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Thread: New Dr Who

  1. #61
    @hibs.net private member Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    The reference to Humpty Dumpty comes from the fact that nowhere in the rhyme does it say Humpty Dumpty is an egg, and nowhere in James Bond books (apparantly...I've not read the books though) does it say he's a white guy. Despite these two things, we know Humpty Dumpty as an egg, and we know the character of James Bond is a white guy.
    If I saw a visual depiction of the Humpty Dumpty rhyme and an egg had not been cast in the part of Humpty Dumpty, I might be surprised initially, but in no way would it alter my understanding of the story being told. There are a whole array of breakable objects which could play the part of Humpty Dumpty without altering the narrative.

    Is the same not true for a black actor playing Bond? If it wouldn't alter the narrative or affect the viewer's understanding of the story being told, why does it matter that we're used to seeing him as white?

    I do understand it can be jarring when a different actor plays a familiar character, but that's been going on with Bond for decades. If actors of different heights, weights, face shapes, hairstyles, hair colours etc. can play Bond, why can't an actor of different skin colour?


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  3. #62
    Coaching Staff HUTCHYHIBBY's Avatar
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    If Idris Elba fell off a wall would all the kings horses and all the kings men be able to put Idris together again? I'm not sure! They could try using UniBond I suppose.

  4. #63
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    If I saw a visual depiction of the Humpty Dumpty rhyme and an egg had not been cast in the part of Humpty Dumpty, I might be surprised initially, but in no way would it alter my understanding of the story being told. There are a whole array of breakable objects which could play the part of Humpty Dumpty without altering the narrative.

    Is the same not true for a black actor playing Bond? If it wouldn't alter the narrative or affect the viewer's understanding of the story being told, why does it matter that we're used to seeing him as white?

    I do understand it can be jarring when a different actor plays a familiar character, but that's been going on with Bond for decades. If actors of different heights, weights, face shapes, hairstyles, hair colours etc. can play Bond, why can't an actor of different skin colour?
    But an egg has been cast in the part of Humpty Dumpty, that's my point. Humpty Dumpty is now synonymous with being an egg.

    Your last point, I disagree...actors of vastly different heights and weights and hairstyles haven't, and shouldn't, play Bond. Mini Me off of Austin Powers, Jonah Hill, any guy with a pony tail. None of those should play Bond, cos that's not what Bond is like.

  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY View Post
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    If Idris Elba fell off a wall would all the kings horses and all the kings men be able to put Idris together again? I'm not sure! They could try using UniBond I suppose.
    Only Avon Barksdale has the power to make Idris Elba.
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  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    But an egg has been cast in the part of Humpty Dumpty, that's my point. Humpty Dumpty is now synonymous with being an egg.
    I understand the point, but any new piece of work based on the character of James Bond or Humpty Dumpty, is an interpretation of the original work. The original HD doesn't refer to an egg; the original JB (as far as we know) doesn't refer to skin colour.

    Accordingly, if it wasn't apparently important to the original authors, why should it be important to anyone who reinterprets the work now?

    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    Your last point, I disagree...actors of vastly different heights and weights and hairstyles haven't, and shouldn't, play Bond. Mini Me off of Austin Powers, Jonah Hill, any guy with a pony tail. None of those should play Bond, cos that's not what Bond is like.
    At their respective times of playing Bond, Sean Connery looked nothing like Daniel Craig; David Niven looked nothing like George Lazenby. The appearance of Bond is irrelevant provided it fits with the narrative.

  7. #66
    @hibs.net private member Scouse Hibee's Avatar
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    James Bond is white and a good swimmer, a black version would not be so proficient in the water. For that reason alone a black actor can never be considered.

  8. #67
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I understand the point, but any new piece of work based on the character of James Bond or Humpty Dumpty, is an interpretation of the original work. The original HD doesn't refer to an egg; the original JB (as far as we know) doesn't refer to skin colour.

    Accordingly, if it wasn't apparently important to the original authors, why should it be important to anyone who reinterprets the work now?



    At their respective times of playing Bond, Sean Connery looked nothing like Daniel Craig; David Niven looked nothing like George Lazenby. The appearance of Bond is irrelevant provided it fits with the narrative.
    A quick google search just now suggests that there are a couple of 'Bond is white' bits in the books.

    Thunderball -

    He had dark, rather cruel good looks and very clear blue-gray eyes that were now observing her inspection sardonically. A scar down his right cheek showed pale against a tan so mild that he must have only recently come to the island
    The skin beneath the eyes that now slowly, mildly, surveyed his colleagues was unpouched. There was no sign of debauchery, illness, or old age on the large, white, bland face under the square, wiry black crew-cut.
    The Man With the Golden Gun

    Bond's face was white and bathed in sweat.
    “Rass, man! Ah doan talk wid buckra.” The expression “rass” is Jamaican for “shove it.” “Buckra” is a tough colloquialism for “white man.” Bond said equably, “I thought part of your religion was to love thy neighbour.”
    I get what you say about how Connery doesn't look like Craig. Facially no, they're far from twins, but they fit the profiles. But, I don't even count David Niven as Bond in the same way as the others.

  9. #68
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    James Bond is white and a good swimmer, a black version would not be so proficient in the water. For that reason alone a black actor can never be considered.
    He's also good in bed, apparently.

    For that reason alone, an Englishman should never be considered.


  10. #69
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4 View Post
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    Bond would be different, you cant make him female he is Flemings creation and to change that so drastically would piss all over his legacy imo

    Have no issues with him being black though, Iris Elba would be an amazing Bond
    So the new Bond will be female
    There is no such thing as too much yarn, just not enough time.

  11. #70
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    But an egg has been cast in the part of Humpty Dumpty, that's my point. Humpty Dumpty is now synonymous with being an egg.

    Your last point, I disagree...actors of vastly different heights and weights and hairstyles haven't, and shouldn't, play Bond. Mini Me off of Austin Powers, Jonah Hill, any guy with a pony tail. None of those should play Bond, cos that's not what Bond is like.
    Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher??
    It is a casting decision that has long puzzled fans and critics: how did Tom Cruise, who is said to be 5ft 7in (1.70 metres), come to appear as the 6ft 5in (1.95 metre) Jack Reacher in the film adaptations of Lee Child’s crime novels?
    There is no such thing as too much yarn, just not enough time.

  12. #71
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Tom Cruise as Jack Reacher??
    I didn't like it. It was a nonsense casting decision. Huge dangerous looking guy played by wee dingle.

    Love the books.

  13. #72
    @hibs.net private member Future17's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    A quick google search just now suggests that there are a couple of 'Bond is white' bits in the books.
    [B]

    Fair enough. I think the argument can still be made that casting a black man rather than a white man (all other considerations aside) would not affect the narrative in any way though.

    If memory serves, Craig's Casino Royale was intended as a reboot/start from scratch in the franchise in terms of the timeline of Bond's life. If they were ever going to cast a non-white actor, that may have been the time.

    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    I get what you say about how Connery doesn't look like Craig. Facially no, they're far from twins, but they fit the profiles. But, I don't even count David Niven as Bond in the same way as the others.
    I suppose it depends what you consider the profile to be.

  14. #73
    Coaching Staff HUTCHYHIBBY's Avatar
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    They're both just pretend, it doesnae really matter does it?

  15. #74
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    But an egg has been cast in the part of Humpty Dumpty, that's my point. Humpty Dumpty is now synonymous with being an egg.

    Your last point, I disagree...actors of vastly different heights and weights and hairstyles haven't, and shouldn't, play Bond. Mini Me off of Austin Powers, Jonah Hill, any guy with a pony tail. None of those should play Bond, cos that's not what Bond is like.
    It's fatuous to mention the characters you did but there's a bigger point - I can't believe you went to the trouble of trying to find narrative in Fleming's text that describes Bond as white, that's taking it far too seriously.

    And if you are saying we shouldn't be messing with Fleming's description then surely that means we can't have new Bond storylines and we certainly can't have them in the current times. By your logic (and I use the word loosely ) Bond films would have to be stuck in some 1950s timewarp, so we can stay true to what Fleming wrote
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  16. #75
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    It's fatuous to mention the characters you did but there's a bigger point - I can't believe you went to the trouble of trying to find narrative in Fleming's text that describes Bond as white, that's taking it far too seriously.

    And if you are saying we shouldn't be messing with Fleming's description then surely that means we can't have new Bond storylines and we certainly can't have them in the current times. By your logic (and I use the word loosely ) Bond films would have to be stuck in some 1950s timewarp, so we can stay true to what Fleming wrote
    Went to the trouble - I googled "does it say James Bond is white in the books" then took an answer off the first site I went into. It wasn't much trouble at all.

    The character of James Bond is white. Idris Elba isnt white. Ergo, he shouldn't play Bond. How do I know Bond is white...well there's 25 odd films and he's white in them. Same applies to Indiana Jones, Captain Jack Sparrow and Wolverine.

    If Matt Damon was being tipped in the press to play Apollo Creed in a Rocky remake, or play Alex Cross in a adaptation of a James Patterson book, I'd equally be saying it's nonsense.

    I just dinnae understand why some people get so upset about this, all I'm saying is a real life black guy shouldn't play a fictional white guy.

  17. #76
    Early covers of Ian Fleming books had him as white and personally can't see him being anything else.

    Idris I really like but he's probably now to old to be considered anymore as it looks like DC is doing a final one.

    Nobody springs to mind anymore think it will end up a relative unknown to take it forward.

  18. #77
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    Went to the trouble - I googled "does it say James Bond is white in the books" then took an answer off the first site I went into. It wasn't much trouble at all.

    The character of James Bond is white. Idris Elba isnt white. Ergo, he shouldn't play Bond. How do I know Bond is white...well there's 25 odd films and he's white in them. Same applies to Indiana Jones, Captain Jack Sparrow and Wolverine.

    If Matt Damon was being tipped in the press to play Apollo Creed in a Rocky remake, or play Alex Cross in a adaptation of a James Patterson book, I'd equally be saying it's nonsense.

    I just dinnae understand why some people get so upset about this, all I'm saying is a real life black guy shouldn't play a fictional white guy.
    And by your logic, the fictional white guy lives in the 1950s. So why should he feature in films set nowadays - I guess your point is he should be played by a white actor in his nineties?
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  19. #78
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    And by your logic, the fictional white guy lives in the 1950s. So why should he feature in films set nowadays - I guess your point is he should be played by a white actor in his nineties?
    Go on then, tell me how that's my logic...

    Tell me how me saying Bond is white in 25 films means everything he does should be set in the 50's.

    Looking forward to what should be an interesting answer, cos I cannae work out how you got there at all.

  20. #79
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    Go on then, tell me how that's my logic...

    Tell me how me saying Bond is white in 25 films means everything he does should be set in the 50's.

    Looking forward to what should be an interesting answer, cos I cannae work out how you got there at all.
    You said that Fleming wrote Bond as white so he needed to continue to be white.

    Fleming also wrote Bond as a character living in a certain time period. Surely that needs to stay the same as well?

    Of course what's happened is that the production company have moved the story on, changed the time, changed the other characters - were you okay with M being a woman incidentally?

    If everything else can change then surely Bond's skin colour can change too?

    As it goes, I don't see Elba as making a good Bond, he just doesn't seem right to me but that's not because of his skin colour.
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  21. #80
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    You said that Fleming wrote Bond as white so he needed to continue to be white.

    Fleming also wrote Bond as a character living in a certain time period. Surely that needs to stay the same as well?

    Of course what's happened is that the production company have moved the story on, changed the time, changed the other characters - were you okay with M being a woman incidentally?

    If everything else can change then surely Bond's skin colour can change too?

    As it goes, I don't see Elba as making a good Bond, he just doesn't seem right to me but that's not because of his skin colour.
    Times change, a person doesn't change from white to black though.

    The character M isn't meant to be portraying the same person, or at least that's my understanding of it. Bond is Bond. M is whoever is filling that role.

  22. #81
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    Times change, a person doesn't change from white to black though.

    The character M isn't meant to be portraying the same person, or at least that's my understanding of it. Bond is Bond. M is whoever is filling that role.
    It's really not that big a deal though is it?

    No one else seems that worried about a black actor taking on the role, should the production company cast one.

    If they do will you be launching a Keep Bond White campaign?
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  23. #82
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mibbes Aye View Post
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    It's really not that big a deal though is it?

    No one else seems that worried about a black actor taking on the role, should the production company cast one.

    If they do will you be launching a Keep Bond White campaign?
    It's not a big deal no, nor is it a big deal to keep the character Bond as a white guy. I'm no even a big James Bond fan, would much rather see a new series of Luther and enjoy Idris Elba in that, than another Bond movie with whatever white guy gets cast as Bond.

    I'm not in the slightest bit worried.

    And aye, obviously I'll be having a campaign. I'm just going to turn my Free Deirdre Barlow t-shirt inside out and write Bond Isnae Black on it. Want in?

  24. #83
    @hibs.net private member Mibbes Aye's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    It's not a big deal no, nor is it a big deal to keep the character Bond as a white guy. I'm no even a big James Bond fan, would much rather see a new series of Luther and enjoy Idris Elba in that, than another Bond movie with whatever white guy gets cast as Bond.

    I'm not in the slightest bit worried.

    And aye, obviously I'll be having a campaign. I'm just going to turn my Free Deirdre Barlow t-shirt inside out and write Bond Isnae Black on it. Want in?
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  25. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    Went to the trouble - I googled "does it say James Bond is white in the books" then took an answer off the first site I went into. It wasn't much trouble at all.

    The character of James Bond is white. Idris Elba isnt white. Ergo, he shouldn't play Bond. How do I know Bond is white...well there's 25 odd films and he's white in them. Same applies to Indiana Jones, Captain Jack Sparrow and Wolverine.

    If Matt Damon was being tipped in the press to play Apollo Creed in a Rocky remake, or play Alex Cross in a adaptation of a James Patterson book, I'd equally be saying it's nonsense.

    I just dinnae understand why some people get so upset about this, all I'm saying is a real life black guy shouldn't play a fictional white guy.

    Interesting to see there is reference to him being white. With that in mind i think you make a fair point re casting both in bond and other films.

    Off the back of this i looked at the most recent census, and there are actually a lot more people of indian and pakistani descent living in Britain. Given the current climate of fear round muslim populations etc, it would possibly be more realistic to have an asian bond, as i bet we have plenty spies trying to infiltrate isis etc at the moment. If Elbas only in line because he is black, then that is actually racism too.

  26. #85
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    He's also good in bed, apparently.

    For that reason alone, an Englishman should never be considered.

    Yes, that came from his Scottish heritage.

  27. #86
    @hibs.net private member Scouse Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    He's also good in bed, apparently.

    For that reason alone, an Englishman should never be considered.

    Do you have a lot of experience in bed with English men? ;-)

  28. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    He's also good in bed, apparently.

    For that reason alone, an Englishman should never be considered.



    Racist

  29. #88
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HUTCHYHIBBY View Post
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    They're both just pretend, it doesnae really matter does it?
    Nail, head and hammer.

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    Bond would not work as a female due to the nature of the character, he is an arrogant, smartarse, womanising douchebag. He is the epitome of an alpha male

    In the older films this was meant to be a good thing as that what was expected of men, he was someone to look up to and admire. In the up-to-date films he is being portrayed as somewhat old-fashioned and out of touch due to these characteristics. A blunt instrument in a world of surgical precision in the modern, digital age but doing violent things for the right reasons.

    A female character acting in the way that Bond does wouldn't work as well however there is nothing to suggest that Bond needs to be white, a british 40ish year old male character in 2017 can be played just as authentically by a black or asian actor as a white one. The Bond films are not linear, once a new actor takes over the role from Daniel craig they wont carry forward the storylines and arcs etc from the last few movies, it's a series of films that essentially reboots itself with each new actor that takes on the role.

  31. #90
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Should change name of prog to "Ds Who"

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