/cataluna/2017/11/04/vox-pedira-tribunales-ilegalizar-pdecat-erc-cup-participar-golpe-1481009?utm_term=Autofeed&utm_campaign=ok&utm_medi um=social&utm_source=Twitter#link_time=1509779353



    Last edited by Golden Fleece; 05-11-2017 at 11:06 AM.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  9. #428
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    I`m not quite sure what your point is here . We`re exchanging opinions here because we happen to support the same football team and we`re both interested in the political situation in Catalonia albeit for different reasons ( in my case because I live in Spain and for numerous reasons have an opinion on the issue ) . You`ll have your reasons though you haven`t actually said what you know about Spain and Spanish politics to make you have such clear opinions . You rightly ( in my opinion ) say that present Catalonia problem is not a left / right problem but then have a go at Rajoy . I`ve been open about where my opinions come from ( living in Spain but never in Catalonia though I have visited parts of region many times ) but I`m not sure where your knowledge of Catalans comes from . Or your knowledge of the Spanish press ? Of course the majority of Catalan independence supporters are decent people just as the vast majority of Catalans who feel happier combining a Catalan parliament in Barcelona with a national parliament in Madrid are also decent people ( in many cases we`re talking of brothers and sisters ) .
    You may have strong links with Catalonia ( live there or have lived there or are speaking on behalf of friends / relatives who do for example ) so base your opinion on that ( have noticed oppression from Spanish authorities for example ) or may be basing your opinions on history books you`ve read . Whichever I presume you`ll respect the opinions of the millions of Catalans who have not had the luck to be protected by foreign journalists ( doesn`t sell books ) or more importantly by their regional authorities .
    Do I have to have a point to post about the wrongdoings of the Spanish state against the Catalans, on a thread about Catalonia? I'd rather not see old grannies getting beat over the head by a supposed European democratic state, or political activists/Elected representatives being sent to jail for holding different views to others. I've got friends in Bilbao, and have regular contact with people in Catalonia which forms my opinions on the subject. Shirley I don't have to live in the country to be able to form an opinion, and state it?

    I've been delighted to hear your views on Catalonia, although you've said you don't live there. I am also interested to hear your views on the way forward for Catalonia, the Basque country, and others. It seems to me the politicos in Madrid are dealing with this current situation in a rather crude way.

    The bit in bold...I presume you mean the elected officials in the elected parliament in Catalonia, of which a majority hold the view that Independence is the way forward. If the Catalan people feel they don't represent their views, they had the chance to remove them, by the ballot box of course, and not by jailing them.

    Each to their own though.
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 06-11-2017 at 01:22 PM.

  10. #429
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Itís unbelievable that in 2017 we have political prisoners in a major European country. I wonít be going back to Spain while this is still the case.

    GIRLS DONT LIKE BOYS GIRLS LIKE SIMON MURRAY

  11. #430
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Do I have to have a point to post about the wrongdoings of the Spanish state against the Catalans, on a thread about Catalonia? I'd rather not see old grannies getting beat over the head by a supposed European democratic state, or political activists/Elected representatives being sent to jail for holding different views to others. I've got friends in Bilbao, and have regular contact with people in Catalonia which forms my opinions on the subject. Shirley I don't have to live in the country to be able to form an opinion, and state it?

    I've been delighted to hear your views on Catalonia, although you've said you don't live there. I am also interested to hear your views on the way forward for Catalonia, the Basque country, and others. It seems to me the politicos in Madrid are dealing with this current situation in a rather crude way.

    The bit in bold...I presume you mean the elected officials in the elected parliament in Catalonia, of which a majority hold the view that Independence is the way forward. If the Catalan people feel they don't represent their views, they had the chance to remove them, by the ballot box of course, and not by jailing them.

    Each to their own though.
    First of all genuine thanks for answering . Ironic that there`s better debate here than in Catalonia but then we`re lucky we`re not there so can debate freely something that has not been possible there in the last decade or so .
    Think people have to remember this is an exceptional case and whatever happens in next few days / weeks / months /years ( How many times have I said the same since October 1st ? ) people will be talking about it hundreds of years from now as an example ( good or bad ) of how ( not ) to fight for independence and whether it was successful or a failure or neither as I suggested two weeks ago though when an independent Catalonia but with a hugely split country in financial ruin looked possible . Totally different from Scotland in 2014 when a referendum was held and results more or less accepted . Catalonia referendum on 1st October was a huge part of the " proces " which was started a number ( 2 , 5 , 10 or more ? ) of years ago to get independence for Catalonia even if majority of Catalans don`t want it or don`t care enough about it to vote for it . It`s been a highly sophisticated " proces " which has involved gaining control of councils and other public authorities , using public organisations to promote the cause at home and abroad ( Catalan embassies , academics in foreign universities..) . Highly sophisticated and therefore very expensive so taxpayers`money has paid for referendum ,embassies etc. Ironically the greatest ally of the " proces " seems to have been the last few Spanish governments of right and left who have done nothing to reduce problems ( too worried about other problems - financial crisis etc ? complacency ? frightened by Catalan reaction on street ? ) until it was too late and article 155 had to be implemented even though it has hardly changed anything in Catalonia or elsewhere in Spain .
    Ultimately leaders of " proces " couldn`t fulfill their dreams without breaking numerous laws ( financial fraud , data protection and a lot more ) and splitting Catalan society so badly that next few decades as an independent state or as a part of Spain will be difficult and causing numerous financial problems . Even their own economic experts had warned that an independent Catalonia is / was not viable now or in the forthcoming years ( another difference with what could have happened in Scotland after a Yes vote in 2014 ) and would have needed much more preparation ( economy , border control..) . Politicians in prison gives " proces " followers some oxygen but how much depends on how much evidence of abuse of public power and money comes out before December elections .
    If I lived in Scotland I might well be very sympathetic to the cause of Catalan independence but having found out more about how the whole movement seems to have bee run find it hard to have anay sympathy .

  12. #431
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    First of all genuine thanks for answering . Ironic that there`s better debate here than in Catalonia but then we`re lucky we`re not there so can debate freely something that has not been possible there in the last decade or so .
    Think people have to remember this is an exceptional case and whatever happens in next few days / weeks / months /years ( How many times have I said the same since October 1st ? ) people will be talking about it hundreds of years from now as an example ( good or bad ) of how ( not ) to fight for independence and whether it was successful or a failure or neither as I suggested two weeks ago though when an independent Catalonia but with a hugely split country in financial ruin looked possible . Totally different from Scotland in 2014 when a referendum was held and results more or less accepted . Catalonia referendum on 1st October was a huge part of the " proces " which was started a number ( 2 , 5 , 10 or more ? ) of years ago to get independence for Catalonia even if majority of Catalans don`t want it or don`t care enough about it to vote for it . It`s been a highly sophisticated " proces " which has involved gaining control of councils and other public authorities , using public organisations to promote the cause at home and abroad ( Catalan embassies , academics in foreign universities..) . Highly sophisticated and therefore very expensive so taxpayers`money has paid for referendum ,embassies etc. Ironically the greatest ally of the " proces " seems to have been the last few Spanish governments of right and left who have done nothing to reduce problems ( too worried about other problems - financial crisis etc ? complacency ? frightened by Catalan reaction on street ? ) until it was too late and article 155 had to be implemented even though it has hardly changed anything in Catalonia or elsewhere in Spain .
    Ultimately leaders of " proces " couldn`t fulfill their dreams without breaking numerous laws ( financial fraud , data protection and a lot more ) and splitting Catalan society so badly that next few decades as an independent state or as a part of Spain will be difficult and causing numerous financial problems . Even their own economic experts had warned that an independent Catalonia is / was not viable now or in the forthcoming years ( another difference with what could have happened in Scotland after a Yes vote in 2014 ) and would have needed much more preparation ( economy , border control..) . Politicians in prison gives " proces " followers some oxygen but how much depends on how much evidence of abuse of public power and money comes out before December elections .
    If I lived in Scotland I might well be very sympathetic to the cause of Catalan independence but having found out more about how the whole movement seems to have bee run find it hard to have anay sympathy .

    Have to say I think you're overegging the pudding somewhat. To say there hasn't been free debate in Catalonia is nonsense. It's not like the Ciudadonos leadership has been locked up or anything.

    The 2015 election was called early specifically to address the question of an independence referendum. The Junts pel Si coalition stood on a mandate of the "proces", openly declared they would hold a referendum and if they won, would declare independence. The result was pro-Indy 48%, anti-Indy 39%, officially-ambivalent-but-favouring-a-referendum 11%.

    The mandate of parties seeking a legally agreed referendum seems unquestionable to me and every poll shows 70-80% support in Catalonia for such a referendum. Now, you might say that the independentistas were somewhat foolhardy to press ahead without agreement, and I have some sympathy for that, but what else could they do? They made every attempt to agree a negotiated referendum but were stonewalled at every turn, so they carried out what they said they'd do when they put themselves before the electorate.

    An independent Catalonia would be more than economically viable unless Spain and the EU act in a vindictive way against it (and to be fair, there's every sign that if it came to it, that's exactly what they'd do).

  13. #432
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Iím finding it heartbreaking seeing all the stuff on Twitter from the brave people of Catalonia. Democracy is dead in Spain, corruption and fascism has taken over.

    GIRLS DONT LIKE BOYS GIRLS LIKE SIMON MURRAY

  14. #433
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    Iím finding it heartbreaking seeing all the stuff on Twitter from the brave people of Catalonia. Democracy is dead in Spain, corruption and fascism has taken over.
    Not taking sides here but some would say exactly the same as you but with the " brave Catalans " being those who are against independence but have had to keep quiet and see their rights eroded over the years and totally ignored in the last 2 or 3 . And accusations of " fascism " would be aimed at those who`ve led the independence movement . Situation is far from clear yet and division caused by independence movement ( I refer to the independence movement of the last decade since past and future movements may be considered far more acceptable by all democrats ) will take generations to cure . I`m trying to be positive and think that democracy in Catalonia is going to resusitate now after a decade in gradual decline culminataing in almost no democracay at all in the last few months ie many Catalans felt that democracy was dead in Catalonia . Hopefully , Catalonia can recover socially and economically so that ALL Catalans can live without intimidation and division and democratically ALL Catalans can decide their future . If the majority of Catalans want it , would love to see Scotland and Catalonia as new independent countries in 10 years`time ( I say 10 because in Catalonia`s case 10 would be an absolute minimum after problems caused by present movement ) IF both places ( can`t say country or nation for Catalonia ) can achieve a democratic independence with a clear majority and respecting the rights of the minority against independence too .

  15. #434
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Not taking sides here but some would say exactly the same as you but with the " brave Catalans " being those who are against independence but have had to keep quiet and see their rights eroded over the years and totally ignored in the last 2 or 3 . And accusations of " fascism " would be aimed at those who`ve led the independence movement . Situation is far from clear yet and division caused by independence movement ( I refer to the independence movement of the last decade since past and future movements may be considered far more acceptable by all democrats ) will take generations to cure . I`m trying to be positive and think that democracy in Catalonia is going to resusitate now after a decade in gradual decline culminataing in almost no democracay at all in the last few months ie many Catalans felt that democracy was dead in Catalonia . Hopefully , Catalonia can recover socially and economically so that ALL Catalans can live without intimidation and division and democratically ALL Catalans can decide their future . If the majority of Catalans want it , would love to see Scotland and Catalonia as new independent countries in 10 years`time ( I say 10 because in Catalonia`s case 10 would be an absolute minimum after problems caused by present movement ) IF both places ( can`t say country or nation for Catalonia ) can achieve a democratic independence with a clear majority and respecting the rights of the minority against independence too .
    The only reason that democracy is dead in Catalonia is that the Spanish government refuse to allow a referendum on their independence. Have the referendum, see what the people want and move on from there. Easy.

  16. #435
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Not taking sides here but some would say exactly the same as you but with the " brave Catalans " being those who are against independence but have had to keep quiet and see their rights eroded over the years and totally ignored in the last 2 or 3 . And accusations of " fascism " would be aimed at those who`ve led the independence movement . Situation is far from clear yet and division caused by independence movement ( I refer to the independence movement of the last decade since past and future movements may be considered far more acceptable by all democrats ) will take generations to cure . I`m trying to be positive and think that democracy in Catalonia is going to resusitate now after a decade in gradual decline culminataing in almost no democracay at all in the last few months ie many Catalans felt that democracy was dead in Catalonia . Hopefully , Catalonia can recover socially and economically so that ALL Catalans can live without intimidation and division and democratically ALL Catalans can decide their future . If the majority of Catalans want it , would love to see Scotland and Catalonia as new independent countries in 10 years`time ( I say 10 because in Catalonia`s case 10 would be an absolute minimum after problems caused by present movement ) IF both places ( can`t say country or nation for Catalonia ) can achieve a democratic independence with a clear majority and respecting the rights of the minority against independence too .
    How can you say that? Democracy has existed in Catalonia for a long time, until the Spanish government decided it didnít like like what democracy meant and started imprisoning democratically elected people for carrying out the wishes of those who elected them. We have judges blaming the peaceful protesters for the violence carried out by the Spanish police, and journalists being jailed for supporting a democratically elected government. Nothing has been seen like this in Europe since the 1940s. I presume you live in Spain and are unaware of how the situation looks from the outside.
    Its an absolute scandal that the EU are standing by Spain and allowing this to happen. I fully expect Junker to emerge from an aeroplane waving a piece of paper soon.
    We shouldnít be allowing this to happen.

    GIRLS DONT LIKE BOYS GIRLS LIKE SIMON MURRAY

  17. #436
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    How can you say that? Democracy has existed in Catalonia for a long time, until the Spanish government decided it didnít like like what democracy meant and started imprisoning democratically elected people for carrying out the wishes of those who elected them. We have judges blaming the peaceful protesters for the violence carried out by the Spanish police, and journalists being jailed for supporting a democratically elected government. Nothing has been seen like this in Europe since the 1940s. I presume you live in Spain and are unaware of how the situation looks from the outside.
    Its an absolute scandal that the EU are standing by Spain and allowing this to happen. I fully expect Junker to emerge from an aeroplane waving a piece of paper soon.
    We shouldnít be allowing this to happen.
    Yes I live in Spain though in the south . I`m aware that foreign press coverage has often not been favourable to Spain during recent political crisis ( I joined this thread after the illegal referendum of 1st October to comment on press bias more than opinion on Catalan independence - at the time most disagreed with me but since then claims of false images etc have been confirmed ) . For some reason anti Spain bias has been particularly noticeable in the British press - Brexit affect ? British academics who sell books about Franco ? Obviously in Scotland there are extra reasons for some Scots being extra sympathetic towards an independence movement against a bigger neighbour though there are many differences between the two situations . Whole situation is very sad for all of Spain but especially for Catalonia which has been left scarred socially and economically and will take a long time to recover .
    One of the interesting aspects of whole situation has been the international press coverage . The independence movement " proces " were very aware of need for international support and have devoted many hours and euros in the last decade to inviting foreign journalists to Catalonia , conferences in Catalonia and abroad etc and were very quick to send images of supposed police violence on day of " referendum " even though some of the images were from several years before on days of strikes with police actually Catalan regional police service . The Spanish government was very slow to try to offer some balance to international press coverage . As for European Union , do you expect them to support a movement which has broken so many laws in the last few years apart from the fact that the EU doesn`t want member states breaking up ( Brexit gives Scotland a chance for independence which it wouldn`t have had with Britain within the UK even with a Yes vote in 2014 ) .
    A few other points : 1. Who are the detained journalists you refer to ? I`m not aware of any journalists being detained ? Are you meaning ex president Puigdemont who was a journalist before he became a politician ? 2. When have judges blamed peaceful protesters for violence carried out by others ? Lastly but most important is that you say that there has been democracy in Catalonia for a long time . This is the real issue - many would say that there has been full democracy in all of Spain since the transition ( starting in early 80s ) except in Catalonia in the last few years when the regional government has had full control of the parliament ( closed it down for a couple of weeks soon after " referendum " to prevent debate and on the day of the declaration of independence ( now only " symbolic " ? ) didn`t let opposition have full right of debate , media ( still have control of public TV and radio in Catalonia ) and a huge political influence in other sectors ( education especially ) . In short , there has not been full democracy in Catalonia in recent years .

  18. #437
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    The only reason that democracy is dead in Catalonia is that the Spanish government refuse to allow a referendum on their independence. Have the referendum, see what the people want and move on from there. Easy.
    Living in Germany you`ll know what it`s like to live in a country where regions have a lot of autonomy but the constitution makes it very difficult for those regions to get independence . How easy would it be for Bavaria or any other region of Germanay to have a fully - binding referendum ? The Spanish constitution is based on the German one with the now ( in ) famous article 155 ( which so far has been a massive success ) also coming from the German constitution although with another number . Spain is supposed to be the European country which offers regions most autonomy after Germany and Catalonia has had more autonomy than other Spanish regions .
    Many ways of interpreting why democracy is " dead " in Catalonia . Those that say it is now ( at demonstrations in last couple of weeks or in declarations from party meetings in Brussels ) have been in charge in the last few years with complete control of parliament . media , education , etc and have broken numerous Spanish and Catalan laws to keep control . Their political opponents in Catalonia will say that this stranglehold of media , education and other public institutions has meant that democracy has been far from perfect in the last decade or much longer .
    Whoever is right , situations are very different from those in Britain ( for history and legal situation etc ) and probably Germany ( not sure how Germaan central government would react to challenge to constitution ) .

  19. #438
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Living in Germany you`ll know what it`s like to live in a country where regions have a lot of autonomy but the constitution makes it very difficult for those regions to get independence . How easy would it be for Bavaria or any other region of Germanay to have a fully - binding referendum ? The Spanish constitution is based on the German one with the now ( in ) famous article 155 ( which so far has been a massive success ) also coming from the German constitution although with another number . Spain is supposed to be the European country which offers regions most autonomy after Germany and Catalonia has had more autonomy than other Spanish regions .
    Many ways of interpreting why democracy is " dead " in Catalonia . Those that say it is now ( at demonstrations in last couple of weeks or in declarations from party meetings in Brussels ) have been in charge in the last few years with complete control of parliament . media , education , etc and have broken numerous Spanish and Catalan laws to keep control . Their political opponents in Catalonia will say that this stranglehold of media , education and other public institutions has meant that democracy has been far from perfect in the last decade or much longer .
    Whoever is right , situations are very different from those in Britain ( for history and legal situation etc ) and probably Germany ( not sure how Germaan central government would react to challenge to constitution ) .
    It would take a 2/3 majority in the German parliament to allow a referendum on a Bavarian independence vote. It is possible although unlikely as less than 1/3 of the Bavarian population would even consider it. However, if that was to change I'm certain that Germany unlike Spain has learned from its fascist past and would recognise the democratic will of the people.

  20. #439
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Yes I live in Spain though in the south . I`m aware that foreign press coverage has often not been favourable to Spain during recent political crisis ( I joined this thread after the illegal referendum of 1st October to comment on press bias more than opinion on Catalan independence - at the time most disagreed with me but since then claims of false images etc have been confirmed ) . For some reason anti Spain bias has been particularly noticeable in the British press - Brexit affect ? British academics who sell books about Franco ? Obviously in Scotland there are extra reasons for some Scots being extra sympathetic towards an independence movement against a bigger neighbour though there are many differences between the two situations . Whole situation is very sad for all of Spain but especially for Catalonia which has been left scarred socially and economically and will take a long time to recover .
    One of the interesting aspects of whole situation has been the international press coverage . The independence movement " proces " were very aware of need for international support and have devoted many hours and euros in the last decade to inviting foreign journalists to Catalonia , conferences in Catalonia and abroad etc and were very quick to send images of supposed police violence on day of " referendum " even though some of the images were from several years before on days of strikes with police actually Catalan regional police service . The Spanish government was very slow to try to offer some balance to international press coverage . As for European Union , do you expect them to support a movement which has broken so many laws in the last few years apart from the fact that the EU doesn`t want member states breaking up ( Brexit gives Scotland a chance for independence which it wouldn`t have had with Britain within the UK even with a Yes vote in 2014 ) .
    A few other points : 1. Who are the detained journalists you refer to ? I`m not aware of any journalists being detained ? Are you meaning ex president Puigdemont who was a journalist before he became a politician ? 2. When have judges blamed peaceful protesters for violence carried out by others ? Lastly but most important is that you say that there has been democracy in Catalonia for a long time . This is the real issue - many would say that there has been full democracy in all of Spain since the transition ( starting in early 80s ) except in Catalonia in the last few years when the regional government has had full control of the parliament ( closed it down for a couple of weeks soon after " referendum " to prevent debate and on the day of the declaration of independence ( now only " symbolic " ? ) didn`t let opposition have full right of debate , media ( still have control of public TV and radio in Catalonia ) and a huge political influence in other sectors ( education especially ) . In short , there has not been full democracy in Catalonia in recent years .

    You're last few sentences regarding democracy in Catalonia. None of the things you're pointing out relate to "last few years". Yes, the independentistas have played fast and loose with the autonomous parliament's rules and regulations, but only since September, that's not even 3 months ago!

    And the reason they did so is pretty clear. They knew they had to compress the time between voting for a non-agreed referendum and actually staging it in order to give the Spanish government as little time as possible to disrupt it.

    Anyway, now that "order" has been restored via 155 and the December election will be held under the full "democratic" protection of the Spanish state, what will happen if the independentistas win again? Nobody can claim the people are somehow being hoodwinked any longer, surely?

  21. #440
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Now, this did make me chuckle, but, if the BBC saw fit to ban 'Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead' when a certain former prime Minister died how could a state boradcaster possibly think this is acceptable?

    IberianHibernian has accused the Catalan media of bias, what are your views on this?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41977385


    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  22. #441
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Now, this did make me chuckle, but, if the BBC saw fit to ban 'Ding Dong, the Witch is Dead' when a certain former prime Minister died how could a state boradcaster possibly think this is acceptable?

    IberianHibernian has accused the Catalan media of bias, what are your views on this?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41977385


    So, the BBC refer to the TV station as, the Spanish State Broadcaster. I suppose it is State owned, unlike the BBC.

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