What Can The Fans Do?

**~~High-On-Hibs~~** · 13-09-2017 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Andy74

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I think your response illustrates why this won't happen.

A focused review of whether current rules and governance arrangements might be of some use but the waters are too muddied with expectations like yours above. Everyone seems to have a pretty different idea on what this is about.

My expectations are that a new club is treated like a new club, who can't pick and choose their ties with a previous club. Why is that too much to expect within the confines of the law?

**~~High-On-Hibs~~** · 13-09-2017 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by lgnsh_070362

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There's a great deal of truth in this. The governing bodies and a number of clubs took this viewpoint at the time which was the pragmatic one. I'm not saying it was the morally correct one as it wasn't, however they had a dilemma and a decision to make and chose what they thought to be the wiser one.

Putting money before all else isn't the sign of wisdom. It's the sign of a broken system, where all rules and laws can be bent and all morals tossed aside for dirty money.

**heretoday** · 13-09-2017 10:12 AM

Everyone knows Rangers are a bunch of crooks and they've been well hammered these last few years.

Let's get on with the football.

***lapsedhibee*** · 13-09-2017 10:14 AM

Originally Posted by heretoday

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Everyone knows Rangers are a bunch of crooks and they've been well hammered these last few years.

Let's get on with the football.

Do you mean punished by their relegation?

**JeMeSouviens** · 13-09-2017 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by heretoday

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Everyone knows Rangers are a bunch of crooks and they've been well hammered these last few years.

Let's get on with the football.

So if Dave "glib and shameless liar" King & co are up to anything crooked now and the SFA know all about it but are turning a blind eye, because ... ARMAGEDDON ... that's ok?

Let's just get on with the football?

**Thecat23** · 13-09-2017 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by heretoday

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Everyone knows Rangers are a bunch of crooks and they've been well hammered these last few years.

Let's get on with the football.

No they haven't, they are a new team who had rules bent to allow them back into the league. Just pushing aside teams like Spartans etc who have every right to be allowed a vote in.

Folk who think The Rangers have been punished seriously need to have a word with themselves. They have had everything chucked at them to help them.

**Betty Boop** · 13-09-2017 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by WhileTheChief..

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Saturdays game won't be affected by this at all.

The wailing and gnashing of teeth is pretty much a social media thing. I've Yet to hear it mentioned once in 'real' life.

I just don't think that you have will support for any plans within the Hibs support generally.

***lucky*** · 13-09-2017 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Thecat23

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No they haven't, they are a new team who had rules bent to allow them back into the league. Just pushing aside teams like Spartans etc who have every right to be allowed a vote in.

Folk who think The Rangers have been punished seriously need to have a word with themselves. They have had everything chucked at them to help them.

Are you suggesting Spartans should have been in the league before the new Rangers? Every club in Scotland has benefited with them starting in the bottom league. Spartans maybe a well run club but generally would add little to the professional leagues.

***lapsedhibee*** · 13-09-2017 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by lucky

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Are you suggesting Spartans should have been in the league before the new Rangers? Every club in Scotland has benefited with them starting in the bottom league. Spartans maybe a well run club but generally would add little to the professional leagues.

I would put it slightly differently. Every club in Scotland has suffered from the Old and New Thes having had a different set of rules, or no rules at all, applied to them for (at least) the last couple of decades.

**~~Allez Hibs~~** · 13-09-2017 10:29 AM

The fans should stand up for what's right for future generations.

**Thecat23** · 13-09-2017 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by lucky

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Are you suggesting Spartans should have been in the league before the new Rangers? Every club in Scotland has benefited with them starting in the bottom league. Spartans maybe a well run club but generally would add little to the professional leagues.

No it should have been put down to a vote, I don't care how big The Rangers are they had no right to walk into the league. The attitude you have against small clubs is very condescending! Just because they are small they shouldn't be treated the same?

**~~High-On-Hibs~~** · 13-09-2017 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by lucky

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Are you suggesting Spartans should have been in the league before the new Rangers? Every club in Scotland has benefited with them starting in the bottom league. Spartans maybe a well run club but generally would add little to the professional leagues.

What did Spartans do wrong not to get into the league? They did everything that was required at the time to earn their place there and were meekly swept aside to make room for a new club. For someone who claims to be all for equality, you don't half seem to have a vendetta against the little guy.

***Bostonhibby*** · 13-09-2017 10:46 AM

Originally Posted by heretoday

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Everyone knows Rangers are a bunch of crooks and they've been well hammered these last few years.

Let's get on with the football.

They got a £250k fine as a consequence of some part of their conduct but that's all I recall from the authorities and it wasn't paid unless they did it relatively recently.

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***Keith_M*** · 13-09-2017 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by lucky

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Are you suggesting Spartans should have been in the league before the new Rangers? Every club in Scotland has benefited with them starting in the bottom league. Spartans maybe a well run club but generally would add little to the professional leagues.

I think that would actually have helped clean up Scottish Football, with the removal of the largest sectarian organisation in Scotland.

My opinion is that Celtc would also have been weakened* in the long run without their ugly sisters, so it would have been for the good of Scottish Football as a whole

* If you don't believe me, check out the attendances at Celtc Park between 2012-2016, compared to what they were in the ten previous seasons and since. I'm not talking about tickets, sold, but how many actually turned up. They have a symbiotic relationship and suffer without each other.

***oldbutdim*** · 13-09-2017 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Bostonhibby

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They got a £250k fine as a consequence of some part of their conduct but that's all I recall from the authorities and it wasn't paid unless they did it relatively recently.

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They appealed it but eventually coughed up a couple of years back I think.

**JeMeSouviens** · 13-09-2017 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by Bostonhibby

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They got a £250k fine as a consequence of some part of their conduct but that's all I recall from the authorities and it wasn't paid unless they did it relatively recently.

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The Old Huns have had 2 rounds of punishment:

- Craig Whyte era for not paying any tax and ending up in admin - fined £160K and given a 12 month signing ban (later moved so it only covered periods they couldn't sign anyone in.

)
- EBT era for "imperfectly registering" players but not to "sporting advantage".

- fined £250K

Sevco agreed to "inherit" these punishments as part of the 5 way agreement and afaik they've paid up.

**SunshineOnLeith** · 13-09-2017 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs

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What did Spartans do wrong not to get into the league? They did everything that was required at the time to earn their place there and were meekly swept aside to make room for a new club. For someone who claims to be all for equality, you don't half seem to have a vendetta against the little guy.

Spartans didn't apply for the vacant spot. If they had, they could have forced a vote

**JIm** · 13-09-2017 11:24 AM

Getting back to the original point could this not be taken on by the Hibernian Supporters Association at Sunnyside?

Canvas all their members and release a statement? Alternatively to this they work with all known supporters branches and canvas opinions as well as a quick online for those not members of branches? Surely that would allow for more comprehensive feedback?

***Bostonhibby*** · 13-09-2017 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by oldbutdim

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They appealed it but eventually coughed up a couple of years back I think.

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***Bostonhibby*** · 13-09-2017 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens

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The Old Huns have had 2 rounds of punishment:

- Craig Whyte era for not paying any tax and ending up in admin - fined £160K and given a 12 month signing ban (later moved so it only covered periods they couldn't sign anyone in.

)
- EBT era for "imperfectly registering" players but not to "sporting advantage".

- fined £250K

Sevco agreed to "inherit" these punishments as part of the 5 way agreement and afaik they've paid up.

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**YanYansen** · 13-09-2017 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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I want complete transparency on who knew what and when. I want to know why Andrew Dickson is still employed by the SFA in a compliance role after administering the illegal dual contract scheme. I want to know why Campbell Ogilvie was allowed to remain as president of the SFA long after it was discovered that he helped set up the dual contract scheme. I want to know why Greame Souness received an EBT 10 years after leaving Rangers about the same time he bought Tugay from them using £1.3m of Blackburn's money. I want to know why Walter Smith was given an EBT while manager of Everton?
Why did the SFA let the SPFL set up the LNS enquiry when the SFA is in charge of player registrations? Why has there not been a single disciplinary procedure from the SFA despite Rangers playing these players in the Scottish cup?
The SFA were informed after the Boumsong raid that there was a problem with Rangers contracts and HMRC asked for all SFA copies to be sent to them. Why did they not investigate then?
I could go on and on and on. There are hundreds of questions needing answered.
As far as I'm concerned I would take an enquiry that promised no title stripping as long as there was absolute full disclosure of everything that went on. Kind of like a plea bargain. You can keep the titles but we want absolutely every bit of information on every individual involved.
From that it's just possible that we can put in place a system of governance that everyone in Scottish football can trust. Without full disclosure, we have no chance.

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Superbly put, and sums up my position an aw.

This thing really is about more than The Huns now (much as they would struggle to comprehend that). This is about the Scottish game's integrity as a whole, and that concerns everyone, whatever team you support.

If the people who make the rules that we have to abide by feel that they can ignore them themselves, then this is a fundamental problem.

And I think you'd have to be thick as mince not to see quite clearly that at best governing bods have been turning a blind eye to favour a club that feels its interests are more important than anyone else's, or at worst engaging in blatant institutional bias because they also feel that the Hun should be treated differently to say, Livi, or Spartans.Witness athletics: all sport is built on a trust - in fact, an assumption - of fair play. If that foundation begins to be questioned, then it will never just "go away", which is why all the "moving on" crap is so much hot air.

**~~puff the dragon~~** · 13-09-2017 11:36 AM

It's time to move on and stop wasting energy on this - I know the titles are tained, you know the titles are tainted and they know the titles are tainted.

What the board have advised is that anything further will likely lead to wasted effort, resource and time in a legal game of ping pong to get to the same conclusion.

If Hibs were robbed of a title or cup due to the EBT's then I might have more interest in pursuing an official investigation, but the reality is the only team that would benefit from any title stripping would be Celtic and I despise them as much as Rangers so who cares about them.

Let them keep ther tainted titles - we all know the truth (and so do they).

**Ozyhibby** · 13-09-2017 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by puff the dragon

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It's time to move on and stop wasting energy on this - I know the titles are tained, you know the titles are tainted and they know the titles are tainted.

What the board have advised is that anything further will likely lead to wasted effort, resource and time in a legal game of ping pong to get to the same conclusion.

If Hibs were robbed of a title or cup due to the EBT's then I might have more interest in pursuing an official investigation, but the reality is the only team that would benefit from any title stripping would be Celtic and I despise them as much as Rangers so who cares about them.

Let them keep ther tainted titles - we all know the truth (and so do they).

And when it happens again? Just move on then as well?

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**lyonhibs** · 13-09-2017 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs

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My expectations are that a new club is treated like a new club, who can't pick and choose their ties with a previous club. Why is that too much to expect within the confines of the law?

How would "the law" implement that on an ongoing basis?? Would you expect Rangers fans to be hauled up before the beaks for misrepresentation if they ever mentioned that "Going for 55" pish??

What law is to be activated against Newco to prevent them picking and choosing their ties with the old club?

It seems decidedly vague to me. Whatever happens or not, you can bet no judgement will stop Der Hun and their fanbase being as backwards and odious as ever they were so that's why I'm not too bothered about more talking shop legal stuff.

**JIm** · 13-09-2017 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by puff the dragon

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It's time to move on and stop wasting energy on this - I know the titles are tained, you know the titles are tainted and they know the titles are tainted.

What the board have advised is that anything further will likely lead to wasted effort, resource and time in a legal game of ping pong to get to the same conclusion.

If Hibs were robbed of a title or cup due to the EBT's then I might have more interest in pursuing an official investigation, but the reality is the only team that would benefit from any title stripping would be Celtic and I despise them as much as Rangers so who cares about them.

Let them keep ther tainted titles - we all know the truth (and so do they).

I could be wrong but I think whilst there is an appetite from some fans to see titles stripped there is no real expectation that this is going to happen by the majority. The real issue is around governance and integrity. That is why people are so disgusted by Hibs statement and the idea that we just sweep it aside and move on. As has been said what happens if something similar arises in the Scottish football in future? Just forget it and move on?

**JeMeSouviens** · 13-09-2017 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by lyonhibs

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How would "the law" implement that on an ongoing basis?? Would you expect Rangers fans to be hauled up before the beaks for misrepresentation if they ever mentioned that "Going for 55" pish??

What law is to be activated against Newco to prevent them picking and choosing their ties with the old club?

It seems decidedly vague to me. Whatever happens or not, you can bet no judgement will stop Der Hun and their fanbase being as backwards and odious as ever they were so that's why I'm not too bothered about more talking shop legal stuff.

I think that's a fair point and playing Devil's Avocado for a minute, it does strike me that about the only thing sustaining the New Huns as they get humiliated from pillar to post is their victim mentality and circle the wagons defiance.

But, call me a naive idealist, I just can't get past the idea that cheats shouldn't be declared winners.

**MyJo** · 13-09-2017 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Ozyhibby

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And when it happens again? Just move on then as well?

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New rules have been introduced to prevent it from happening again:

https://www.sfm.scot/sfa.pdf - section 3

**Badger0762** · 13-09-2017 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by lapsedhibee

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Continuing to punish? When have Sevco ever been punished?

Understand and know what you mean, don't get me wrong, hate them with a passion. However, technically, they are a new club, liquidated, kicked into the lowest professional division taking another defunct teams place.
SFA are a major issue for me and the "weed" will simply grow back without pulling the root. Just my opinion, but a major part of that root is in the SFA.

**JeMeSouviens** · 13-09-2017 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by JIm

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I could be wrong but I think whilst there is an appetite from some fans to see titles stripped there is no real expectation that this is going to happen by the majority. The real issue is around governance and integrity. That is why people are so disgusted by Hibs statement and the idea that we just sweep it aside and move on. As has been said what happens if something similar arises in the Scottish football in future? Just forget it and move on?

Yes, the 2 things are separate goals. The competitions should be voided because that's just natural justice but it is also vital that we have some hope of a level playing field for the future. Sweep, sweep just pervades the mentality that rules can be bent to whatever suits short term finances.