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  1. #121
    I don't really give a toss if Frank is good on social media or otherwise. In the dealings I've had with him, admittedly limited, he's been approachable and helpful. Likewise I've exchanged a few PMs with Tracey and she's been very helpful.

    The communication is never going to be what some want, and I include myself, because the reps are bound by the same confidentiality as everyone else on the board. If there is sensitive information that has influenced their vote on this issue they can't now issue a statement revealing it.

    It's a thankless task, and with no disrespect intended to those who have taken on the role, I said at the time of the last elections the whole thing should be scrapped and I stand by that now.


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  3. #122
    @hibs.net private member Johnny Clash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I don't really give a toss if Frank is good on social media or otherwise. In the dealings I've had with him, admittedly limited, he's been approachable and helpful. Likewise I've exchanged a few PMs with Tracey and she's been very helpful.

    The communication is never going to be what some want, and I include myself, because the reps are bound by the same confidentiality as everyone else on the board. If there is sensitive information that has influenced their vote on this issue they can't now issue a statement revealing it.

    It's a thankless task, and with no disrespect intended to those who have taken on the role, I said at the time of the last elections the whole thing should be scrapped and I stand by that now.
    If a rep did feel that they had based their decision on some mysterious piece of information that was so sensitive it would harm Hibs by discussing publicly then it would be appreciated if they just said that!

    I think there's two things at stake here - Firstly, the voting by elected supporters' reps for an option that clearly most fans are against and secondly the radio silence regards why they did this? I mean, perhaps neither could make the meeting and it was unanimous vote of those who could attend? We just don't know.

  4. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Clash View Post
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    If a rep did feel that they had based their decision on some mysterious piece of information that was so sensitive it would harm Hibs by discussing publicly then it would be appreciated if they just said that!

    I think there's two things at stake here - Firstly, the voting by elected supporters' reps for an option that clearly most fans are against and secondly the radio silence regards why they did this? I mean, perhaps neither could make the meeting and it was unanimous vote of those who could attend? We just don't know.
    Board decisions are made collectively...they should be fully supported by all board members after the event...I would be disappointed if a board colleague then shared their individual views - once the position is agreed , they should all support it

    That doesn't mean we couldn't have been given some updates along the way though . Equally, and perhaps more importantly, we should expect that they have sought and represented the views of Supporters at the. meetings. It's a key part of their role.

    I'm not expecting to agree with all decisions Hibs make - I do expect the fans reps to keep their commitment of regular updates after board meetings and consistent communications etc. This isn't there yet for me

  5. #124
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Clash View Post
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    If a rep did feel that they had based their decision on some mysterious piece of information that was so sensitive it would harm Hibs by discussing publicly then it would be appreciated if they just said that!

    I think there's two things at stake here - Firstly, the voting by elected supporters' reps for an option that clearly most fans are against and secondly the radio silence regards why they did this? I mean, perhaps neither could make the meeting and it was unanimous vote of those who could attend? We just don't know.
    Your last paragraph is exactly the issue I was getting at.

    If the 2 reps get an agenda that will be marked confidential how do they accurately canvas the wishes of the fans? A poll on here or a chat with a few people at a game doesn't do that and breaches confidentiality. They also then can't discuss confidential information discussed within that meeting unless given permission to do so. The voting intention of members of the board will also be known and influenced prior to a vote, once the vote takes place and a decision is reached that becomes collective.

    I made this point at the time of the elections. I've sat on a couple of boards and I know the kind of communication that fans want, myself included, about every decision, or at least some of them, made by the Hibs board is impossible.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I know this isn't aimed at me, but I'll answer on behalf of myself anyway.

    I thought about it and quite fancied it.

    The truth is, I am a bit of an internet geek. I quite like debate on hibs.net, I quite like getting involved. It is a good platform with a lot of good debate, and I feel quite comfortable sticking my oar in, having an opinion, debating it, defending it and disagreeing with people from a position of anonymity. You can see a point that someone has made, pause for thought, gather your thoughts and post a reply as you see it. Some people may agree with your opinion, some people won't.

    This is tougher face to face. Thinking on the spot and responding to problems, concerns and issues in person takes a certain skill set, possibly different to those required over the net. That's why I wouldn't give Frank a kicking for his lack of contribution on hibs.net - the squabbles we have over the internet may not suit his skill set, he may not want to get involved in an arena where he might not do himself justice. Face to face, on the day - I'm sure that is where he is at his best. He's a well-known face and has been trusted by many to represent us, so he must be doing something right for a large number of people.

    The main reason I wouldn't stand - I think it is a thankless, impossible task. How on Earth are you meant to represent the Hibs support? We are a huge, diverse group, some reasoned and sensible, some utter bampots. It is literally impossible to do justice to the diversity and strength of opinion that exists amongst us. The "board position on EBTs" is such a topic. It is passionate, overly-emotional and very difficult. The fans reps are piggy in the middle, they'll have a lot more information than any of us to make a decision but have to represent our uninformed position to the board.

    I have sympathy for the fans reps, but only to a point, as surely they would have known this when they stood for election. They will have known exactly what they were getting themselves into. It is a position that is a constant ball ache and brings constant aggro. Ok, now it is EBTs. But it could have been relegation, non-promotion, the team on the park being cack, the Scottish Cup final aftermath, a ballsed-up new stand build etc etc etc.
    Great post.

    IMO the reps job, and that of the Board, would be much easier if Hibs had, and published, a clear set of values that defined what the club stands for, their principles and ethos that we can all get behind. I started to follow Hibs in the 70s and there is most definitely a set of values which attracts me to the club, the way they got about their business, the way the team plays, the sense of fair play and quality in everything the do (whether it comes off or not). They hold some of the same values as me. But I've never seen it written down or explained.

    If this was clearly articulated, folk could perhaps start to understand how decisions are made and fit in with our values - even if they don't agree with them. It's when decisions or actions by the club are at odds with the perception of the clubs values and personality, that folk get confused and brassed off. The independent investigation of the Rangers debacle is a good example.

    IMO without that, we'll continue to have disparate views, debate and confusion when it comes to generic issues such as the direction of the game and how we'd like to see the game develop. And the reps will be on a hiding to nothing.

  7. #126
    @hibs.net private member oldbutdim's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs View Post
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    So when Tracey says anything on social media, she's talking for him too?

    Everything she says are his thoughts too, brilliant, i had a wife like that once.
    That explains everything.

    If my wife was always quoting Frank Dougan I'd be raging too.

    Sympathies mate.

  8. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    Your last paragraph is exactly the issue I was getting at.

    If the 2 reps get an agenda that will be marked confidential how do they accurately canvas the wishes of the fans? A poll on here or a chat with a few people at a game doesn't do that and breaches confidentiality. They also then can't discuss confidential information discussed within that meeting unless given permission to do so. The voting intention of members of the board will also be known and influenced prior to a vote, once the vote takes place and a decision is reached that becomes collective.

    I made this point at the time of the elections. I've sat on a couple of boards and I know the kind of communication that fans want, myself included, about every decision, or at least some of them, made by the Hibs board is impossible.
    The reps could monitor the tone of the discussions on here and the Bounce. If the issue is that important, then fans will approach them at matches or by email to raise concerns. The reps can then inform the Board of what they are hearing.

    Given that the reps are meant to be the voice of the supporters, and the overwhelming majority on here (and I suspect the Bounce) wanted the EBT decision examined, the statement that the Board decision was unanimous makes it sound like our views are unrepresented.

    I agree that all directors are then bound to support the decision in public whether they voted for it or not.
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  9. #128
    @hibs.net private member blackpoolhibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldbutdim View Post
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    That explains everything.

    If my wife was always quoting Frank Dougan I'd be raging too.

    Sympathies mate.


  10. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    Your last paragraph is exactly the issue I was getting at.

    If the 2 reps get an agenda that will be marked confidential how do they accurately canvas the wishes of the fans? A poll on here or a chat with a few people at a game doesn't do that and breaches confidentiality. They also then can't discuss confidential information discussed within that meeting unless given permission to do so. The voting intention of members of the board will also be known and influenced prior to a vote, once the vote takes place and a decision is reached that becomes collective.

    I made this point at the time of the elections. I've sat on a couple of boards and I know the kind of communication that fans want, myself included, about every decision, or at least some of them, made by the Hibs board is impossible.
    It is indeed inappropriate to share discussions and individual voting intentions from board meetings - board take collective decisions , which all should support once that consensus is agreed..

    The Rangers topic is a well known high profile topic . It wasn't a secret it was to be discussed - so there should be active approaches to secure the general views of the supporter base, so that it was properly represented at the meeting - it may not change the decision and I suspect (without knowing) that fans views likely were shared by the reps. The Boards role Is to make what they think is the best decision for Hibs - not a populist position based on fans views . They clearly feel they have (based on their statement)

    On the broader point , I feel the fans reps (in general) have not got regular communication right yet - albeit it has been an improvement from Last term - and this is causing frustration...with the Rangers topic being a sensitive one - it called for increased engagement..rather than less fans rep feedback ..

  11. #130
    @hibs.net private member Thecat23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs View Post
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    Grow up, FFS we have a fans rep who either lied to us or can't be bothered doing what he said he'd do to help get elected, which one is it?
    I think maybe if you addressed him by his name there may be a chance he'd reply? We haven't agreed on many things for a long time but I do agree with most of the posts you have said on The Rangers investigation.

    I don't think you need to continue talking about Frank by saying the "other one." I've met Frank couple of times and he has the clubs best interests at heart and always happy to chat so I am surprised he's not really been on here. Tracey I do know better, and have a lot of time for if I'm honest. I'm just glad I'm not a fan rep that's for sure!

  12. #131
    @hibs.net private member Thecat23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I don't really give a toss if Frank is good on social media or otherwise. In the dealings I've had with him, admittedly limited, he's been approachable and helpful. Likewise I've exchanged a few PMs with Tracey and she's been very helpful.

    The communication is never going to be what some want, and I include myself, because the reps are bound by the same confidentiality as everyone else on the board. If there is sensitive information that has influenced their vote on this issue they can't now issue a statement revealing it.

    It's a thankless task, and with no disrespect intended to those who have taken on the role, I said at the time of the last elections the whole thing should be scrapped and I stand by that now.
    Agree with all this, Both very approachable and it can't be easy. But I don't think having fan reps on the board works to be honest. This is a prime example and I'd be surprised if they continue down this route.

  13. #132
    @hibs.net private member Ozyhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firestarter View Post
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    Billy, why didn't you stand for rep? Serious question? You would be ideal imo.
    I'd vote for Billy.


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  14. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    It is indeed inappropriate to share discussions and individual voting intentions from board meetings - board take collective decisions , which all should support once that consensus is agreed..

    The Rangers topic is a well known high profile topic . It wasn't a secret it was to be discussed - so there should be active approaches to secure the general views of the supporter base, so that it was properly represented at the meeting - it may not change the decision and I suspect (without knowing) that fans views likely were shared by the reps. The Boards role Is to make what they think is the best decision for Hibs - not a populist position based on fans views . They clearly feel they have (based on their statement)

    On the broader point , I feel the fans reps (in general) have not got regular communication right yet - albeit it has been an improvement from Last term - and this is causing frustration...with the Rangers topic being a sensitive one - it called for increased engagement..rather than less fans rep feedback ..
    Yep agree with much of that.

    All of which strengthens my belief the whole idea isn't needed. If the other board members feel the feedback from supporters via fans reps isn't in the best interests of the club then they will simply disregard it.
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  15. #134
    @hibs.net private member .Sean.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ozyhibby View Post
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    I'd vote for Billy.


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    As would I, certainly one of the better posters on here
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  16. #135
    @hibs.net private member blackpoolhibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thecat23 View Post
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    I think maybe if you addressed him by his name there may be a chance he'd reply? We haven't agreed on many things for a long time but I do agree with most of the posts you have said on The Rangers investigation.

    I don't think you need to continue talking about Frank by saying the "other one." I've met Frank couple of times and he has the clubs best interests at heart and always happy to chat so I am surprised he's not really been on here. Tracey I do know better, and have a lot of time for if I'm honest. I'm just glad I'm not a fan rep that's for sure!
    I'd love to hear Frank tell me why he's failed to deliver what he said he would in this video, especially the bit 55 minutes in when asked what he could do better.

    https://www.facebook.com/HibernianFo...5148882917504/
    Last edited by blackpoolhibs; 13-09-2017 at 09:38 PM.

  17. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I know this isn't aimed at me, but I'll answer on behalf of myself anyway.

    I thought about it and quite fancied it.

    The truth is, I am a bit of an internet geek. I quite like debate on hibs.net, I quite like getting involved. It is a good platform with a lot of good debate, and I feel quite comfortable sticking my oar in, having an opinion, debating it, defending it and disagreeing with people from a position of anonymity. You can see a point that someone has made, pause for thought, gather your thoughts and post a reply as you see it. Some people may agree with your opinion, some people won't.

    This is tougher face to face. Thinking on the spot and responding to problems, concerns and issues in person takes a certain skill set, possibly different to those required over the net. That's why I wouldn't give Frank a kicking for his lack of contribution on hibs.net - the squabbles we have over the internet may not suit his skill set, he may not want to get involved in an arena where he might not do himself justice. Face to face, on the day - I'm sure that is where he is at his best. He's a well-known face and has been trusted by many to represent us, so he must be doing something right for a large number of people.

    The main reason I wouldn't stand - I think it is a thankless, impossible task. How on Earth are you meant to represent the Hibs support? We are a huge, diverse group, some reasoned and sensible, some utter bampots. It is literally impossible to do justice to the diversity and strength of opinion that exists amongst us. The "board position on EBTs" is such a topic. It is passionate, overly-emotional and very difficult. The fans reps are piggy in the middle, they'll have a lot more information than any of us to make a decision but have to represent our uninformed position to the board.

    I have sympathy for the fans reps, but only to a point, as surely they would have known this when they stood for election. They will have known exactly what they were getting themselves into. It is a position that is a constant ball ache and brings constant aggro. Ok, now it is EBTs. But it could have been relegation, non-promotion, the team on the park being cack, the Scottish Cup final aftermath, a ballsed-up new stand build etc etc etc.
    Take my hat off to you, Sir. Top post.

  18. #137
    @hibs.net private member Thecat23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by blackpoolhibs View Post
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    I'd love to hear Frank tell me why he's failed to deliver what he said he would in this video, especially the bit 55 minutes in when asked what he could do better.

    https://www.facebook.com/HibernianFo...5148882917504/
    I hadn't seen that before. I don't think you are asking to much for him to come on after his speech. I still think out of respect you can call him by his name though.

    Maybe someone who knows him could maybe help him out if he's struggling with the social media side of things. Face to face he's very easy to speak too and I like him. But if you stand up and make a promise it's best to keep that promise and try communicate with the fans, more so now than ever!

  19. #138
    @hibs.net private member hibbymick's Avatar
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    Thats the first time ive seen that video. Wasnt the most clever thing to ask Pat. Is that why he took himself out of the vote ?

  20. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by hibbymick View Post
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    Thats the first time ive seen that video. Wasnt the most clever thing to ask Pat. Is that why he took himself out of the vote ?
    Pat got slaughtered, verging on humiliation on here (almost made me want to sign up but was the wrong time for me) and on the bounce and on other social media. That's why he withdrew.

    In the Rangers case, the word transparency comes into place a lot of the time, wouldn't it be great if we could get a simple yes or no from the fans reps if they voted against any further investigation into the whole thing? They could be getting slaughtered having voted with the majority of the support in saying yes to an sfa enquiry. None of us know.

  21. #140
    @hibs.net private member Johnny Clash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigwheel View Post
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    Board decisions are made collectively...they should be fully supported by all board members after the event...I would be disappointed if a board colleague then shared their individual views - once the position is agreed , they should all support it

    That doesn't mean we couldn't have been given some updates along the way though . Equally, and perhaps more importantly, we should expect that they have sought and represented the views of Supporters at the. meetings. It's a key part of their role.

    I'm not expecting to agree with all decisions Hibs make - I do expect the fans reps to keep their commitment of regular updates after board meetings and consistent communications etc. This isn't there yet for me
    I don't disagree . Once a decision is made then normally everyone on that body would be expected to get behind it. However that does not mean that all decisions must be unanimous nor does it mean our elected representatives cannot communicate with their constituents. Decisions are made by a simple majority.

  22. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Firestarter View Post
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    Pat got slaughtered, verging on humiliation on here (almost made me want to sign up but was the wrong time for me) and on the bounce and on other social media. That's why he withdrew.

    In the Rangers case, the word transparency comes into place a lot of the time, wouldn't it be great if we could get a simple yes or no from the fans reps if they voted against any further investigation into the whole thing? They could be getting slaughtered having voted with the majority of the support in saying yes to an sfa enquiry. None of us know.
    Pat did not get "slaughtered" on the Bounce.

  23. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by ColinNish View Post
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    Pat did not get "slaughtered" on the Bounce.
    Tbf he didn't get slaughtered on here either. The person who raised what they believed to be important points with Pat Stanton at the hustings event at Sunnyside got a far harder time and far more abuse than Pat ever did.

    The whole situation was a bit bizarre. Some people clearly felt because he is who he is that it should have just been an uncontested procession. I was at the event at Sunnyside and it became quickly apparent that Pat was one of 2 or 3 candidates, and a fair few people asking questions as well, who didn't seem to really understand the role and performed poorly as a result.

    Situations like the current one are why I was a bit uncomfortable with Pats candidacy. It's bad enough that Frank and Tracey are getting personal grief at the moment, it would be even more shameful if it was being directed at a club legend.
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  24. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny Clash View Post
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    I don't disagree . Once a decision is made then normally everyone on that body would be expected to get behind it. However that does not mean that all decisions must be unanimous nor does it mean our elected representatives cannot communicate with their constituents. Decisions are made by a simple majority.
    Exactly, I've been in that position myself after arguing vehemently against something, then having to go out and support a position I didnt take. Its called collective responsibility and the only way to function coherently. If the policy is one that you cannot support - you resign. That's what the reps should have done, but instead we find that they apparently voted unanimously with the board. It's an untenable position.

  25. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    Tbf he didn't get slaughtered on here either. The person who raised what they believed to be important points with Pat Stanton at the hustings event at Sunnyside got a far harder time and far more abuse than Pat ever did.

    The whole situation was a bit bizarre. Some people clearly felt because he is who he is that it should have just been an uncontested procession. I was at the event at Sunnyside and it became quickly apparent that Pat was one of 2 or 3 candidates, and a fair few people asking questions as well, who didn't seem to really understand the role and performed poorly as a result.

    Situations like the current one are why I was a bit uncomfortable with Pats candidacy. It's bad enough that Frank and Tracey are getting personal grief at the moment, it would be even more shameful if it was being directed at a club legend.
    Some very good points made there PrettyBoy.

  26. #145
    I've not read through this whole thread, but surely the question regarding the reps revolves around whether the decision to issue the statement was unnanimous? The reps might well have voted against it, which IMO would have been the right thing to do, whilst still respecting that the majority decision was to issue the statement as it was. If the vote was indeed unnanimous, and the reps voted along with the rest of the board, in my opinion that is not representative of the majority of Hibs fans, and up to an extent raises the question of how relevant them being on the board is in the first place, but that is purely my opinion, and there are other issues where the reps can make a significant input on behalf of the fans. I suppose we'll never know.

  27. #146
    @hibs.net private member oldbutdim's Avatar
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    We do.

    It was unanimous.

  28. #147
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    Hi All,

    Frank and I unfortunately had to take a step back from social media and the whole situation due to some abuse we were receiving. We understand there are supporters who are angry with the statement and everyone is entitled to their opinions but personal abuse is unacceptable.

    Frank and I are happy to speak with anyone prior to the game on Saturday just let us know. Happy also if anyone wants to discuss over the phone. Email us your details and we will get in touch. I find these things are better face to face or by phone as posts on Social Media can often be misconstrued.

    What we would like to do is apologise for the silence after we told you a statement would be out and it wasn't. The delays were quite simply as stated in Monday's statement. We hadn't been gagged as some have suggested but didn't have anything concrete to tell you. Error of judgement on our part.

    If you want to discuss any other matters please do not hesitate to contact us. Our silence we feel has certainly undone a lot of good work we have put in with communication and we will work hard to restore that.

    For those who have questioned how Frank and I work - Frank and I speak several times a day and work as a team. Frank receives many calls from supporters, face to face and emails whereas because I work online I can deal with all the online queries as well as emails and face to face. This works well for us and think we compliment each other. We are always well aware of what the other is doing and dealing with.

    Our emails again are:

    fdougan@hibernianfc.co.uk
    tsmith@hibernianfc.co.uk



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  29. #148
    Administrator matty_f's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by traceyhibs View Post
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    Hi All,

    Frank and I unfortunately had to take a step back from social media and the whole situation due to some abuse we were receiving. We understand there are supporters who are angry with the statement and everyone is entitled to their opinions but personal abuse is unacceptable.

    Frank and I are happy to speak with anyone prior to the game on Saturday just let us know. Happy also if anyone wants to discuss over the phone. Email us your details and we will get in touch. I find these things are better face to face or by phone as posts on Social Media can often be misconstrued.

    What we would like to do is apologise for the silence after we told you a statement would be out and it wasn't. The delays were quite simply as stated in Monday's statement. We hadn't been gagged as some have suggested but didn't have anything concrete to tell you. Error of judgement on our part.

    If you want to discuss any other matters please do not hesitate to contact us. Our silence we feel has certainly undone a lot of good work we have put in with communication and we will work hard to restore that.

    For those who have questioned how Frank and I work - Frank and I speak several times a day and work as a team. Frank receives many calls from supporters, face to face and emails whereas because I work online I can deal with all the online queries as well as emails and face to face. This works well for us and think we compliment each other. We are always well aware of what the other is doing and dealing with.

    Our emails again are:

    fdougan@hibernianfc.co.uk
    tsmith@hibernianfc.co.uk



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Pretty shameful that you and Frank were being personally abused. Pathetic, really.
    http://hibscomebackison.blogspot.co.uk/ - Read my blog "So A Season Starts.. " - Updated TODAY 03/08/15

  30. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by traceyhibs View Post
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    Hi All,

    Frank and I unfortunately had to take a step back from social media and the whole situation due to some abuse we were receiving. We understand there are supporters who are angry with the statement and everyone is entitled to their opinions but personal abuse is unacceptable.

    Frank and I are happy to speak with anyone prior to the game on Saturday just let us know. Happy also if anyone wants to discuss over the phone. Email us your details and we will get in touch. I find these things are better face to face or by phone as posts on Social Media can often be misconstrued.

    What we would like to do is apologise for the silence after we told you a statement would be out and it wasn't. The delays were quite simply as stated in Monday's statement. We hadn't been gagged as some have suggested but didn't have anything concrete to tell you. Error of judgement on our part.

    If you want to discuss any other matters please do not hesitate to contact us. Our silence we feel has certainly undone a lot of good work we have put in with communication and we will work hard to restore that.

    For those who have questioned how Frank and I work - Frank and I speak several times a day and work as a team. Frank receives many calls from supporters, face to face and emails whereas because I work online I can deal with all the online queries as well as emails and face to face. This works well for us and think we compliment each other. We are always well aware of what the other is doing and dealing with.

    Our emails again are:

    fdougan@hibernianfc.co.uk
    tsmith@hibernianfc.co.uk



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Really poor that you and Frank are getting personal abuse regarding this. Hope it all does down quickly as it's totally out of order.
    I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women,. Suddenly, uncritically giving no thought to the pain it could bring. - Nick Hornby

  31. #150
    First Team Breakthrough
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Location
    Armadale
    Age
    42
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    165
    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    Really poor that you and Frank are getting personal abuse regarding this. Hope it all does down quickly as it's totally out of order.
    We get it but when it gets personal it's a bit much. Luckily have a thick skin. We have put ourselves out there so we no it's no breeze but felt it was best to take a step back and let people calm ( we know it's not going away) then hopefully we can talk to people and have more constructive conversations.




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