hibs.net Messageboard

Page 12 of 12 FirstFirst ... 2101112
Results 331 to 346 of 346

Thread: Catalonia

  1. #331
    As mentioned above, the journalist John Carlin (who has a Spanish mother) had his contract terminated by the Spanish newspaper, El Pais, for this article published in The Times:

    http://www.collectiuemma.cat/article...n-in-the-times

    Catalan independence: arrogance of Madrid explains this chaos


    John Carlin

    October 7 2017, The Times

    Shortly before the King of Spain addressed the nation this week, some of his more rational-minded subjects hoped that maybe, just maybe, he might rise above the petty-mindedness of the Madrid political establishment. He could, they thought, offer a generous vision of how to resolve the crisis caused by the escalating clamour for Catalan independence. No such luck. By the end of his six-minute speech Felipe VI had only made things worse.
    Stiff in his bearing, coldly commanding in his tone, he did not build bridges, he dug trenches. He did not lament the police violence during last Sunday’s simulacrum of a referendum in Catalonia, so damaging to his country’s global image; he denounced the “irresponsibility” and “scorn” of the elected Catalan government and threatened more violence. It was the “responsibility of the legitimate state powers”, the king warned, “to ensure constitutional order”, code for if the Catalan government makes good on its promise to declare unilateral independence, we’ll send in the tanks.

    Speaking on behalf not of the nation but of central government, he did as prime minister Mariano Rajoy has done these last five years: he abdicated responsibility and, oblivious to what he was doing, abdicated his sovereign hold on the hearts of Catalonia’s increasingly embittered 7.5 million people, 80 per cent of whom are in favour of the right to vote on independence.

    Before Sunday several polls indicated that the secessionist vote in Catalonia stood at between 40 and 50 per cent. There can be no question that those numbers have since risen. As a British friend who knows Spanish politics well remarked, minutes after the king’s speech, “that’s another ten points for the independentistas”. Yes. To add to the ten or more they added after the police clubbings of last Sunday.

    I have a more than academic interest in this unfolding slow-motion disaster. My mother is Spanish, from Madrid. I lived 15 years in Catalonia until I moved to London four years ago, but I have always meant to return and applied for a Spanish passport after the Brexit referendum. I love Spain and so am against Catalan independence but I have never loved Spanish politics, especially the authoritarian strain represented by the people in power today and shared by much of the Madrid establishment. I have never forgotten a conversation I had 15 years ago with a man who remains a pillar of that establishment. “I can’t stand the Catalans,” he exclaimed. “They always want to make a deal. They’ve got no principles, for God’s sake! No principles!”

    It is Madrid’s adherence to its blessed principles that has led us into today’s dangerous mess. It also explains what, to the Anglo-Saxon mind, seems to be the inexplicable refusal of Rajoy’s government to try to solve the problem through international mediation, or dialogue of any kind. “Principles” in the Catalan context means the Spanish constitution, which does not allow for a Catalan referendum on sovereignty. One might think that a constitution, being a necessarily fallible human document, would be open to change as circumstances change. Not on the Catalan question; not for Rajoy.

    Miguel de Unamuno, a celebrated Spanish writer of the last century, lamented what he saw as a national political spirit contaminated “by the barracks and the sacristy”. My sense has long been that the intransigent habit of thought exhibited by Spain’s political classes is the inheritance of 500 years of Catholic absolutism. Spanish Catholicism was to Christendom generally what Saudi Islam is to the Muslim world today: the most resistant to outside philosophical, political, cultural or scientific influence. I don’t think it is any accident that there is no translation in Spanish, or in Arabic, for the English word “compromise”. The concept of “I cede a little and you cede a little so we both end up winning” is alien to the Spanish political mind.

    It is why the Spanish empire lost Cuba in 1898 and before that California and the rest of what is now the western United States. It is the chief reason why, on the Catalan question, the centre-right Popular party government of Rajoy and the Madrid establishment have achieved the opposite of what they claim to want: instead of working to preserve the unity of Spain they alienate the Catalan people and fuel the drive for independence.


    Put simply, they are third-rate politicians. Rule one for the intelligent resolution of a dispute like the Catalan one is to know your enemy: put yourself in their shoes, try to understand why they think the way they do and then try to persuade them to come around to your point of view, or at least to meet you halfway. The Struggle for Catalonia, a new book by the New York Times correspondent in Spain, Raphael Minder, ends on just this note. The peoples of Spain will not be reunited, Minder writes, so long as the political establishment in Madrid makes no effort to “understand the feelings expressed by hundreds of thousands on the streets of Barcelona”.

    Catalan nationalist feelings go back at least 300 years. On September 11, 1714, at the end of the Spanish war of succession, Barcelona fell after a long siege to the army of Felipe V, Spain’s first Bourbon king. His namesake might have trodden with a little more tact in his speech this week had he chosen to recall that this glorious defeat, the Catalan Dunkirk, today marks the date of Catalonia’s annual national holiday. It is a commemoration of the suicidal heroism of the city’s defenders but also a reminder of the oppression they suffered under Felipe V. An absolute ruler, he demolished a fifth of the city, closed the Catalan parliament and the universities and banned Catalan as an administrative language.

    An absolute ruler of more recent memory, Francisco Franco, fanned the flames of nationalist grievance by carrying out uncannily similar measures after he assumed absolute power in 1939 following the victory of his fascist forces in the Spanish civil war. Apart from the executions by firing squad of leading Catalan politicians and thousands more, he too suppressed the local language, the chief emblem of Catalan identity. Under Franco’s rule parents were not allowed to give their children Catalan names such as Jordi or Josep. The generalissimo chose to regard Catalan as a dialect, which was as insulting as it was wrong: Catalan is just as much a language in its own right as Spanish, French and Italian.

    A hangover of the Franco era that continues to stir the nationalist pot is the disdain for Catalan among other Spaniards. It is accompanied by a dislike for Catalans generally, whom many choose to regard as snooty and superior when the truth is, I think, that they are merely shy. But nationalism is a sentiment, a simmering resentment towards a neighbour perceived to be abusive. Nationalism is not a plan. Independence is. What we see today is how one has evolved into the other and on a scale never before seen. Many who were once merely heart-sore nationalists are now active campaigners for independence.

    The years 2006, 2010 and 2012 mark the progression. In 2006 the pro-independence vote stood at barely 15 per cent of the population. A decision taken that year gave hope that the number would drop: not only the Catalan parliament in Barcelona, but the national parliament in Madrid, voted in favour of a new statute defining Catalonia as a nation and granting it greater autonomy than it had enjoyed since the death of Franco in 1975. This included giving Catalonia a greater degree of judicial independence.

    Delays in the implementation of the statute gave time for a Spanish nationalist backlash. In 2010 Rajoy’s Popular Party, then in opposition, succumbed to the impulse that sparked the explosion of Catalan independentismo and has led to the present crisis: seeking votes in the rest of Spain, it campaigned against the Catalan statute and took it to the notoriously politicised constitutional court, where it was overruled. The law trumped politics, the precedent that continues to hinder a solution of the problem today.

    In 2012 what was then the centre-right Catalan government nevertheless tried to find an accommodation with Rajoy, who had become prime minister the year before. It sought talks to try to obtain fiscal concessions along the lines of those granted to the Basque country, whose government has a much greater authority over the collection and distribution of tax money. But Rajoy rebuffed them. Add the economic crisis and high unemployment to the outrage among ordinary Catalans at the scornful treatment they felt they had received and the upshot was the biggest protest anyone in Catalonia could remember. On the national holiday of September 11 a million people poured on to the streets of Barcelona.

    What they called for was a legally binding independence referendum and the clamour only grew after the British government agreed to precisely such a vote in Scotland in 2014. But Rajoy’s government would not budge. The law was the law. Pragmatism was for him an unintelligible Greek word. It was as if he took his cue from the advice Franco once gave a friendly newspaper editor: “Do as I do, don’t get involved in politics.”
    part 2 follows ...


  2. Log in to remove the advert

  3. #332
    continues ...

    But the Catalans were doing plenty of politics and in 2015 a rag-tag pro-independence coalition led by Carles Puigdemont took power by a slender margin in the Catalan parliament. Whereupon the rhetoric from both sides became more angry and the political climate more hostile.

    Rajoy’s government and his supporters in the media have portrayed the mop-topped Puigdemont and his radical comrades as irresponsible and infantile but it has been hard to avoid the conclusion that, if so, the supposedly adult politicians in Madrid have descended to the same level. The education minister stoked the flames by stating the government’s intention to españolizar — Spanishify — Catalan children; the foreign minister did the same when he accused the Catalan government of “an uprising” and “a coup d’état”. Felipe González, a former socialist prime minister, trumped them both in an article in El País in which he compared the independence movement to “the German or Italian adventure” of the 1930s.

    Things could have been so different, so easily, starting with the Popular Party restraining the vindictive impulse that drove it to overrule the autonomy statute through the courts. Even if it had not, the massive street protests two years later provided another opportunity. Had Rajoy possessed an ounce of statesmanship, he could have gone to Barcelona, made a conciliatory speech and offered dialogue with the less militant, more pliable Catalan government that was then in power. Applause would have rung out around the hall and the Puigdemont radicals would probably have been done for.

    Had Rajoy an ounce of statesmanship, he could have gone to Barcelona in 2012, made a conciliatory speech and offered dialogue with the less militant Catalan government then in power.

    The dangerous showdown today between Spanish fanatics and Catalan romantics would never have happened if, along with the change in mood music, the upshot of talks had been the granting of a binding referendum such as the one Scotland was given three years ago. Catalans say of themselves that two emotions vie in their hearts, seny and rauxa: common sense and raging passion. They are by ancient Mediterranean tradition a trading nation. When they are not angry, as they are now, they are the most practical people on earth. A proper referendum held a couple of years ago would have yielded in all likelihood a substantial “no” to independence from Spain and, as happened in Quebec, the subject would have been put to bed for a generation at least.

    Instead what we have is the cruel absurdity of the Madrid government acting towards the Catalans like a husband who hates his wife and mistreats her but refuses to let her contemplate leaving him, screaming “She’s mine!”.

    What happens now? Puigdemont has said he will make a unilateral declaration of independence but his delay in doing so indicates an entirely realistic fear of more violent reprisals from Madrid, hence his stated desire for EU mediation, so far refused. Such a declaration would signify scarcely more in substance than the outcome of the unilateral “referendum”: it would be more political theatre. Catalonia is not a small Pacific island, sufficient unto itself. It is part of Spain and part of the European Union. A hard, overnight Catexit is simply not possible. Puigdemont is playing a high-risk game.

    The Spanish government could see he is playing a game, if it chose to, and react proportionately: watch and wait a while and, acknowledging that the Catalan independence clamour has significant numbers behind it, accede to talks. The wife, in this scenario, could respond yet to some blandishments. Rajoy could do what he should have done five years ago and agree to a binding referendum. In the event of a victory for the “yes” vote, order — at least order of the type now found in Brexit Britain — would be restored. Madrid, having given its legal blessing to the referendum, would have to abide through gritted teeth by the result. In the event of a “no” victory, the problem would be solved.

    Fat chance, though, as things stand. More likely is that ominous royal defence of the “constitutional order” by “the legitimate state powers”. Luis de Guindos, the economy minister, showed just how inflexible the Spanish government remains when he said in a television interview on Thursday that Catalan independence was “out of the question” because it was, first, “illegal” and, second, “irrational”: “Catalonia has always been part of Spain”.

    A part of me still clings to the sliver of hope I felt before the king’s speech, that maybe the EU will intervene and knock sense into Spanish heads. But it is more likely that they will do so only after the cracking of more Catalan bones, by which time it may be too late. One death at the hands of the king’s police, one martyr for the Catalan cause, and anything could happen. Rajoy calls Puigdemont a traitor but if the conflict descends into widespread violence, and if Catalonia does eventually achieve independence, history may record that the bigger traitor was Rajoy.

  4. #333
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    8,193
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    continues ...
    A cracking article, where the author has no axe to grind. El Pais will be lacking without the likes of Mr Carlin.

    Alternatively, this young lass makes an impassioned plea to Europeans.

    https://t.co/UBio6bloW8
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 17-10-2017 at 05:39 PM.

  5. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    A cracking article, where the author has no axe to grind. El Pais will be lacking without the likes of Mr Carlin.

    Alternatively, this young lass makes an impassioned plea to Europeans.

    https://t.co/UBio6bloW8
    I take it comments about young lass are tongue in cheek ? The same video ( imitation of Ukranian girl apparently ) is being shown on lots of websites but doubt anyone in Europe at least is taking it seriously . Spanish newspapers which are trying to seem neutral but will tend to not support an uprising against the national government ( can`t imagine that being any different in any country in the world ) are posting the video to ridicule the independence movement . I`m sure 90% of Catalan independence supporters would also admit it`s a total joke though it`s obviously another example of things that were prepared in advance for campaign .
    As for Carlin article , it`s a very long article but doesn`t actually say very much about causes of present situation or more importantly what should be done now . It`s easy to say Spanish governments in last 20 or 30 years should have done this, that or other to prevent present situation ( Carlin seems to focus on last few years with solution being to give in to extremes - he talks of 15% a few years ago and that presumably includes democratic independence supporters - as according to him silent majority would have won votes and stabilised life in Catalonia and rest of Spain ( not sure if he mentions the rest of Spain ) .
    Anyway , the situation is very worrying for all Spanish people especially for Catalans but also for people in the rest of Europe . I can`t see a peaceful ending in Catalonia and I think it`s inevitable that other large European countries in Europe like France and the UK will take note of what`s happened in Spain in the last 20 - 30 years with devolved power in areas like education and the media to limit powers to regional / national governments . Events in Catalonia will certainly have a very negative effect on hopes of Scottish independence .

  6. #335
    Testimonial Due
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,027
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I take it comments about young lass are tongue in cheek ? The same video ( imitation of Ukranian girl apparently ) is being shown on lots of websites but doubt anyone in Europe at least is taking it seriously . Spanish newspapers which are trying to seem neutral but will tend to not support an uprising against the national government ( can`t imagine that being any different in any country in the world ) are posting the video to ridicule the independence movement . I`m sure 90% of Catalan independence supporters would also admit it`s a total joke though it`s obviously another example of things that were prepared in advance for campaign .
    As for Carlin article , it`s a very long article but doesn`t actually say very much about causes of present situation or more importantly what should be done now . It`s easy to say Spanish governments in last 20 or 30 years should have done this, that or other to prevent present situation ( Carlin seems to focus on last few years with solution being to give in to extremes - he talks of 15% a few years ago and that presumably includes democratic independence supporters - as according to him silent majority would have won votes and stabilised life in Catalonia and rest of Spain ( not sure if he mentions the rest of Spain ) .
    Anyway , the situation is very worrying for all Spanish people especially for Catalans but also for people in the rest of Europe . I can`t see a peaceful ending in Catalonia and I think it`s inevitable that other large European countries in Europe like France and the UK will take note of what`s happened in Spain in the last 20 - 30 years with devolved power in areas like education and the media to limit powers to regional / national governments . Events in Catalonia will certainly have a very negative effect on hopes of Scottish independence .
    I find your contributions on this thread reallu useful and interesting, as being back in scotland we are obviiusly quitr removed from the actual situation, even if Barcelona amd Spain are very familiar to many of us.

    I thought the Carlin stuff was useful, i especially found his points about the Spanish attitude /stubborness / obstinacy uaeful, as it does explain why the spanish govt act the way they do.

    I was once at a meeting in brussels and got speakinh to a spanish lady at the same meeting, and we talked aboutt independence as it was arpund the time of the indy ref here. This was a hifhly educated woman, in a good job, but i was shocked by her '*** em' attitude to catalonia, she was very bitter and angry towards them.

    Your point about the scottish indy movement is interesting. I really dont know what to make of the ramifications. On one hand, a nationalism based on language is quite ethnic in chatacter which the SNP will not want to be too closely assoxiated with. Also, Spain and the UK have a mutual interest in not making it too easy for restive regions too easy to join the EU for example.

    But Scotland is different in that we have no recent history of english oppression, no recent civil wars etx, and we are not a region on England, we are part of a union which does give it a slightly different character.

    I really hope it doesnt all end in violence, but given the spanish obstinancy, if i were a catalan independista, im not sure i would see much alternative and it would certainly put pressure on the EU to intercede.

  7. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by IberianHibernian View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I take it comments about young lass are tongue in cheek ? The same video ( imitation of Ukranian girl apparently ) is being shown on lots of websites but doubt anyone in Europe at least is taking it seriously . Spanish newspapers which are trying to seem neutral but will tend to not support an uprising against the national government ( can`t imagine that being any different in any country in the world ) are posting the video to ridicule the independence movement . I`m sure 90% of Catalan independence supporters would also admit it`s a total joke though it`s obviously another example of things that were prepared in advance for campaign .
    As for Carlin article , it`s a very long article but doesn`t actually say very much about causes of present situation or more importantly what should be done now . It`s easy to say Spanish governments in last 20 or 30 years should have done this, that or other to prevent present situation ( Carlin seems to focus on last few years with solution being to give in to extremes - he talks of 15% a few years ago and that presumably includes democratic independence supporters - as according to him silent majority would have won votes and stabilised life in Catalonia and rest of Spain ( not sure if he mentions the rest of Spain ) .
    Anyway , the situation is very worrying for all Spanish people especially for Catalans but also for people in the rest of Europe . I can`t see a peaceful ending in Catalonia and I think it`s inevitable that other large European countries in Europe like France and the UK will take note of what`s happened in Spain in the last 20 - 30 years with devolved power in areas like education and the media to limit powers to regional / national governments . Events in Catalonia will certainly have a very negative effect on hopes of Scottish independence .
    It's always good to introduce a little levity to these discussions. That's a cracker.

  8. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I find your contributions on this thread reallu useful and interesting, as being back in scotland we are obviiusly quitr removed from the actual situation, even if Barcelona amd Spain are very familiar to many of us.

    I thought the Carlin stuff was useful, i especially found his points about the Spanish attitude /stubborness / obstinacy uaeful, as it does explain why the spanish govt act the way they do.

    I was once at a meeting in brussels and got speakinh to a spanish lady at the same meeting, and we talked aboutt independence as it was arpund the time of the indy ref here. This was a hifhly educated woman, in a good job, but i was shocked by her '*** em' attitude to catalonia, she was very bitter and angry towards them.

    Your point about the scottish indy movement is interesting. I really dont know what to make of the ramifications. On one hand, a nationalism based on language is quite ethnic in chatacter which the SNP will not want to be too closely assoxiated with. Also, Spain and the UK have a mutual interest in not making it too easy for restive regions too easy to join the EU for example.

    But Scotland is different in that we have no recent history of english oppression, no recent civil wars etx, and we are not a region on England, we are part of a union which does give it a slightly different character.

    I really hope it doesnt all end in violence, but given the spanish obstinancy, if i were a catalan independista, im not sure i would see much alternative and it would certainly put pressure on the EU to intercede.
    At the risk of being told off for talking about Scotland again ... the UK establishment is nothing if not flexible and pragmatic when it comes to knowing how much ground to cede. I don't think it's an accident that, at least since the restoration (and Jacobite adventures notwithstanding), Britain largely avoided the violent revolutions seen elsewhere across Europe. Not having a written constitution and the English concept of supreme parliamentary sovereignty means they just make things up as they go along and get by on acts of parliament where necessary. I know Scottish nationalists in general like to rail on about Westminster, but the Catalan situation has driven home, to me at least, that we should thank our lucky stars we're dealing with a civilised and mature adversary.

  9. #338
    @hibs.net private member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    7,926
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I find your contributions on this thread reallu useful and interesting, as being back in scotland we are obviiusly quitr removed from the actual situation, even if Barcelona amd Spain are very familiar to many of us.

    I thought the Carlin stuff was useful, i especially found his points about the Spanish attitude /stubborness / obstinacy uaeful, as it does explain why the spanish govt act the way they do.

    I was once at a meeting in brussels and got speakinh to a spanish lady at the same meeting, and we talked aboutt independence as it was arpund the time of the indy ref here. This was a hifhly educated woman, in a good job, but i was shocked by her '*** em' attitude to catalonia, she was very bitter and angry towards them.

    Your point about the scottish indy movement is interesting. I really dont know what to make of the ramifications. On one hand, a nationalism based on language is quite ethnic in chatacter which the SNP will not want to be too closely assoxiated with. Also, Spain and the UK have a mutual interest in not making it too easy for restive regions too easy to join the EU for example.

    But Scotland is different in that we have no recent history of english oppression, no recent civil wars etx, and we are not a region on England, we are part of a union which does give it a slightly different character.

    I really hope it doesnt all end in violence, but given the spanish obstinancy, if i were a catalan independista, im not sure i would see much alternative and it would certainly put pressure on the EU to intercede.
    The EU will stand behind Spain long and hard on this one...just like it's kept the people of Greece in a decade of severe austerity. Anything but the cuddly 'for the people' institution that it is painted by some in the UK

  10. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The EU will stand behind Spain long and hard on this one...just like it's kept the people of Greece in a decade of severe austerity. Anything but the cuddly 'for the people' institution that it is painted by some in the UK
    That's a tricky one to judge. In the short term, for sure, but longer term who knows? They initially stood behind Yugoslavia but caved to recognising Slovenia and Croatia fairly quickly. Kosovo has had a harder road and is probably a closer example given it's status within Serbia and Serbia being a democracy. Kosovo is officially recognised by 23/28 EU states and is officially a "potential candidate" for accession.

    Then again, Spain is an EU member and Serbia isn't, which will probably harden EU attitudes.

    I think in the end it comes down to the Catalans themselves. If support for independence is sustained they will probably get there, if it wilts they won't.

  11. #340
    @hibs.net private member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    7,926
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's a tricky one to judge. In the short term, for sure, but longer term who knows? They initially stood behind Yugoslavia but caved to recognising Slovenia and Croatia fairly quickly. Kosovo has had a harder road and is probably a closer example given it's status within Serbia and Serbia being a democracy. Kosovo is officially recognised by 23/28 EU states and is officially a "potential candidate" for accession.

    Then again, Spain is an EU member and Serbia isn't, which will probably harden EU attitudes.

    I think in the end it comes down to the Catalans themselves. If support for independence is sustained they will probably get there, if it wilts they won't.
    Yeah I suppose each situation is different and I'm tempted to think that their attitude will very much depend if a country is a member or not.

    As for your last paragraph, I agree completely and maybe that's the point, they can whistle for any support from the EU in advancing their cause.

  12. #341
    Testimonial Due
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,027
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The EU will stand behind Spain long and hard on this one...just like it's kept the people of Greece in a decade of severe austerity. Anything but the cuddly 'for the people' institution that it is painted by some in the UK
    I get that and agree, but it would be hard for them to do so if violence was erupting on the streets.

    It would furthet reinforce the perception of the EU as 'economic giant, political pygmy'

  13. #342
    Testimonial Due
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,027
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    At the risk of being told off for talking about Scotland again ... the UK establishment is nothing if not flexible and pragmatic when it comes to knowing how much ground to cede. I don't think it's an accident that, at least since the restoration (and Jacobite adventures notwithstanding), Britain largely avoided the violent revolutions seen elsewhere across Europe. Not having a written constitution and the English concept of supreme parliamentary sovereignty means they just make things up as they go along and get by on acts of parliament where necessary. I know Scottish nationalists in general like to rail on about Westminster, but the Catalan situation has driven home, to me at least, that we should thank our lucky stars we're dealing with a civilised and mature adversary.
    Yeah thats a good point. And maybe reflects the fact the success Scots have had within the union historically.

  14. #343
    Testimonial Due
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,027
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's a tricky one to judge. In the short term, for sure, but longer term who knows? They initially stood behind Yugoslavia but caved to recognising Slovenia and Croatia fairly quickly. Kosovo has had a harder road and is probably a closer example given it's status within Serbia and Serbia being a democracy. Kosovo is officially recognised by 23/28 EU states and is officially a "potential candidate" for accession.

    Then again, Spain is an EU member and Serbia isn't, which will probably harden EU attitudes.

    I think in the end it comes down to the Catalans themselves. If support for independence is sustained they will probably get there, if it wilts they won't.
    Also Kosovo is very muddy - it was afaik always part of serbia, and was supplanted by settlers, possibly more like NI. I dont think it was ever its own country, kingdom etc

    Ir was also the site of one of the serbs most historic battles against the ottomans, and so it is easy to ser why they are a bit sensitive over it.

  15. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    A cracking article, where the author has no axe to grind. El Pais will be lacking without the likes of Mr Carlin.

    Alternatively, this young lass makes an impassioned plea to Europeans.

    https://t.co/UBio6bloW8
    Spain responds ...

    https://twitter.com/poloniatv3/status/921109877879136256

  16. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    At the risk of being told off for talking about Scotland again ... the UK establishment is nothing if not flexible and pragmatic when it comes to knowing how much ground to cede. I don't think it's an accident that, at least since the restoration (and Jacobite adventures notwithstanding), Britain largely avoided the violent revolutions seen elsewhere across Europe. Not having a written constitution and the English concept of supreme parliamentary sovereignty means they just make things up as they go along and get by on acts of parliament where necessary. I know Scottish nationalists in general like to rail on about Westminster, but the Catalan situation has driven home, to me at least, that we should thank our lucky stars we're dealing with a civilised and mature adversary.
    I agree with you here and of course the fact that 2014 referendum even took place is often given as an example of how tolerant and democratic Britain is compared with other European countries ( independence referendums blocked in Spain and independence parties banned from general elections in France , Germany and Portugal for example ) but we`ll never know what would have happened if Yes vote had won ? Suggesting Spain is not a " civilised democracy " is I think unfair and inaccurate but seeing stuff in foreign press now and a long time ago it does not surprise me .

  17. #346
    @hibs.net private member
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Edinburgh
    Posts
    7,926

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
hibs.net ©2012 All Rights Reserved