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  1. #241
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Good luck in winning over young voters who want to study, live and work in Europe. There's only one show in town for them and it isn't the Tory/Labour Brexit alliance.
    Quote Originally Posted by stoneyburn hibs View Post
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    But they might be rattled into voting Labour ��
    I don’t think anybody would ever suggest that the more entrenched SNP supporters will be voting Labour anytime soon. But given how many SNP voters switched directly to the Tories in their North East heartlands at the last election who really knows?
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  3. #242
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Surely the SNP arenít still putting all their eggs in to the Brexit basket? It hasnít given anything like the sort of lift in support for Independence they expected. (And I had hoped for.)
    Putting any opinions of my own aside and looking at it neutrally, I would suggest the following:

    The aim of any party is to win power to implement desired policy. In order to do that they require three things - objective, strategy and tactics.

    The SNP have an objective of sorts, in so much as independence is an objective, and that's perfectly valid (though it begs the question about after that where do they stand?).

    They certainly have shown astuteness on tactics a lot of the time, but the gap appears to sit with strategy.

    I think that they are good at marshalling the troops and good at the reactive stuff, but there isn't a coherent sense of strategy in key areas like health and education. So much 'responsibility' is devolved to local authorities and partnerships in the name of localism but localities are then constrained in decision-making, whether it's by several years of council tax freeze or being locked into targets that don't necessarily demonstrate genuine success when met.

    They are crying out for a genuine strategic approach and I wonder whether the lack of that reflects internal divisions at a senior level.
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  4. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Good luck in winning over young voters who want to study, live and work in Europe. There's only one show in town for them and it isn't the Tory/Labour Brexit alliance.
    A bit like the Indy vote some folk seem to find it hard to move on.

    Brexit won't stop any of the above from happening, it may not make it as easy as it is currently but if they want to they will still be able to. As it is I honestly doubt this would be overly high on the 'young' agenda anyway. It's kind of obvious that most will plan to do that in Scotland.

  5. #244
    Coaching Staff Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Surely the SNP arenít still putting all their eggs in to the Brexit basket? It hasnít given anything like the sort of lift in support for Independence they expected. (And I had hoped for.)
    To be fair, it hasn't happened yet, so it's true impact (whatever that may be) hasn't been felt.

  6. #245
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    To be fair, it hasn't happened yet, so it's true impact (whatever that may be) hasn't been felt.
    True. But result of the Brexit vote itself was a major political shock which you would have expected to push a lot of waverers in to supporting 'the only show in town.'. It didn't happen.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
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  7. #246
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    True. But result of the Brexit vote itself was a major political shock which you would have expected to push a lot of waverers in to supporting 'the only show in town.'. It didn't happen.
    Once the true horrors of isolationism become reality for Scots who have a fair argument to say that they didn't vote for it sink home, then there will be a backlash against those who brought it about. The Tories who brought all of this upon us and Labour who campaigned to keep us part of the Union that brought this upon us will pay the price.

  8. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Once the true horrors of isolationism become reality for Scots who have a fair argument to say that they didn't vote for it sink home, then there will be a backlash against those who brought it about. The Tories who brought all of this upon us and Labour who campaigned to keep us part of the Union that brought this upon us will pay the price.
    Who is proposing isolationism?

    And the opposite could just easily be as true...when the reality sinks in that we didn't need to be part of the EU to prevent the sky falling down and that actually leaving hasn't impacted most people's day to day lives that greatly then those that so vehemently said it would could face a backlash of their own.

    As it is I see the politics of Scotland (be that Holyrood or Westminster elections) somewhat removed from the Brexit issue...the last election and the failed 'surge' the SNP was banking on for Indy2 probably shows that.

  9. #248
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Who is proposing isolationism?

    And the opposite could just easily be as true...when the reality sinks in that we didn't need to be part of the EU to prevent the sky falling down and that actually leaving hasn't impacted most people's day to day lives that greatly then those that so vehemently said it would could face a backlash of their own.

    As it is I see the politics of Scotland (be that Holyrood or Westminster elections) somewhat removed from the Brexit issue...the last election and the failed 'surge' the SNP was banking on for Indy2 probably shows that.
    Brexit hasn't happened yet. Asking folk what they think of Brexit is like asking your kids in July if they're happy with this years Christmas presents. You need to be completely delusional to still believe that Brexit can be a positive thing for the people of Scotland. Anyone who was alive before we joined the EU will still remember the massive gulf in wealth between Scotland and the rest of the U.K. before we joined. The EU has been extremely beneficial to Scotland, growing up in Scotland in the 60's we had a standard of living below that of the former DDR and our towns and cities were similarly bleak.

  10. #249
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Read these and weep!

    £72 BILLION: The cost of Brexit is already turning Britain into a second-rung nation

    http://uk.businessinsider.com/the-ec...in-gdp-2017-11

    Brexit vote has cost each household more than £600 a year, says NIESR

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics...conomic-growth

    Cost of Brexit to Trade at least £850 per household per year

    http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2016/0...hold-per-year/
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  11. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Brexit hasn't happened yet. Asking folk what they think of Brexit is like asking your kids in July if they're happy with this years Christmas presents. You need to be completely delusional to still believe that Brexit can be a positive thing for the people of Scotland. Anyone who was alive before we joined the EU will still remember the massive gulf in wealth between Scotland and the rest of the U.K. before we joined. The EU has been extremely beneficial to Scotland, growing up in Scotland in the 60's we had a standard of living below that of the former DDR and our towns and cities were similarly bleak.
    So it's not happened yet but you have decided that anyone who believes something that hasn't happened might not be the disaster you think it will be is delusional?

    Standards of living have increased massively across the globe since the 60's...attributing Scotlands increase as a direct result of membership of the EU is about a big a generalisation you can ever have. You could just as easily say that it was a direct result of being in he Union and the fiscal transfers that has entailed over that period.

    And that's before you even factor in what the EU is now compared to the set up that we first joined.

    You paint a very black and white picture based on your beliefs which is fair enough but maybe it's also delusional to think that you fully understand all the implications of Brexit or can accurately assess the impact of leaving when the terms and conditions Britain will interact with the EU afterwards haven't even been agreed yet.

    As it is this is probably the wrong thread to rehash Brexit arguments. As I said I don't see it as a big driver in voting intentions in Scotland currently and any semblance of an orderly exit could easily see that remaining to be the case.

    It's much more interesting that we finally have a political spectrum again. Labour moving to the left, the Tories staying softish right and the SNP astride the middle, trying as they do (and have done quite successfully to date) to be all things to all people.

    Polarisation seems to have been the order of the day in political and economic debate in the country over the last while so I'm curious to see how the SNP will fare now that there is clear alternatives on both sides...they might find that it's not so easy to maintain their unique mix of policies and it could be argued that they might start to leak even more votes both ways.

  12. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    True. But result of the Brexit vote itself was a major political shock which you would have expected to push a lot of waverers in to supporting 'the only show in town.'. It didn't happen.
    The polling suggests it pushed about 10% of Nos to Yes, but around the same number went the other way.

  13. #252
    @hibs.net private member --------'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Brexit hasn't happened yet. Asking folk what they think of Brexit is like asking your kids in July if they're happy with this years Christmas presents. You need to be completely delusional to still believe that Brexit can be a positive thing for the people of Scotland. Anyone who was alive before we joined the EU will still remember the massive gulf in wealth between Scotland and the rest of the U.K. before we joined. The EU has been extremely beneficial to Scotland, growing up in Scotland in the 60's we had a standard of living below that of the former DDR and our towns and cities were similarly bleak.


  14. #253
    @hibs.net proletariat member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    So it's not happened yet but you have decided that anyone who believes something that hasn't happened might not be the disaster you think it will be is delusional?

    Standards of living have increased massively across the globe since the 60's...attributing Scotlands increase as a direct result of membership of the EU is about a big a generalisation you can ever have. You could just as easily say that it was a direct result of being in he Union and the fiscal transfers that has entailed over that period.

    And that's before you even factor in what the EU is now compared to the set up that we first joined.

    You paint a very black and white picture based on your beliefs which is fair enough but maybe it's also delusional to think that you fully understand all the implications of Brexit or can accurately assess the impact of leaving when the terms and conditions Britain will interact with the EU afterwards haven't even been agreed yet.

    As it is this is probably the wrong thread to rehash Brexit arguments. As I said I don't see it as a big driver in voting intentions in Scotland currently and any semblance of an orderly exit could easily see that remaining to be the case.

    It's much more interesting that we finally have a political spectrum again. Labour moving to the left, the Tories staying softish right and the SNP astride the middle, trying as they do (and have done quite successfully to date) to be all things to all people.

    Polarisation seems to have been the order of the day in political and economic debate in the country over the last while so I'm curious to see how the SNP will fare now that there is clear alternatives on both sides...they might find that it's not so easy to maintain their unique mix of policies and it could be argued that they might start to leak even more votes both ways.
    Good post. While Brexit and the Union are important issues, any party who spearheads their campaign with them could be in for a shock.
    I know itís all intertwined but things like housing, the NHS, nationalisation etc...are the issues that are with people every day at the coal face while others might seem like processes that wonít have an immediate effect on the way they live.

  15. #254
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    So it's not happened yet but you have decided that anyone who believes something that hasn't happened might not be the disaster you think it will be is delusional?

    Standards of living have increased massively across the globe since the 60's...attributing Scotlands increase as a direct result of membership of the EU is about a big a generalisation you can ever have. You could just as easily say that it was a direct result of being in he Union and the fiscal transfers that has entailed over that period.

    And that's before you even factor in what the EU is now compared to the set up that we first joined.

    You paint a very black and white picture based on your beliefs which is fair enough but maybe it's also delusional to think that you fully understand all the implications of Brexit or can accurately assess the impact of leaving when the terms and conditions Britain will interact with the EU afterwards haven't even been agreed yet.

    As it is this is probably the wrong thread to rehash Brexit arguments. As I said I don't see it as a big driver in voting intentions in Scotland currently and any semblance of an orderly exit could easily see that remaining to be the case.

    It's much more interesting that we finally have a political spectrum again. Labour moving to the left, the Tories staying softish right and the SNP astride the middle, trying as they do (and have done quite successfully to date) to be all things to all people.

    Polarisation seems to have been the order of the day in political and economic debate in the country over the last while so I'm curious to see how the SNP will fare now that there is clear alternatives on both sides...they might find that it's not so easy to maintain their unique mix of policies and it could be argued that they might start to leak even more votes both ways.

    All the leaking coming out of the talks suggest only 3 options are on offer:

    - Norway, ie. stay in single market, accept freedom of movement
    - Canada, much more limited free trade deal
    - Off the cliff with no deal

    The EU appears to have neither the will nor the desire to negotiate anything bespoke between the first 2, it's one or the other.

  16. #255
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    All the leaking coming out of the talks suggest only 3 options are on offer:

    - Norway, ie. stay in single market, accept freedom of movement
    - Canada, much more limited free trade deal
    - Off the cliff with no deal

    The EU appears to have neither the will nor the desire to negotiate anything bespoke between the first 2, it's one or the other.
    As it has been from the very beginning. Nothing has changed and nothing will change.

  17. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    As it has been from the very beginning. Nothing has changed and nothing will change.
    The UK has caved on the talks timetable, caved on status of citizens, caved on the divorce bill. Next up is the Irish border ... It is quite incredible how much more united 27 countries have been than 1 cabinet.

    I'm still hoping for de facto permanent transition ...

  18. #257
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    So it's not happened yet but you have decided that anyone who believes something that hasn't happened might not be the disaster you think it will be is delusional?

    Standards of living have increased massively across the globe since the 60's...attributing Scotlands increase as a direct result of membership of the EU is about a big a generalisation you can ever have. You could just as easily say that it was a direct result of being in he Union and the fiscal transfers that has entailed over that period.

    And that's before you even factor in what the EU is now compared to the set up that we first joined.

    You paint a very black and white picture based on your beliefs which is fair enough but maybe it's also delusional to think that you fully understand all the implications of Brexit or can accurately assess the impact of leaving when the terms and conditions Britain will interact with the EU afterwards haven't even been agreed yet.

    As it is this is probably the wrong thread to rehash Brexit arguments. As I said I don't see it as a big driver in voting intentions in Scotland currently and any semblance of an orderly exit could easily see that remaining to be the case.

    It's much more interesting that we finally have a political spectrum again. Labour moving to the left, the Tories staying softish right and the SNP astride the middle, trying as they do (and have done quite successfully to date) to be all things to all people.

    Polarisation seems to have been the order of the day in political and economic debate in the country over the last while so I'm curious to see how the SNP will fare now that there is clear alternatives on both sides...they might find that it's not so easy to maintain their unique mix of policies and it could be argued that they might start to leak even more votes both ways.
    Nice attempt to brush off the relevance of leaving the EU in post Brexit Scotland but we both know it is of utmost relevance to the majority of Scots and therefore doesn't wash. The independence question will not go away suddenly just because Labour has suddenly remembered it is a left wing party after years of trying to imitate the Tories. Trade and free movement within Europe has been fundamental in Scotland's rise in living standards with the EU investing funds into areas that Westminster have neglected for centuries.

    The UK Brexit negotiations team are delusional if they think that they can in any way have their cake and eat it. Once the button gets pressed we will be living outside the EU trading zone and the benefits that that brings. The illusion that we will still be able to keep an open border in Ireland is completely delusional and will all but kill the Good Friday Agreement and open up old sectarian wounds and all the political fallout from that.

    Post-war Britain was competing with individual European countries in the market and could barely hold it's head above water, joining the EU was a matter of survival and has served the UK well but nowhere more than in Scotland. We now don't just have to compete with individual countries in our neighbourhood but the single largest trading block in The world. The political price in Scotland will be paid by those who have instigated and supported Brexit and to ignore the repercussions of our reluctant exit is delusional. So yes, believing Brexit can possibly be advantageous for Scotland is delusional.
    Last edited by Hibrandenburg; 29-11-2017 at 12:15 PM.

  19. #258
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The UK has caved on the talks timetable, caved on status of citizens, caved on the divorce bill. Next up is the Irish border ... It is quite incredible how much more united 27 countries have been than 1 cabinet.

    I'm still hoping for de facto permanent transition ...
    Here is the solution to Britain understanding the issues of Ireland

    http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/201...ontent=Article
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

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