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  1. #1
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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  3. #2
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Whoopee!!!

    Our currentcy is worth ****!

    Didn't put that on the bus, Boris, did you?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Whoopee!!!

    Our currentcy is worth ****!

    Didn't put that on the bus, Boris, did you?
    That bus you refer to promised so much unfortunately like most things politicians say it was only wishful thinking. Once we lose our rights to appeal to the ECHR will the majority who voted for brexit begin to realise they gave up hard won rights for the right wing will be able to rule us with impunity.

  5. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh_070362 View Post
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    That bus you refer to promised so much unfortunately like most things politicians say it was only wishful thinking. Once we lose our rights to appeal to the ECHR will the majority who voted for brexit begin to realise they gave up hard won rights for the right wing will be able to rule us with impunity.
    Gawd how many times do I need to read crap like this?

    Leaving the EU does not turn us into a fascist state.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Gawd how many times do I need to read crap like this?

    Leaving the EU does not turn us into a fascist state.
    People like you just don't get it. Withdrawing from the ECHR which is the principle upholder of individuals human rights across Europe will have a devastating effect. it means the power to appeal to the ECHR is no more for us in the UK. The ECHR is a last resort for us here in the UK to hold our state to account when it abuses our hard won human rights. I have experience in these matters and find it extraordinary that people like you just resorts to calling being extracted from the ECHR court of appeal on human rights as 'crap'. Dearie me.

  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh_070362 View Post
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    People like you just don't get it. Withdrawing from the ECHR which is the principle upholder of individuals human rights across Europe will have a devastating effect. it means the power to appeal to the ECHR is no more for us in the UK. The ECHR is a last resort for us here in the UK to hold our state to account when it abuses our hard won human rights. I have experience in these matters and find it extraordinary that people like you just resorts to calling being extracted from the ECHR court of appeal on human rights as 'crap'. Dearie me.
    No the crap is stating that withdrawing from the ECHR means we will be ruled by the right with impunity.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    No the crap is stating that withdrawing from the ECHR means we will be ruled by the right with impunity.
    I'm basing my comments on real experiences on the subject matter, your stating my comments are 'crap' based on?

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh_070362 View Post
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    I'm basing my comments on real experiences on the subject matter, your stating my comments are 'crap' based on?
    So you have experience in the UK leaving the ECHR and the resultant effect being the breakdown of the independent judiciary and democracy in the U.K?

    Furthermore leaving the ECHR does not remove the UK's obligations under the seven UN human rights treaties it is a signatory to.

    So I am basing my comments on the fact that you cannot possibly know that leaving ECHR will result in 'the right' acting with impunity in the U.K. from that point onwards, that our legal and democratic processes make that scenario highly unlikely, that the UK Supreme Court already only has to take ECHR decisions into account and the UKs obligations under international law on human rights will continue regardless.

    Feel free to provide some irrefutable evidence that leaving ECHR will automatically result in the UK becoming a facist dictatorship and I'll happily reconsider my position.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    So you have experience in the UK leaving the ECHR and the resultant effect being the breakdown of the independent judiciary and democracy in the U.K?

    Furthermore leaving the ECHR does not remove the UK's obligations under the seven UN human rights treaties it is a signatory to.

    So I am basing my comments on the fact that you cannot possibly know that leaving ECHR will result in 'the right' acting with impunity in the U.K. from that point onwards, that our legal and democratic processes make that scenario highly unlikely, that the UK Supreme Court already only has to take ECHR decisions into account and the UKs obligations under international law on human rights will continue regardless.

    Feel free to provide some irrefutable evidence that leaving ECHR will automatically result in the UK becoming a facist dictatorship and I'll happily reconsider my position.
    I will remind you once again what the ECHR actually is. Its a highly unique supra national Court of Appeal on human rights in Strasbourg of which individuals can appeal to in order to hold nation states accountable when human rights fail to be upheld or are abused. The Supreme Court does not welcome meddling in Court of Session business and therefore is not a true appeal court and I know that for a fact. In the event we withdraw from the ECHR citizens of the UK will have lost their unique fundamental rights to appeal to the ECHR. The only purpose of exiting from the ECHR is to prevent us citizens from being able to hold our state accountable by withdrawing our access to the ECHR and it is the right wing who are most eager to exit. It will be a very sad day for the citizens of the UK if the right wing force us out of the ECHR and we will lose our individual rights to appeal against the state.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh_070362 View Post
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    I will remind you once again what the ECHR actually is. Its a highly unique supra national Court of Appeal on human rights in Strasbourg of which individuals can appeal to in order to hold nation states accountable when human rights fail to be upheld or are abused. The Supreme Court does not welcome meddling in Court of Session business and therefore is not a true appeal court and I know that for a fact. In the event we withdraw from the ECHR citizens of the UK will have lost their unique fundamental rights to appeal to the ECHR. The only purpose of exiting from the ECHR is to prevent us citizens from being able to hold our state accountable by withdrawing our access to the ECHR and it is the right wing who are most eager to exit. It will be a very sad day for the citizens of the UK if the right wing force us out of the ECHR and we will lose our individual rights to appeal against the state.

    So no evidence of a facist dictatorship then?

    Or anyone being able to act with impunity?

    Or of Britain not being accountable for its signatory to the UN conventions and by extension the International Court of Justice

    Or the removal of the ability to use UK courts to 'challenge the state'?

    Or indeed the degradation of U.K. Voters ability to remove from office a government it doesn't like?


    I get the fact you don't like the removal of a uk citizens ability to appeal to the ECHR, I'm minded to agree on that but in no way does that automatically equate to what you stated it would.

  12. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    So no evidence of a facist dictatorship then?

    Or anyone being able to act with impunity?

    Or of Britain not being accountable for its signatory to the UN conventions and by extension the International Court of Justice

    Or the removal of the ability to use UK courts to 'challenge the state'?

    Or indeed the degradation of U.K. Voters ability to remove from office a government it doesn't like?


    I get the fact you don't like the removal of a uk citizens ability to appeal to the ECHR, I'm minded to agree on that but in no way does that automatically equate to what you stated it would.
    The only reason they want to erase individuals rights to appeal to the ECHR is to indeed act with impunity.

    Fact - As citizens of the UK would be stripped of the right to appeal to the ECHR they (UK courts) will be able to act with impunity as they will no longer be held to account by a supra national international court.

    It was you who introduced the other irrelevant factors not me. I note your agreement.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh_070362 View Post
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    The only reason they want to erase individuals rights to appeal to the ECHR is to indeed act with impunity.

    Fact - As citizens of the UK would be stripped of the right to appeal to the ECHR they (UK courts) will be able to act with impunity as they will no longer be held to account by a supra national international court.

    It was you who introduced the other irrelevant factors not me. I note your agreement.
    No that is your supposition on why 'they' are looking to remove the ECHR as a legal route.

    Ok so now it's the UK courts acting with impunity not 'the right'....you've just changed your whole point.

    And as I've already pointed out the ECHR does not hold the right of veto over the Supreme Court now...they only need to take the ECHR verdicts 'into account'.

    As for other irrelevant factors...not quite sure you can call the UN conventions irrelevant as ultimately they underpin our human rights in international law. You can't just focus on one element of the current laws and processes that support our human rights and ignore the rest.

  14. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    No that is your supposition on why 'they' are looking to remove the ECHR as a legal route.

    Ok so now it's the UK courts acting with impunity not 'the right'....you've just changed your whole point.

    And as I've already pointed out the ECHR does not hold the right of veto over the Supreme Court now...they only need to take the ECHR verdicts 'into account'.

    As for other irrelevant factors...not quite sure you can call the UN conventions irrelevant as ultimately they underpin our human rights in international law. You can't just focus on one element of the current laws and processes that support our human rights and ignore the rest.
    The government controls the courts and it just happens to be the right who are advocating the stripping of an individuals rights to appeal to the ECHR.

    This is where my experiences of the courts allows me to inform you that its normally necessary for an inferior court to 'take into account' judgement's issued by a superior one.

    As far as I'm aware an individual is not allowed to appeal directly to the United Nations as opposed to the ECHR that does allow individuals to appeal directly.

  15. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by lgnsh_070362 View Post
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    The government controls the courts and it just happens to be the right who are advocating the stripping of an individuals rights to appeal to the ECHR.

    This is where my experiences of the courts allows me to inform you that its normally necessary for an inferior court to 'take into account' judgement's issued by a superior one.

    As far as I'm aware an individual is not allowed to appeal directly to the United Nations as opposed to the ECHR that does allow individuals to appeal directly.
    Right so now the government controls the courts. Got ya.

    There is little point in carrying this convo on. You've given zero evidence to back up your claim that removing the ECHR will result in a facist dictatorship or in fact anyone acting with impunity. You've then flipped from the right being those that are going to act with impunity to it being the courts and now claim the courts are the government (who of course can be any shade of left or right depending on how the nation votes)...a rather convoluted route to support a statement that started as pure subjection on your part and remains as such.

    So in summary I stick by the comment that leaving the ECHR automatically means 'the right' will be able to act with impunity within the UK as crap.

    Over and out.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    Right so now the government controls the courts. Got ya.

    There is little point in carrying this convo on. You've given zero evidence to back up your claim that removing the ECHR will result in a facist dictatorship or in fact anyone acting with impunity. You've then flipped from the right being those that are going to act with impunity to it being the courts and now claim the courts are the government (who of course can be any shade of left or right depending on how the nation votes)...a rather convoluted route to support a statement that started as pure subjection on your part and remains as such.

    So in summary I stick by the comment that leaving the ECHR automatically means 'the right' will be able to act with impunity within the UK as crap.

    Over and out.
    The only reason right wing anti EU tories seek to strip UK citizens of their rights to appeal to the ECHR is to act with impunity, in other words to act in absence of being held accountable by a civilised supra national international court which upholds human rights of which citizens can rightly directly appeal to.

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