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    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Is this the beginning of the end for diesel cars and other carbon fuelled vehicles?

    It looks like there will be a ban on diesel cars in Stuttgart with other German cities sure to follow. That together with the announcement from Mercedes that they will withdraw from Touring Car racing and will instead invest more in the Formula E.

    https://www.google.com.cy/amp/amp.dw.com/en/diesel-car-ban-likely-in-stuttgart/a-39870235


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    The rush for so called clean cars is certainly popular with politicians just now but without any details of how it will be achieved and at what cost. The estimated 400,000 charging points needed to be installed in Britain will cost somewhere around 30 billion, and that's before we look at the extra output from another half dozen nuclear power stations by 2050. Doesn't seem all that green to me as people are still going to be buying cars, which is the biggest problem to overcome.
    Last edited by HappyAsHellas; 28-07-2017 at 01:38 PM. Reason: spelling

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    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    It looks like there will be a ban on diesel cars in Stuttgart with other German cities sure to follow. That together with the announcement from Mercedes that they will withdraw from Touring Car racing and will instead invest more in the Formula E.

    https://www.google.com.cy/amp/amp.dw...art/a-39870235
    I think it's really unfair on drivers who have bought diesel cars. For years we were told that diesel cars were better for the environment. A more phased introduction of something like this would be more appropriate. It seems that most cars will be electric in the near future and diesel cars will be a thing of the past.
    [SIGPIC]

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    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    2040 is the target over here which gives us time to adapt.

    You wonder how the top end manufacturers will react. An electric Ferrari?

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    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
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    2040 is the target over here which gives us time to adapt.

    You wonder how the top end manufacturers will react. An electric Ferrari?
    I think supercars will get an exemption. There's not enough of them on the road to make a difference. I think they will all have to go down the hybrid route, but that's already happening. The Porsche can do something around 50 miles on its electric motor which would be fine for driving in town.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I think it's really unfair on drivers who have bought diesel cars. For years we were told that diesel cars were better for the environment. A more phased introduction of something like this would be more appropriate. It seems that most cars will be electric in the near future and diesel cars will be a thing of the past.
    I take you point but anyone who believed that putting dirty fuel into a car then cleaning the emissions was actually BETTER than putting cleaner fuel into a car and still cleaning the emissions clearly lack the ability of objective thinking!

    A better example of effective lobbying from the (European) car makers that had invested billions into Diesel engines we shall probably never see.

    Anyway the government targets and ideas around this area are already way behind the real world. The change is already happening, the investment has been going on for years and years already and most major car manufacturers have pretty much already committed to full electric (with hybrids bridging the gap).

    If they were really serious and wanted to promote quicker take up then they should force the oil companies to install plug in chargers in all forecourts. Instead they will probably throw public money at poor value incentive schemes and the like.

    And they could finally do something about the power market in the U.K...which they have finally stated to do last week by removing the perverse disincentives that were cooked into the electricity market against storage. For a small window on what technology already exists there is a UK company called RedT that have developed a vanadium flow battery that you could easily see being used to store large amounts of renewables to be used for all manner of uses, not least charging commercial fleets of electric vans/trucks.

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    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    I think it's really unfair on drivers who have bought diesel cars. For years we were told that diesel cars were better for the environment. A more phased introduction of something like this would be more appropriate. It seems that most cars will be electric in the near future and diesel cars will be a thing of the past.
    It's a difficult one. My new diesel is ready to be picked up when I get back from holiday, it's concerning that it might soon be restricted where I can actually drive it. Add to that I've just ordered a caravan, what type of vehicle will I need to pull it around Europe in 10 years?

    On the other hand I understand the Stuttgart decision, the city is in a bowl where all the fumes just hang in the air and it takes ages before they're dispersed. The people there are already having health issues due to the poisonous particles produced by diesel. I guess the decision is between health and practicality. I think for any government intending to look after its people it's an easy choice.

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    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyAsHellas View Post
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    The rush for so called clean cars is certainly popular with politicians just now but without any details of how it will be achieved and at what cost. The estimated 400,000 charging points needed to be installed in Britain will cost somewhere around 30 billion, and that's before we look at the extra output from another half dozen nuclear power stations by 2050. Doesn't seem all that green to me as people are still going to be buying cars, which is the biggest problem to overcome.
    Germany would ideally like to take all it's nuclear reactors off line and are planning to do so. They're investing big in renewables, the question is will it be enough without major advances in E technology.

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    @hibs.net private member BroxburnHibee's Avatar
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    I was listening to a radio discussion through the night and they had a Stanford university professor talking about the 2040 target. He said that the target wouldn't mean much as in his expert opinion we will ALL be driving electric cars by 2030. 13 years? I found that hard to believe.

    He also said that car ownership will drop by 80% in that time as driverless technology kicks in.

    Sounded a bit pie in the sky to me but you'd imagine he would know his stuff.
    Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, vodka in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming, "WOO HOO what a ride!"

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    @hibs.net private member The_Exile's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Germany would ideally like to take all it's nuclear reactors off line and are planning to do so. They're investing big in renewables, the question is will it be enough without major advances in E technology.

    I think the advances in E technology are already advancing at a fantastic rate. It's the energy storage that is the issue, batteries etc and the like will need to catch up soon. This is where the next big leap is needed.

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    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BroxburnHibee View Post
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    I was listening to a radio discussion through the night and they had a Stanford university professor talking about the 2040 target. He said that the target wouldn't mean much as in his expert opinion we will ALL be driving electric cars by 2030. 13 years? I found that hard to believe.

    He also said that car ownership will drop by 80% in that time as driverless technology kicks in.

    Sounded a bit pie in the sky to me but you'd imagine he would know his stuff.
    The switch to electric cars will almost certainly happen, but I can't see ownership dropping by 80%. I certainly don't ever want to have my car taken away and replaced with a shared driverless car.
    [SIGPIC]

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    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    It looks like there will be a ban on diesel cars in Stuttgart with other German cities sure to follow. That together with the announcement from Mercedes that they will withdraw from Touring Car racing and will instead invest more in the Formula E.

    https://www.google.com.cy/amp/amp.dw...art/a-39870235
    It's the way it's going. All the housing developments we're doing at the moment are being asked for charging points.

    Given the fumes in central London, can't come soon enough!

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    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The_Exile View Post
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    I think the advances in E technology are already advancing at a fantastic rate. It's the energy storage that is the issue, batteries etc and the like will need to catch up soon. This is where the next big leap is needed.
    You get pretty good range from a Tesla or VW golf now.

    Hastle for me is charging points in the street. As the Council manage the public realm can't see anything moving very fast there. It'll take them to 2050 to approve a policy paper on the subject.

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    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    You get pretty good range from a Tesla or VW golf now.

    Hastle for me is charging points in the street. As the Council manage the public realm can't see anything moving very fast there. It'll take them to 2050 to approve a policy paper on the subject.
    Good point!

    How will people in flats, multistories etc. charge their cars?
    Space to let

  16. #15
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Good point!

    How will people in flats, multistories etc. charge their cars?
    I believe the plan is to have charging points on lampposts . Maybe by the time this becomes reality there will be a charger that you can charge in your house before fitting to your car when needed.
    [SIGPIC]

  17. #16
    Much of the hype concerning diesel being the new bad guy in town is laughable. Daf test drove their new lorries (diesel) a few years ago in London and the fumes coming out the exhaust were cleaner than the air going into the intake system. Hybrid are about as green as a blast furnace, which goes for all cars, which is of course the problem. The aforementioned 80% drop in vehicle ownership will have to happen if we really want to reach the figures for clean air being touted about. Will the oil companies start r & d in renewable energy, or offer charging facilities instead of fuel? A long long way to go with this but I suppose we have to start somewhere and a statement of intent is the easiest thing to do.

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    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    By 2040 I'll be pushing up the daisies anyway.

    I'd like to see a true analysis of where all the pollution in the world is coming from i.e cars/planes/lorries/rockets/factories/volcanos/cows (methane)/sewage & waste/etc. - the whole sheebang - and see where cars are on the graph.

  19. #18
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    By 2040 I'll be pushing up the daisies anyway.

    I'd like to see a true analysis of where all the pollution in the world is coming from i.e cars/planes/lorries/rockets/factories/volcanos/cows (methane)/sewage & waste/etc. - the whole sheebang - and see where cars are on the graph.
    I'd like to see that now before we're all pushing up daisies. The issue has become so policalised that none of us really know the full facts. Everything is just forced upon us as a general threat. It's not helpful in any way.
    [SIGPIC]

  20. #19
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HappyAsHellas View Post
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    Much of the hype concerning diesel being the new bad guy in town is laughable. Daf test drove their new lorries (diesel) a few years ago in London and the fumes coming out the exhaust were cleaner than the air going into the intake system. Hybrid are about as green as a blast furnace, which goes for all cars, which is of course the problem. The aforementioned 80% drop in vehicle ownership will have to happen if we really want to reach the figures for clean air being touted about. Will the oil companies start r & d in renewable energy, or offer charging facilities instead of fuel? A long long way to go with this but I suppose we have to start somewhere and a statement of intent is the easiest thing to do.
    What'll happen to the demand for petrol. Aberdeen will have to go back to sheep farming!

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    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    What'll happen to the demand for petrol. Aberdeen will have to go back to sheep farming!
    I'm kinda worried about the Larry Hagman Fan Club too.
    It might just be a dream though.

  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    The switch to electric cars will almost certainly happen, but I can't see ownership dropping by 80%. I certainly don't ever want to have my car taken away and replaced with a shared driverless car.
    I can't see ownership dropping by 80% either, even in the home of the big-business dominated, free market society that is the US. However, getting rid of pesky overheads like paying drivers would be a lot of people's ultimate goal, regardless of the consequences. The Indian government have taken a stand though, using the simple logic that driverless technology will lead to unemployment...which they have enough of already.

    There's also the fact that people like driving. Something that is almost always forgotten in this rush (by the billion dollar companies and their investors) to embrace this technology.

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    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Is pollution maybe just a cover for there's not really that much oil left at the rate we're using it? What we have left needs to be preserved for stuff that there's no real alternative to oil based products, like aircraft.

    As has been hinted at earlier road vehicles probably don't account for a lot of pollution in comparison with many heavily industrialised countries that don't give a monkeys, USA, China, Russia, India etc. about it. And if course there's natural pollution that can even out so that!
    Space to let

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Is pollution maybe just a cover for there's not really that much oil left at the rate we're using it? What we have left needs to be preserved for stuff that there's no real alternative to oil based products, like aircraft.

    As has been hinted at earlier road vehicles probably don't account for a lot of pollution in comparison with many heavily industrialised countries that don't give a monkeys, USA, China, Russia, India etc. about it. And if course there's natural pollution that can even out so that!
    I think we can safely say that the concept of running out of oil just isn't a reality...the world has plenty of oil. In fact the concern for big oil is starting to be the fact that technology changes may leave them with stranded assets rather than ever growing demand for an ever depleting resource.

    Pollution rather than oil use is two different questions. Depending on what stats you read about half to 60% of the worlds oil goes towards transportation so it's easy to see that electrification of said transportation would have a dramatic effect on the worlds oil demand.

    Pollution comes in many forms, not just the burning of oil in it's many guises but the recent maritime accords on the use of bunker oil shows that radical steps can be taken even in a divided world.

    I think though the main thrust here is air pollution in cities. There is no doubting that transportation is responsible for a large part of that so electric cars (but probably more importantly buses, vans and trucks) will have a huge positive impact. This is developing at a significant pace...we all know about Tesla and the likes but there is many many other developments being worked on. This link is just one example: https://www.daimler.com/products/tru...an-etruck.html


    As for aircraft always needing oil based fuels...well I wouldn't bet on that either. There is already vast R&D going into all manner of batteries that will ultimately feed into aviation as well as the development in the aviation industry itself, again just one example would be Airbus E-aircraft technology.

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    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Back in the sixties there were loads of stories about discoveries of alternatives to petrol. The oil companies allegedly bought them out to protect their product. I'm surprised there hasn't been any rumblings from them regarding this big push to E-power.
    I also wonder what is going to produce all this new E-power. Diesel turbines?
    Last edited by snooky; 29-07-2017 at 10:50 AM.

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    I was at the BP AGM earlier in the year and the discussion on this was interesting.

    Electric cars still need fuel to produce the electricity so BP will be focusing more on their production than the end use in garages. They are also switching from mainly oil to mainly gas which they believe to be 'greener' to produce.

    They fully expected non electric cars not to be sold anymore over the next 10 to 15 years.

    I've been tempted by Tesla but probably not this time, will wait until the network is in place.

    I'm certainly not put off diesel yet though. I'm petrol just now but will just depend on what engines my next choice has to offer!

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    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    I think we can safely say that the concept of running out of oil just isn't a reality...the world has plenty of oil. In fact the concern for big oil is starting to be the fact that technology changes may leave them with stranded assets rather than ever growing demand for an ever depleting resource.

    Pollution rather than oil use is two different questions. Depending on what stats you read about half to 60% of the worlds oil goes towards transportation so it's easy to see that electrification of said transportation would have a dramatic effect on the worlds oil demand.

    Pollution comes in many forms, not just the burning of oil in it's many guises but the recent maritime accords on the use of bunker oil shows that radical steps can be taken even in a divided world.

    I think though the main thrust here is air pollution in cities. There is no doubting that transportation is responsible for a large part of that so electric cars (but probably more importantly buses, vans and trucks) will have a huge positive impact. This is developing at a significant pace...we all know about Tesla and the likes but there is many many other developments being worked on. This link is just one example: https://www.daimler.com/products/tru...an-etruck.html


    As for aircraft always needing oil based fuels...well I wouldn't bet on that either. There is already vast R&D going into all manner of batteries that will ultimately feed into aviation as well as the development in the aviation industry itself, again just one example would be Airbus E-aircraft technology.
    Thanks.
    Space to let

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    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy74 View Post
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    I was at the BP AGM earlier in the year and the discussion on this was interesting.

    Electric cars still need fuel to produce the electricity so BP will be focusing more on their production than the end use in garages. They are also switching from mainly oil to mainly gas which they believe to be 'greener' to produce.

    They fully expected non electric cars not to be sold anymore over the next 10 to 15 years.

    I've been tempted by Tesla but probably not this time, will wait until the network is in place.

    I'm certainly not put off diesel yet though. I'm petrol just now but will just depend on what engines my next choice has to offer!
    Interesting.
    Thanks, Andy

    BTW, will the AA still come out and get you going if you have a flat battery? They will all be flat shaped by then.
    Okay, I'm getting silly now.
    Last edited by snooky; 29-07-2017 at 02:06 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RyeSloan View Post
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    I think we can safely say that the concept of running out of oil just isn't a reality...the world has plenty of oil. In fact the concern for big oil is starting to be the fact that technology changes may leave them with stranded assets rather than ever growing demand for an ever depleting resource.

    Pollution rather than oil use is two different questions. Depending on what stats you read about half to 60% of the worlds oil goes towards transportation so it's easy to see that electrification of said transportation would have a dramatic effect on the worlds oil demand.

    Pollution comes in many forms, not just the burning of oil in it's many guises but the recent maritime accords on the use of bunker oil shows that radical steps can be taken even in a divided world.

    I think though the main thrust here is air pollution in cities. There is no doubting that transportation is responsible for a large part of that so electric cars (but probably more importantly buses, vans and trucks) will have a huge positive impact. This is developing at a significant pace...we all know about Tesla and the likes but there is many many other developments being worked on. This link is just one example: https://www.daimler.com/products/tru...an-etruck.html


    As for aircraft always needing oil based fuels...well I wouldn't bet on that either. There is already vast R&D going into all manner of batteries that will ultimately feed into aviation as well as the development in the aviation industry itself, again just one example would be Airbus E-aircraft technology.
    Not being dependent on nutters like the Russians and Saudis is a good enough motivation to switch away from oil.

  30. #29
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    I see tesla are producing an affordable everyday electric car. Aye 26650 worth of affordable!!!!
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  31. #30
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    I see tesla are producing an affordable everyday electric car. Aye 26650 worth of affordable!!!!
    That's ok if you consider you're not dependent on the oil oligarchs.

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