Fans Rep Surgery - Sat 15th July at Hibs Club (NOT THIS WEEKEND)

[traceyhibs]

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Twitter is a total minefield sometimes as it is to all intents and purposes not moderated, certainly short term. Complaints can take weeks to be dealt with.

We've tried to deal with anything that's gone too far on here but for the most part it's seemed to be ok to me.

.net and Bounce has actually been fine. Not everyone posts on forums or social media so some is direct. Everyone on here and Bounce have actually just vented and shown their anger and I have no issues with that at all.


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[Tornadoes70]

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Highly emotive subject area, if you say it prove it! The information to us re the legal issues are being talked at us, why should we believe it?

I'm obviously not in the know but I would hazard a guess that legal issues have accumulated since the five way agreement was agreed upon. There was zero legal issues to have prevented the footballing governing bodies from stripping the titles based on the grounds there having been ineligible player registrations upon the side letters being found etc etc. Having stripped the titles the Oldco would then have had the opportunity to challenge the decision if they had so wished as is normal legal procedure.

If Oldco had chosen to lodge an action most probably in the way of Judicial Review, the norm for challenging decisions made by authorities they would have generated a legal ruling on the matter further down the line.

Its gone way past that simplistic action that was the morally correct one now and there very probably are legal issues surrounding any further action that could now be acted on. As the club have made their stance known I've accepted the board are acting in the best interests of Hibernian Football Club and the game in general however I would have been all for having stripped the mendacious Oldco of its dubious titles. However, we will always know they titles were won under false pretence. Maybe it is time to move on as its looking ever more unlikely the titles will be stripped of which was of course the morally correct action to have taken especially in light of the Supreme Court ruling, however its very probably true there are legal issues now in play that make it very difficult for retrospective action to be taken.

I'm merely speculating but probably not that far off the mark so to speak.

Now lets get a good result on Saturday for goodness sake Hibs!

[Beefster]

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Thats's fair enough, but after the twitter abuse, I would not have switched laptop on again if I were them

That's the nature of the beast nowadays for anyone with a public profile and has been for a number of years now. Celebrities, industry experts, politicians, journalists etc etc.

Doesn't make it right but if, like me, you aren't prepared for it to happen and ignored then you've got two choices, stay off Twitter or don't put yourself in the position in the first place.

By the way, I am ‪@DonaldJTrumpJr‬ on Twitter if anyone fancies a debate/pop.

[sleeping giant]

Pretty disappointed to hear of the abuse although I always expected it to happen
The fans reps have a thankless task and are in a position where people feel that they can blame them and vent their anger toward them when decisions do not go the way they desired.
Faceless internet personas can cause a lot of grief over a key board and say things that they would never say in a face to face meeting.

I'm also struggling to believe that Hibs fans who attend matches didn't know who Frank was.
He's nearly as famous as Tam McCourt :-)

[Baldy Foghorn]

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That's the nature of the beast nowadays for anyone with a public profile and has been for a number of years now. Celebrities, industry experts, politicians, journalists etc etc.

Doesn't make it right but if, like me, you aren't prepared for it to happen and ignored then you've got two choices, stay off Twitter or don't put yourself in the position in the first place.

[Baldy Foghorn]

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Pretty disappointed to hear of the abuse although I always expected it to happen
The fans reps have a thankless task and are in a position where people feel that they can blame them and vent their anger toward them when decisions do not go the way they desired.
Faceless internet personas can cause a lot of grief over a key board and say things that they would never say in a face to face meeting.

I'm also struggling to believe that Hibs fans who attend matches didn't know who Frank was.
He's nearly as famous as Tam McCourt :-)

Indeed

[edinburghhibee]

Hi Tracey, thanks for your reply and I'm sorry you have to put up with the abuse you and frank have received.

From reading your post regarding the decision it seems, to me anyway, that you based your decision on what you believed was right which given you have all the info is fine. However if your a fans rep surely you can't vote either way unless you ask the support or at least set up some sort of meeting with us? I'm a member here and on the bounce and there are, again in my opinion, more fans who are dismayed at the statement than not.

I agree that might not be the case off social media forums but out of the 7 of us who attend regularly of varying ages non of us agree with this statement.

I just find it strange that you came to the decision you did when I look on here and the bounce.


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[Nakedmanoncrack]

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Hi All,

Frank and I unfortunately had to take a step back from social media and the whole situation due to some abuse we were receiving. We understand there are supporters who are angry with the statement and everyone is entitled to their opinions but personal abuse is unacceptable.

Frank and I are happy to speak with anyone prior to the game on Saturday just let us know. Happy also if anyone wants to discuss over the phone. Email us your details and we will get in touch. I find these things are better face to face or by phone as posts on Social Media can often be misconstrued.

What we would like to do is apologise for the silence after we told you a statement would be out and it wasn't. The delays were quite simply as stated in Monday's statement. We hadn't been gagged as some have suggested but didn't have anything concrete to tell you. Error of judgement on our part.

If you want to discuss any other matters please do not hesitate to contact us. Our silence we feel has certainly undone a lot of good work we have put in with communication and we will work hard to restore that.

For those who have questioned how Frank and I work - Frank and I speak several times a day and work as a team. Frank receives many calls from supporters, face to face and emails whereas because I work online I can deal with all the online queries as well as emails and face to face. This works well for us and think we compliment each other. We are always well aware of what the other is doing and dealing with.

Our emails again are:

fdougan@hibernianfc.co.uk
tsmith@hibernianfc.co.uk



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No real point discussing it face to face unless you are willing to eloborate more than you are prepared to here, is that the case?

[MrSmith]

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Then what? Should the fans' reps be obliged to release sensitive information to back up every decision made by the board?

Sorry shouldve been more precise, I was in context with the Hibernian board when making that point.

[18Craig75]

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Hi All,

Frank and I unfortunately had to take a step back from social media and the whole situation due to some abuse we were receiving. We understand there are supporters who are angry with the statement and everyone is entitled to their opinions but personal abuse is unacceptable.

Frank and I are happy to speak with anyone prior to the game on Saturday just let us know. Happy also if anyone wants to discuss over the phone. Email us your details and we will get in touch. I find these things are better face to face or by phone as posts on Social Media can often be misconstrued.

What we would like to do is apologise for the silence after we told you a statement would be out and it wasn't. The delays were quite simply as stated in Monday's statement. We hadn't been gagged as some have suggested but didn't have anything concrete to tell you. Error of judgement on our part.

If you want to discuss any other matters please do not hesitate to contact us. Our silence we feel has certainly undone a lot of good work we have put in with communication and we will work hard to restore that.

For those who have questioned how Frank and I work - Frank and I speak several times a day and work as a team. Frank receives many calls from supporters, face to face and emails whereas because I work online I can deal with all the online queries as well as emails and face to face. This works well for us and think we compliment each other. We are always well aware of what the other is doing and dealing with.

Our emails again are:

fdougan@hibernianfc.co.uk
tsmith@hibernianfc.co.uk



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You mention that you both had to take a step back from social media because of abuse. You then go on to say further down the thread that there was no personal abuse from Hibs.net or the bounce.

Given you were very active on .net during your campaign (not sure about the bounce), and Frank to a lesser extent, id assume that a decent proportion of your votes came from the readership here.

This is why I can't understand how you came to the decision you did without once canvassing opinion on either of the sites. I'm not saying that you exclusively represent the views of .net readers...but surely when coming to your decision, you could've asked given evidently a large portion of .net users must have voted you in to represent them.

Personally can't see the fans rep role remaining tenable after this term.

[3pm]

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Thats's fair enough, but after the twitter abuse, I would not have switched laptop on again if I were them

Get with the times man, get an iPad! :o)

[Baldy Foghorn]

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Get with the times man, get an iPad! :o)

My eyes are fine R

Don't like the pirate look

[hibee_nation]

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Hi there,

I voted for the statement that came out and was based on views from forums and from people we had spoken to and from emails. I also was privy to further information and the legal side. I thought I was quite clued up on all of this but was very surprised with information that was given to me. We had a tough decision to make and made it based on everything I had in front of me. No one forced me and didn't do it to appease the board. It's not something I did lightly. No one would ever tell me to do something I didn't want to do.

I know this will anger a lot of supporters and happy to take the flak that comes my way as I've put myself in that position.

Happy to discuss further face to face or on the phone. Will be at the match tomorrow, Livingston on Tues and Ross County away.

Thanks

Tracey




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Find that hard to believe. Seemed to me pretty much everywhere the majority was opposed to it.

[JeMeSouviens]

As rotten as it is that the reps have to put up with abuse, it's as predictable as it is depressing. I don't think it's a good enough reason not to engage with the fanbase as much as possible both before and after. Non-communication only makes things worse. You might do a great job of talking to people who know who you at games, but you're never going to be able to reach the sort of numbers you need to that way to make fans' reps a viable thing, imo.

[CallumLaidlaw]

I must've got the wrong end of the stick regarding the fans reps. I was always under the impression that after their statements, we then elected 2 people that we wanted us to represent the fans on the board. I certainly didn't think they had to go and conduct a poll on every single matter.

The personal abuse is simply disgusting. Some "fans" really let the majority of fans down at times. The problem with the internet in 2017 is its accessible to basically everybody, so any idiot can fire abuse at whoever they want behind a faceless profile. The amount of insults I've seen thrown about online because a person said they just want to move on is unbelievable. Bigoted comments, and just generally disgusting insults. Very much reminded me of the ugly side of the Scottish Referendum.

From looking across facebook and twitter tho, I seem to be seeing the same handful of people that are trying to shout really loudly on the matter. I get that folk want the SFA to be investigated, but if Hibs feel moving on is best for OUR CLUB, then I'm happy with that.

[Baldy Foghorn]

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I must've got the wrong end of the stick regarding the fans reps. I was always under the impression that after their statements, we then elected 2 people that we wanted us to represent the fans on the board. I certainly didn't think they had to go and conduct a poll on every single matter.

The personal abuse is simply disgusting. Some "fans" really let the majority of fans down at times. The problem with the internet in 2017 is its accessible to basically everybody, so any idiot can fire abuse at whoever they want behind a faceless profile. The amount of insults I've seen thrown about online because a person said they just want to move on is unbelievable. Bigoted comments, and just generally disgusting insults. Very much reminded me of the ugly side of the Scottish Referendum.

From looking across facebook and twitter tho, I seem to be seeing the same handful of people that are trying to shout really loudly on the matter. I get that folk want the SFA to be investigated, but if Hibs feel moving on is best for OUR CLUB, then I'm happy with that.

In a nutshell C

[bigwheel]

The fans reps are getting challenged because the outcome of the board decision isn't the populist position many would have hoped for...

For me, I'm confident that the fans reps will have represented theirs and others views at the meeting - that's all I personally ask of them..

We won't like every decision that Hibs make, but if they are making them in the best interest of our club then I will support them...

Some will never let this go ...mind you I'm still annoyed with John McDonald for cheating for a penalty in the late 70s !

[lapsedhibee]

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The fans reps are getting challenged because the outcome of the board decision isn't the populist position many would have hoped for...

For me, I'm confident that the fans reps will have represented theirs and others views at the meeting - that's all I personally ask of them..

We won't like every decision that Hibs make, but if they are making them in the best interest of our club then I will support them...

Some will never let this go ...mind you I'm still annoyed with John McDonald for cheating for a penalty in the late 70s !

What, a hun got away with cheating in the 1970s? And the 1980s, and the 1990s, and the 2000s, and the 1960s, and ..... well in that case, probably best to move on then. That'll show them.

[green day]

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Find that hard to believe. Seemed to me pretty much everywhere the majority was opposed to it.

How can you say that with absolutely nothing to back it up?

The people opposed to it were/are very vocal, yes - but that certainly doesnt mean that "the majority" were opposed to it.

Hibs.net has a lot of members (dont know how many), and so far 272 people have voted that they were opposed to it.

Thats less than 2% of the Hibs fans who will be there tomorrow - we have absolutely no idea how the other 98% would vote, nor can you extrapolate the .net poll results over the entire support.

[ancient hibee]

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Find that hard to believe. Seemed to me pretty much everywhere the majority was opposed to it.

Are there any polls on this site where the majority of net members are opposed to the statement?You seem to confuse a majority of those who cared enough to vote as the same as an overall majority.

[Nakedmanoncrack]

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How can you say that with absolutely nothing to back it up?

The people opposed to it were/are very vocal, yes - but that certainly doesnt mean that "the majority" were opposed to it.

Hibs.net has a lot of members (dont know how many), and so far 272 people have voted that they were opposed to it.

Thats less than 2% of the Hibs fans who will be there tomorrow - we have absolutely no idea how the other 98% would vote, nor can you extrapolate the .net poll results over the entire support.

We have no idea how the silent people would vote- correct.

However the claim from the rep is that she "voted for the statement that came out and based on views from forums and from people we had spoken to".

That simply doesn't stand up, unless she is looking at different forums and talking to different people from the rest of us.

Some evidence would be appreciated.

[Tornadoes70]

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How can you say that with absolutely nothing to back it up?

The people opposed to it were/are very vocal, yes - but that certainly doesnt mean that "the majority" were opposed to it.

Hibs.net has a lot of members (dont know how many), and so far 272 people have voted that they were opposed to it.

Thats less than 2% of the Hibs fans who will be there tomorrow - we have absolutely no idea how the other 98% would vote, nor can you extrapolate the .net poll results over the entire support.

To be fair the man or woman's allowed a viewpoint even if its based solely on common sense alone. The common sense being that not many folk appreciate sporting titles being won by spending money that cheated the taxpayer out of many millions of pounds. I think that would be a given to most folk. Its a fair enough assumption to make in my opinion too.

GGTTH

[green day]

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We have no idea how the silent people would vote- correct.

However the claim from the rep is that she "voted for the statement that came out and based on views from forums and from people we had spoken to".

That simply doesn't stand up, unless she is looking at different forums and talking to different people from the rest of us.

Some evidence would be appreciated.

Aye, asking where these came from is fair - however I suspect that its the "people she has spoken to" that has the larger numbers than (for example) those posting on the Rangers EBT thread over the last couple of months (which seems to me to have been a relatively small number of people in the scheme of things).

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To be fair the man or woman's allowed a viewpoint even if its based solely on common sense alone. The common sense being that not many folk appreciate sporting titles being won by spending money that cheated the taxpayer out of many millions of pounds. I think that would be a given to most folk. Its a fair enough assumption to make in my opinion too.

GGTTH

Well, common sense in your opinion - but that doesnt mean you are right (or me for that matter) - as the nakedman above says, if she has canvassed a number of people and got X result then thats good enough for me.

[Tornadoes70]

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Aye, asking where these came from is fair - however I suspect that its the "people she has spoken to" that has the larger numbers than (for example) those posting on the Rangers EBT thread over the last couple of months (which seems to me to have been a relatively small number of people in the scheme of things).



Well, common sense in your opinion - but that doesnt mean you are right (or me for that matter) - as the nakedman above says, if she has canvassed a number of people and got X result then thats good enough for me.

It's still a fair assumption to make by using common sense that most people would be against football clubs winning titles by cheating HMRC out of many millions of pounds in doing so. I surmise i'm 100% correct in my assumption no matter if you sit on the fence stating 'nobody knows'. Sometimes its perfectly ok to make assumptions using common sense alone.

GGTTH

[Beefster]

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Thats less than 2% of the Hibs fans who will be there tomorrow - we have absolutely no idea how the other 98% would vote, nor can you extrapolate the .net poll results over the entire support.

2% of a constituency would be abnormally high for any poll, I'd have thought.

[green day]

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2% of a constituency would be abnormally high for any poll, I'd have thought.

Actually, including the people supporting the statement or on the fence, it was between 3 and 4%.

So, yep it would be a great indicator if it was a representative cross section - but in my opinion, a few hundred responses on Hibs net isnt really representative of the overall Hibs support.

I might be wrong, but I dont think so.

[ancient hibee]

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2% of a constituency would be abnormally high for any poll, I'd have thought.

Not when the constituency was based on a common interest.In this case Hibs.

[JeMeSouviens]

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Actually, including the people supporting the statement or on the fence, it was between 3 and 4%.

So, yep it would be a great indicator if it was a representative cross section - but in my opinion, a few hundred responses on Hibs net isnt really representative of the overall Hibs support.

I might be wrong, but I dont think so.

I accept it's an unscientific, self-selecting straw poll but otoh I think at a minimum it indicates that those who feel strongly are likely to be against the statement. And it's not as if the result is in any way close. Add in 108 from the seemingly condsiderably more militant Bounce who have voted 94-14 that it's a resigning issue for the fans' reps (although there's bound to be overlap, I just voted on the bounce poll to see the result).

So I think you're right that it's not conclusive evidence but I think you're wrong to dismiss it entirely. Especially when there's such strong vocal support for the board position here.

[green day]

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I accept it's an unscientific, self-selecting straw poll but otoh I think at a minimum it indicates that those who feel strongly are likely to be against the statement. And it's not as if the result is in any way close. Add in 108 from the seemingly condsiderably more militant Bounce who have voted 94-14 that it's a resigning issue for the fans' reps (although there's bound to be overlap, I just voted on the bounce poll to see the result).

So I think you're right that it's not conclusive evidence but I think you're wrong to dismiss it entirely. Especially when there's such strong vocal support for the board position here.

I dont dismiss it entirely, lets be honest its the only poll we have got !!

What I have been saying is that none of us can say that this result is representative of the entire constituency - any more than a poll of people in Edinburgh was v the entire UK ahead of the Brexit referendum.

Tracey and Frank need to expand on the decision making process when they meet people F2F. Until then, any talk of losing faith in the reps or them stepping down should be shelved.

[BSEJVT]

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Exactly, I've been in that position myself after arguing vehemently against something, then having to go out and support a position I didnt take. Its called collective responsibility and the only way to function coherently. If the policy is one that you cannot support - you resign. That's what the reps should have done, but instead we find that they apparently voted unanimously with the board. It's an untenable position.

Nail on head

As PB did, I said at the time it was an impossible position and will always be so and should be done away with.

The idea also that a majority of supporters stand for any particular position on anything is completely false.

A vocal majority maybe, but a majority who knows.

Judging by our Cup Final attendances we have circa 35,000 fans, short of making them all members of something and giving them a secure individual online vote which they all must use on every issue then there is no way of telling anything.

The downside of sitting on any board but possibly particularly the board of a sporting entity is that you are often forced to make or acquiesce in decisions that go against what you want but which are necessary for the business to survive or flourish.

I wouldn't wish being a Fans Rep (or HSL Rep when the time comes) on the board on my worst enemy.