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Thread: Catalonia

  1. #301
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Pro-indy Catalan benches still empty - Euronews reporting that Puigdemont is speaking to Jean Claude Juncker.

    Edit: Session postponed for an hour.
    Beat me.

    Businesses threatened to leave Catalonia. Where have you heard that before?
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.


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  3. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Beat me.

    Businesses threatened to leave Catalonia. Where have you heard that before?
    They haven't threatened anything...they have already done it. Most of the Catalan based businesses in the IBEX have already moved their legal bases to Madrid or the like.

  4. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    It's the National Police that would be expected to arrest him not the Catalan Police.

    So not the military although I assume they are a quasi military force anyway...
    Makes more sense - cheers.

    I had visions of SAS style rapelling down the outsidd and throwing in grenades

  5. #304
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    They haven't threatened anything...they have already done it. Most of the Catalan based businesses in the IBEX have already moved their legal bases to Madrid or the like.
    Similar to the RBS shifting their Registered Office to England - type scenario then?

    Presumably the staff remain in Catalonia, paying taxes and contributing to the economy.

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  6. #305
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    Puigdemont hits the ball back to Madrid after talks with Tusk and the EU for more dialogue. Rajoy will be spewing.

  7. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Similar to the RBS shifting their Registered Office to England - type scenario then?

    Presumably the staff remain in Catalonia, paying taxes and contributing to the economy.

    Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk
    I assume so but not sure of what the ramifications would be if there was an Declaration of Independence...I assume the taxes would be to Madrid but honestly not following it that closely.

    The poster suggested there was threats to leave I was merely pointing out that the legal home of most of the big Catalan companies had already been changed...

  8. #307
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    So they shat it.

    This is getting more and more like Scotland... 😈

  9. #308
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    They haven't threatened anything...they have already done it. Most of the Catalan based businesses in the IBEX have already moved their legal bases to Madrid or the like.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41582469

    Catalonia is is one of Spain's wealthiest regions, but a stream of companies has announced plans to move head offices out of Catalonia in response to the crisis.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  10. #309
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    To me that report read as a wee bit weighted. That's not like Auntie at all.

  11. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    To me that report read as a wee bit weighted. That's not like Auntie at all.
    I'm really struggling to see why you would think that.
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  12. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    I'm really struggling to see why you would think that.
    I agree with you it's not blatantly obvious however, subtleties like "the man that's trying to break up Spain" instead of "the man who seeks freedom for Catelonia" is what I mean. Why not just say "Carles Puigdemont, the Catelonian leader?"

  13. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    subtleties like "the man that's trying to break up Spain" instead of "the man who seeks freedom for Catelonia"
    The first one is a statement of fact, I suppose. The second is predicated on the fact that the writer believes that Catalonia isn’t free already.

  14. #313
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beefster View Post
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    The first one is a statement of fact, I suppose. The second is predicated on the fact that the writer believes that Catalonia isn’t free already.
    But he is only wanting to "take back control" for the state of Catalonia from Spain.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  15. #314
    The political nature of the Spanish police is quite something.

    This is from the twitter of the Union Federal de Policia, which I think is the equivalent of the Police Federation here.



    ("Hablamos?" means "let's talk" and was the slogan, along with the Catalan "Parlem?", of a peace demo in Barcelona last weekend.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Beat me.

    Businesses threatened to leave Catalonia. Where have you heard that before?
    Yet people have no trouble believing that the city of london will up sticks and move to Europe.

    Seems people believing what they want to believe.

    Fwiw, any international business (or a business that would suddenly become international) will have to takr into account any changes to their business environment, especially major ones like indy, brexit or catalexit.

    The good news is its not as simple as just upping sticks and moving. Look at the trouble the EMA is having in relocating from London.

  17. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The political nature of the Spanish police is quite something.

    This is from the twitter of the Union Federal de Policia, which I think is the equivalent of the Police Federation here.



    ("Hablamos?" means "let's talk" and was the slogan, along with the Catalan "Parlem?", of a peace demo in Barcelona last weekend.)
    That is slightly sinister...

  18. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    As you are resident in Spain, I'm interested in how the news you're getting is so far removed from the stuff I can see on social media. The scenes of violence I witnessed a week passed Sunday really happened, didn't they?

    I know that 350,000 marched yesterday in Barcelona for the State to remain intact, and I take your point that many were bussed in for the march, from outwith Catalonia, but I can't think of many who were bussed from outside Catalonia in the Million that marched a week passed Sunday, for Independence.

    What's your thoughts on the folk on the march yesterday? Is it fine to have fascists on the streets of Spain again?
    I haven`t added to this thread for a week for a few reasons one being that I think whole issue is far too important to be treated like a student union debate . Millions of Spaniards of all political persuasions have worked tirelessly to make Spain a modern, democratic nation in the last 40 odd years . Many of them have parents or grandparents who were victims of Franco regime (or try to forget that their ancestors supported Franco). Catalan president is a good example - his maternal grandfather was forced to leave Spain cause of Francoist oppression while his paternal grandfather also left Spain then returned (in this case to Andalusia) because he fought for Franco`s forces but escaped from his republican enemies . You seem to know a lot about Spanish society in the 21st century thus you feel confident enough to ask if I or anyone else who lives in Spain feels happy about the presence of some " fascists " in a demonstration - would you ask the same of a German joining a demonstration against independence for Bavaria or any other part of Germany if a couple of hundred idiots used occasion to make their presence felt ? Ironically too the term " fascism " has been used more in recent years to refer to Catalan independence supporters who have managed to impose their ideas in schools and other places in Catalonia . I`ve already said I believe all Catalans should have the right to decide if they want to remain part of Spain and the EU but that decision must be made in a legal vote and once there are guarantees that such a vote is possible .
    Incidentally , re your comments about transportation to demonstration on 8th October and march on 1st October ( what march - were people not trying to vote that day ? ) do you really believe any statistics given ?

  19. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The political nature of the Spanish police is quite something.

    This is from the twitter of the Union Federal de Policia, which I think is the equivalent of the Police Federation here.



    ("Hablamos?" means "let's talk" and was the slogan, along with the Catalan "Parlem?", of a peace demo in Barcelona last weekend.)
    Are you seriously trying to say that this reflects ideas of Spanish people in the 21st century whatever region they live in or whether they are members of the police or armed forces or not ?

  20. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Are you seriously trying to say that this reflects ideas of Spanish people in the 21st century whatever region they live in or whether they are members of the police or armed forces or not ?
    tbh, when I saw it I assumed it was a spoof account but the twitter feed is embedded in their website, http://www.ufpol.org/ , and it's full of highly politicised anti-Catalan-independentist stuff. That pic is probably the standout example.

    I'd never heard of the UFP until yesterday, so I don't know if they are the main police union or some small offshoot of something else. Do they represent mainstream police opinion? I have no idea, you tell me?

    I wasn't saying anything about "ideas of Spanish people", I am saying they appear to have a highly politicised police force. I can't imagine a UK police organisation tweeting anything of the sort without it being a huge scandal.

  21. #320
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    Are you seriously trying to say that this reflects ideas of Spanish people in the 21st century whatever region they live in or whether they are members of the police or armed forces or not ?
    I took it as the police of whatever section should, in a democracy, be there for all the people and should refrain from showing political views, don't you think that's fair enough?
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  22. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    I haven`t added to this thread for a week for a few reasons one being that I think whole issue is far too important to be treated like a student union debate . Millions of Spaniards of all political persuasions have worked tirelessly to make Spain a modern, democratic nation in the last 40 odd years . Many of them have parents or grandparents who were victims of Franco regime (or try to forget that their ancestors supported Franco). Catalan president is a good example - his maternal grandfather was forced to leave Spain cause of Francoist oppression while his paternal grandfather also left Spain then returned (in this case to Andalusia) because he fought for Franco`s forces but escaped from his republican enemies . You seem to know a lot about Spanish society in the 21st century thus you feel confident enough to ask if I or anyone else who lives in Spain feels happy about the presence of some " fascists " in a demonstration - would you ask the same of a German joining a demonstration against independence for Bavaria or any other part of Germany if a couple of hundred idiots used occasion to make their presence felt ? Ironically too the term " fascism " has been used more in recent years to refer to Catalan independence supporters who have managed to impose their ideas in schools and other places in Catalonia . I`ve already said I believe all Catalans should have the right to decide if they want to remain part of Spain and the EU but that decision must be made in a legal vote and once there are guarantees that such a vote is possible .
    Incidentally , re your comments about transportation to demonstration on 8th October and march on 1st October ( what march - were people not trying to vote that day ? ) do you really believe any statistics given ?
    Absolutely agree with that, but how do you propose they go about securing such a vote?

    Do you follow the PP line that they must persuade the rest of Spain to change the constitution by achieving a 2/3 majority of the Spanish parliament and a referendum in all of Spain? When the PP knows fine well it will always implacably oppose that change and have the numbers to get the 1/3 it needs to block it?

    From an outsider's limited viewpoint, it would appear that the "constitutional path" is an absolute dead end.

  23. #322
    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    I took it as the police of whatever section should, in a democracy, be there for all the people and should refrain from showing political views, don't you think that's fair enough?
    I agree 100% and am not quite sure why you are asking me . Of the three police forces which are legally obliged to protect the interests of everyone in Catalonia ( Catalan run Mossos and nationally run Guardia Civil and Policia Nacional ) it`s only the Mossos ( and even then only a very small number with others regretting behaviour of some of their colleagues ) that have been accused of being influenced politically . I`d already seen the picture with police and agree it`s a joke in very bad taste intended to be read by colleagues at a time of maximum tension ( police being forced to leave hotels etc without being able to act as any police force in Europe would in similar circumstances for example and children being harassed at school ) . Fortunately I`ve only had very limited contact with the police in Spain but I`ve had enough contact to say without any doubt at all that politically their views reflect the ideas of Spaniards all over Spain including Catalonia and the Basque Country .

  24. #323
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    tbh, when I saw it I assumed it was a spoof account but the twitter feed is embedded in their website, http://www.ufpol.org/ , and it's full of highly politicised anti-Catalan-independentist stuff. That pic is probably the standout example.

    I'd never heard of the UFP until yesterday, so I don't know if they are the main police union or some small offshoot of something else. Do they represent mainstream police opinion? I have no idea, you tell me?

    I wasn't saying anything about "ideas of Spanish people", I am saying they appear to have a highly politicised police force. I can't imagine a UK police organisation tweeting anything of the sort without it being a huge scandal.
    I`d already seen the picture on webpage of sports paper Marca . I`m not sure exactly who was supposed to read it and who not but assumed it was a joke ( in very bad taste ) intended for police colleagues posted at a moment of maximum tension for police forces with uncertainty about what was happening in Catalonia and police being harrassed in hotels etc but unable to retaliate in case it caused even more problems ( threads like this show how important propoganda is and Catalan independence movement are several years ahead of rest of Spain in this issue - infiltration of education and police systems for example ) . More importantly , I disagree with your comment about highly politicised police force - I base that opinion on what I observe in everyday life in Spain and people I have met over many years . As for comparisons with UK police forces - you are talking about a tweet intended for workmates , not something meant for the general public : I suppose there are group chats within Scottish Police , English police forces which sometimes include jokes which could be considered to be in bad taste . I`m guessing here but I suspect that the % of Catalan police who would vote for independence would be similar to % in Police Scotland for Scottish independence - high 30s % on both sides with same % against independence and rest unsure .

  25. #324
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Absolutely agree with that, but how do you propose they go about securing such a vote?

    Do you follow the PP line that they must persuade the rest of Spain to change the constitution by achieving a 2/3 majority of the Spanish parliament and a referendum in all of Spain? When the PP knows fine well it will always implacably oppose that change and have the numbers to get the 1/3 it needs to block it?

    From an outsider's limited viewpoint, it would appear that the "constitutional path" is an absolute dead end.
    You obviously know more than me when it comes to numbers . I`ve never read / heard of the 2 / 3 , 1 / 3 thing . Never once heard it quoted or read it . I certainly wouldn`t single out the PP either . Whatever the leader of the PSOE said at first he soon realised that the rest of his party ( Socialist party is particularly strong in the south of Spain from where many Andalusians have moved to and set up home in Catalonia over the last 40 years - these people and their children are fed up with discrimination against them ) is totally in favour of the unity of Spain . Likewise Ciudadanos party and even Podemos . Don`t forget either that independence majority in Barcelona includes support from parties whose first priority is anti capitalism with Catalan independence ( and independence for Valencian region etc ) more an opportunity to make an impact than anything else In Scottish parliament the SNP have support of Scottish Greens who support independence but also have other priorities I suppose but don`t think there are other parties which support independence but also oppose almost everything else . . As for change of constitution , it seems inevitable that it is going to happen but not just cause of situation in Catalonia since situation there in the last decade or more has shown that it is necessary to defend the rights of everyone in Spain and not just those who have built up campaign to oppose Spanish unity or use independence fights to achieve other ideas . I think this will mean that constitutional path is not a dead end but will be more difficult than if things had been done in a more democratic way by independence seekers .

  26. #325
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    I haven`t added to this thread for a week for a few reasons one being that I think whole issue is far too important to be treated like a student union debate . Millions of Spaniards of all political persuasions have worked tirelessly to make Spain a modern, democratic nation in the last 40 odd years . Many of them have parents or grandparents who were victims of Franco regime (or try to forget that their ancestors supported Franco). Catalan president is a good example - his maternal grandfather was forced to leave Spain cause of Francoist oppression while his paternal grandfather also left Spain then returned (in this case to Andalusia) because he fought for Franco`s forces but escaped from his republican enemies . You seem to know a lot about Spanish society in the 21st century thus you feel confident enough to ask if I or anyone else who lives in Spain feels happy about the presence of some " fascists " in a demonstration - would you ask the same of a German joining a demonstration against independence for Bavaria or any other part of Germany if a couple of hundred idiots used occasion to make their presence felt ? Ironically too the term " fascism " has been used more in recent years to refer to Catalan independence supporters who have managed to impose their ideas in schools and other places in Catalonia . I`ve already said I believe all Catalans should have the right to decide if they want to remain part of Spain and the EU but that decision must be made in a legal vote and once there are guarantees that such a vote is possible .
    Incidentally , re your comments about transportation to demonstration on 8th October and march on 1st October ( what march - were people not trying to vote that day ? ) do you really believe any statistics given ?
    Thanks for that.

    I was asking a few Spaniards last night in the pub, we had a cordial discussion on the subject. I also have friends in Bilbao who are looking at the situation in Catalonia with new vigour.

    You've continually mentioned the education system, and how it's being used in Catalonia, is it suppressing the masses? or is it educating them of their past, and a possible new future?

    I think we can all agree that the boot boys were, and are still out in full force in Catalonia, it's just which side you think they're on.

    Here's a piece by on the situation for your perusal giving an alternative view. http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/10/11/slash-and-burn/

    I noticed that El pais has sacked John Carlin for writing a piece, criticising the Spanish government. Nice paper.

    When all is said and done, I just wonder how the Catalan government, who've asked the Spanish gov, on many occasions for a binding referendum, are supposed to move forward.

    I'm not sure anyone can take, as true, the stats offered by any side at the moment, considering the pilfering of ballot papers/boxes and the like.

  27. #326
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Thanks for that.

    I was asking a few Spaniards last night in the pub, we had a cordial discussion on the subject. I also have friends in Bilbao who are looking at the situation in Catalonia with new vigour.

    You've continually mentioned the education system, and how it's being used in Catalonia, is it suppressing the masses? or is it educating them of their past, and a possible new future?

    I think we can all agree that the boot boys were, and are still out in full force in Catalonia, it's just which side you think they're on.

    Here's a piece by on the situation for your perusal giving an alternative view. http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/10/11/slash-and-burn/

    I noticed that El pais has sacked John Carlin for writing a piece, criticising the Spanish government. Nice paper.

    When all is said and done, I just wonder how the Catalan government, who've asked the Spanish gov, on many occasions for a binding referendum, are supposed to move forward.

    I'm not sure anyone can take, as true, the stats offered by any side at the moment, considering the pilfering of ballot papers/boxes and the like.
    First of all great that people can have a cordial conversation about situation . In Spain , thankfully that is the situation too - the mood is sadness and disappointment more than anger except in circles of politicians who always have something to gain / lose .
    Not quite sure what you mean about bootboys being out in force . I`ve seen reports of groups of football yobs fighting each other in Barcelona . Such groups exist in every country in Europe and in no way reflect views of Spaniards .
    I`ve looked quickly at Bella Caledonia thing . I`ll read it again when I have more time but my first impression is that it starts badly with comment about Franco in first sentence then gets progressively worse . I`ve read things from Bella Caledonia before and generally agreed with most of it but think the article shows a complete ignorance of life in Spain including Catalonia . The author would do well to show his article to trade union leaders in Spain especially in Catalonia .Catalan nationalism has historically been supported by the Catalan bourgoise ( Sp) ( Basque nationalism has been left wing ) and even now Puigdemont and Mas etc are having to put up with support of extreme left or anti system to force independence through . I`m a lifelong supporter of Scottish independence and I actually think articles like this will have a negative impact on campaign for Scottish independence .
    I`m not good at links but I`d recommend an article called " En Francoland " by a Spanish journalist called Antonio Muñoz Molina in El Pais ( I haven`t heard about John Carlin being booted out but will look into it ) https://elpais.com/cultura/2017/10/1...74_425961.html about problem Spain has with foreign journalists constantly mentioning Franco ( before and after recent events ) . It`s in Spanish and doesn`t seem to be in English language version of El Pais but I suppose Google translation will help .
    The question of education is very important in my opinion - we all see images of police at demonstrations and other events , likewise with politicians but question of what goes on in schools is not so obvious . There have been numerous reports of comments from teachers in Catalan schools after 1st October events mainly in schools where there are children of police ( aged 5 in some cases ) being told how evil the police etc are - diplomatically we can say this was due to understandable anger on the spur of the moment on one day but there have been numerous other reports too in recent years of bullying of teachers and pupils who don`t support independence ( thousands of teachers have left Catalonia in recent years at a time when jobs have been hard to find in the rest of Spain ) . I recommend looking for You Tube videos of a Spanish politician called Toni Cantó ( he`s actually more famous as an actor than a politician ) talking in Spanish parliament about Catalan independence movement and especially problems in classrooms . It`s especially important as he`s from the region of Valencia and he`s worried the same process could be starting in Valencia and Balearic islands . He`s from the centre / right Ciudadanos party - I`ve no great sympathy with his party but think his comments on this subject are well worth listening to and something Scottish nationalists myself included should always remember .

  28. #327
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    We now have political prisoners in Spain.

    https://t.co/rJUh8zQWS9

  29. #328
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    We now have political prisoners in Spain.

    https://t.co/rJUh8zQWS9
    BBC article mentions that 2 supporters of Catalan independence have been arrested not that they have been arrested for their political views .They have been arrested on the orders of independent judges ( not by the Spanish government ) so not sure how neutral observers from outwith Spain would consider them to be " political prisoners " - there is a lot of clear evidence that they are guily of inciting violence against representatives of Catalan and Spanish judicial systems - judges and police . In many ways they represent the reason for the current problems - people who have a clear political agenda who have been given key jobs in organisations set up for political reasons . Arresting them will probably prove to be a mistake since it`ll give them even more propoganda points outside Spain ( BBC article is one example ) . Millions of Catalns would feel safer and happier if such people didn`t have such important positions in Catalan society . Whatever happens politically in Catalonia ( independence , status quo , still part of Spain but with even more autonomy ) I hope the Catalans can live in peace and with decent leaders cause if two who have been detained today are representative of their future leaders then there`ll be an exodus and not just of Catalans who feel Spanish and want to remain part of Spain .

  30. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    We now have political prisoners in Spain.

    https://t.co/rJUh8zQWS9
    And still the leaders of the EU look the other way.
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  31. #330
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
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    BBC article mentions that 2 supporters of Catalan independence have been arrested not that they have been arrested for their political views .They have been arrested on the orders of independent judges ( not by the Spanish government ) so not sure how neutral observers from outwith Spain would consider them to be " political prisoners " - there is a lot of clear evidence that they are guily of inciting violence against representatives of Catalan and Spanish judicial systems - judges and police . In many ways they represent the reason for the current problems - people who have a clear political agenda who have been given key jobs in organisations set up for political reasons . Arresting them will probably prove to be a mistake since it`ll give them even more propoganda points outside Spain ( BBC article is one example ) . Millions of Catalns would feel safer and happier if such people didn`t have such important positions in Catalan society . Whatever happens politically in Catalonia ( independence , status quo , still part of Spain but with even more autonomy ) I hope the Catalans can live in peace and with decent leaders cause if two who have been detained today are representative of their future leaders then there`ll be an exodus and not just of Catalans who feel Spanish and want to remain part of Spain .
    The ANC is a pressure group set up specifically to campaign for Catalan independence. Having someone whose political views weren't in favour of Catalan independence might be considered somewhat odd?

    The Catalan protests and defence of their referendum have been overwhelmingly peaceful, even when riot police were laying into people with batons. I'm not sure how much more "decent" they could be?

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