What should happen to honours won by Rangers in the EBT years?

[Pretty Boy]

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If the poll results in a vote in favour of stripping the titles, would the admins consider releasing a statement from Hibs.net similar to those released by Aberdeen and Dundee Utd fans?

Personally speaking I don't think we should.

We moderate the forum to make sure what is posted remains within the rules. That is basically the remit we have, along with the housekeeping that keeps the lights on. I don't think we have any mandate to speak on the sites users behalf. We are always keen to stress Hibs.net has no 'editorial policy' and releasing a statement about something not directly related to the site speaking on behalf of it's users goes against that.

My personal belief is that every title should be stripped and the champions for the year declared as vacant or void or similar.

[Onion]

Can you just imagine the reaction of Sevco, the SFA and the WC media today if Hibs or Aberdeen found an illegal method of raising huge amounts of cash, recruited players way beyond their usual level and won a chunk of trophies and Euro money - denying Sevco and their fans in the process ? There would be an outcry and demand for the harshest of punishments - and rightly so.

The SFA / SPFL, Sevco and media seem to think there's some kind of a statute or limitations on ill-gotten gains. "Get away with it long enough and the proceeds are your's" !

I've no issue with Sevco hanging onto all the titles won by the departed Rangers FC, as long as they pay back every single penny of the £45 Million that Old Co have now been deemed to owe the tax payers. Failing that, Sevco has no right to the titles won in the tax-cheating years.

[CropleyWasGod]

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As far as the league goes, in 2005 Rangers finished with 93 points, Celtic were second with 92, and the third-placed team had 61. Are you both arguing that it's impossible to assess who should be awarded the league title that year if (say) Rangers' results are all voided?

Agreed the argument for awarding titles in cup competitions is muddier - but Ben Johnson going through a heat at someone else's expense is similar in principle to Rangers knocking someone out in an early round of the cup.

Cycling situation is more complicated than Ben Johnson's to the extent that if the team leader of a very strong team (say Sky) is disqualified early enough in the race the team will adopt a new leader and work for him, and the podium may well look different as a result of an early disqualification. But except in very rare one-off cases (coincidentally the final day of the 2005 season) fitba teams do not collude like the members of a cycling team (throughout a race) or indeed like (temporarily during a race) whole cycling teams.

Armstrong's Tour de France wins were not voided because of the way that cycling teams operate during races. They were not re-allocated because it was known that doping was systemic in the sport throughout Armstrong's reign.

McQuaid:
“The podium of those tours, second and third, by and large a lot of them either have been convicted of doping some way or another, or would be suspected in terms of doping,” he said. “If it’s a question that we would declare that era as a black era, then I’m not afraid to do so.”

It is not difficult to see their problem. For three of Armstrong’s Tour de France wins you would have to promote Jan Ullrich, who was retrospectively banned for drug offences by the CAS last year and stripped of all of his titles since 2005. In 2003, if you promoted Ullrich to winner that year, the next two riders on the podium would be drug cheats Alexandre Vinokourov and Tyler Hamilton.

There was no systemic abuse of dual contracts in Scottish fitba during the EBT years. There's imo no good reason other than general anti-OF sentiment (which I do count as good, though not a reason) for withholding the 2005 league title from Celtc. If, however, Celtc argue that they do not want it under the circumstances, then void it.

All fair points, but I think the issue goes beyond just "who should have won?" It also begs the question "who should have come second, third etc?". I don't think that we could assume a shuffling-up of places. At the very least, there would have to be a recalculation of placings based on a removal of the RFC games...or a 3-0 win...or....or...or.





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[blackpoolhibs]

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The SFA just wont do it. Will never happen.

Exactly, and they will never be liquidated or made to join as a new club at the bottom tier either.


Its attitudes like that, that they and the SFA want so they can just sweep it all under the carpet.

I'm glad there are folk with more heart and principles than you, who will take the time and effort to try and force through justice for all those fans who paid through either season tickets or pay at the gate prices to watch their team play against a team who were steroided up the the neck, and cheated their way to trophies they didnt deserve, and certainly don't deserve to keep.

[Ozyhibby]

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Personally speaking I don't think we should.

We moderate the forum to make sure what is posted remains within the rules. That is basically the remit we have, along with the housekeeping that keeps the lights on. I don't think we have any mandate to speak on the sites users behalf. We are always keen to stress Hibs.net has no 'editorial policy' and releasing a statement about something not directly related to the site speaking on behalf of it's users goes against that.

My personal belief is that every title should be stripped and the champions for the year declared as vacant or void or similar.

No worries. I was aware that Hibs.net had never really done anything like that before. Will try contact the fans reps although I haven't spotted them on here since the election.


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[Keith_M]

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90% of Hibs fans on here you mean and even then who's to say they are all Hibs fans? I take it brother Michael had a vote.

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I doubt Michael's a mason gail

Ah, so it's the (in)famous Gail under a new name.

That makes a lot of sense, cheers.


What would he/she know about the views of Hibs Fans.

[blackpoolhibs]

Someone posted yesterday about the time we finished third, a few points behind rangers. Who's to say if we'd finished 2nd and taken the money it results in, and played in the champions league qualifiers, it could have made us enough money to have made us a team much better we'd have been consistent challengers for a European place?

Maybe even enough to stop us being relegated?

[MKHIBEE]

The titles should be left vacant. If The Rangers insist they are the same club they should be made to pay back every penny of prize money they were given. With interest. Immediately.

[Spike Mandela]

I think so much time has passed that awarding of titles or cups to other clubs is hollow and worthless.

I prefer the *asterisk approach. All titles and cups voided in the history books with acknowledgement from the authorities that these years were tainted by large scale tax evasion and improperly registered players by Rangers Football Club.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Someone posted yesterday about the time we finished third, a few points behind rangers. Who's to say if we'd finished 2nd and taken the money it results in, and played in the champions league qualifiers, it could have made us enough money to have made us a team much better we'd have been consistent challengers for a European place?

Maybe even enough to stop us being relegated?

That's when the worms start to come out of the can.

We would have a moral right to take action against someone. IIRC, we aren't allowed to sue the league. Even if we could, we would effectively suing ourselves. So would we sue the Oldco and end up getting 5p in the £? Or is that a football debt that should be paid first?

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[blackpoolhibs]

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The titles should be left vacant. If The Rangers insist they are the same club they should be made to pay back every penny of prize money they were given. With interest. Immediately.

Never understood that argument, if i robbed a bank and was caught, i wouldn't expect to get off with it if i paid the money back.

[lapsedhibee]

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All fair points, but I think the issue goes beyond just "who should have won?" It also begs the question "who should have come second, third etc?". I don't think that we could assume a shuffling-up of places. At the very least, there would have to be a recalculation of placings based on a removal of the RFC games...or a 3-0 win...or....or...or.

Don't think there's that many or ... or ... or ... s. Unless my maths/logic is severely skew-whiff, removing RFC games or counting them as 3-0 defeats would produce exactly the same outcome as far as a new league table is concerned. Do either and I don't see what would be unfair about it. Hibs might not be able to successfully argue in a court that oldhun is due us £blablabla for denying us a shot at winning the CL in 2005-2006, but giving the title to Celtc wouldn't be a thing that prevents that argument succeeding.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Don't think there's that many or ... or ... or ... s. Unless my maths/logic is severely skew-whiff, removing RFC games or counting them as 3-0 defeats would produce exactly the same outcome as far as a new league table is concerned. Do either and I don't see what would be unfair about it. Hibs might not be able to successfully argue in a court that oldhun is due us £blablabla for denying us a shot at winning the CL in 2005-2006, but giving the title to Celtc wouldn't be a thing that prevents that argument succeeding.

Haven't checked the results obviously, but a club that had previously "lost" 4 times to Rangers would gain 12 points. That might take them above another club who had already beaten them once, and who therefore only gain 9 points

And then theres the issue of the split. A club that finished 7th, ...how would we calculate their results post-split? And would those recalculations affect relegation?

And then there's the issue of RFC's notional relegation because they should finish bottom.

go on.... There's no game today...

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[Ozyhibby]

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Haven't checked the results obviously, but a club that had previously "lost" 4 times to Rangers would gain 12 points. That might take them above another club who had already beaten them once, and who therefore only gain 9 points

And then theres the issue of the split. A club that finished 7th, ...how would we calculate their results post-split? And would those recalculations affect relegation?

And then there's the issue of RFC's notional relegation because they should finish bottom.

go on.... There's no game today...

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It was not an EBT year but the year we finished 3rd behind Rangers and Motherwell would have resulted in us winning the league if all Rangers results had to be awarded as 3-0 to opponents.
I'm in favour of voiding the leagues during the EBT years.


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[ancient hibee]

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Haven't checked the results obviously, but a club that had previously "lost" 4 times to Rangers would gain 12 points. That might take them above another club who had already beaten them once, and who therefore only gain 9 points

And then theres the issue of the split. A club that finished 7th, ...how would we calculate their results post-split? And would those recalculations affect relegation?

And then there's the issue of RFC's notional relegation because they should finish bottom.

go on.... There's no game today...

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Don't try and teach arithmetic on here.You're on a loser.

[GreenArmyyy!]

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No worries. I was aware that Hibs.net had never really done anything like that before. Will try contact the fans reps although I haven't spotted them on here since the election.


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Tracey especially has spent alot of time in the forums since the election.

[CropleyWasGod]

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Don't try and teach arithmetic on here.You're on a loser.

Hey...I'm an accountant to trade. I can make any 2 numbers add to anything you want

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[Ozyhibby]

Graham Spiers in the Times this morning.


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[Bristolhibby]

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I think so much time has passed that awarding of titles or cups to other clubs is hollow and worthless.

I prefer the *asterisk approach. All titles and cups voided in the history books with acknowledgement from the authorities that these years were tainted by large scale tax evasion and improperly registered players by Rangers Football Club.

This. Including (and it's a real shame to the gorgeous old lady), but engraving over the word "Rangers" on the Scottish Cup plinth for those years.

It makes a statement.

J

[Kojock]

Does anyone else see the irony here. A club that has as its focal point the queen and all things British devises a scheme to avoid paying tax to that institution. Much needed tax that could have funded our HM Forces, health service and education. You couldn't make it up. Don't care about stripping titles except for the knighthood awarded to that charlatan David Murray.

[Bostonhibby]

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Does anyone else see the irony here. A club that has as its focal point the queen and all things British devises a scheme to avoid paying tax to that institution. Much needed tax that could have funded our HM Forces, health service and education. You couldn't make it up. Don't care about stripping titles except for the knighthood awarded to that charlatan David Murray.

Irony indeed.

But they made up for it when they had the armed forces on the pitch at one of their bigot fests a few years ago didn't they?!

Sadly a few of them seemed to enjoy being there.

"Loyal" my erse. Cheated their majesties revenue exactly as you describe.

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[MKHIBEE]

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Never understood that argument, if i robbed a bank and was caught, i wouldn't expect to get off with it if i paid the money back.

Do you think that leaving the titles vacant is allowing Oldco to "get off" ? I would happily make the present regime responsible for any wrongdoings of the Oldco, even up.to hammering them for failing to save me from a beating from grown men at Ibrox over 40 years ago.( I was 15)

[heretoday]

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Doesn't bother me really. Lost interest in the Rangers saga a long time ago and the eyes glaze over when the subject raises it's head. Has no bearing on us really.

Too right. Put asterisks in the record books against each one of their dubious title wins and let's get on with next season.
The game in Scotland is in a bad enough way without further disembowelment.

[The Falcon]

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Does anyone else see the irony here. A club that has as its focal point the queen and all things British devises a scheme to avoid paying tax to that institution. Much needed tax that could have funded our HM Forces, health service and education. You couldn't make it up. Don't care about stripping titles except for the knighthood awarded to that charlatan David Murray.

Or the fact that Sickbag is calling them cheats.....

[Ozyhibby]

http://club1872.co.uk/news/club-1872...0FhquU.twitter


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[oldbutdim]

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http://club1872.co.uk/news/club-1872...0FhquU.twitter


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Blimey!

[Velma Dinkley]

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http://club1872.co.uk/news/club-1872...0FhquU.twitter


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The The Rangers fans are allergic to reality.

[blackpoolhibs]

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Do you think that leaving the titles vacant is allowing Oldco to "get off" ? I would happily make the present regime responsible for any wrongdoings of the Oldco, even up.to hammering them for failing to save me from a beating from grown men at Ibrox over 40 years ago.( I was 15)

It's not really about anyone getting off, it's about justice, and justice is cheats ANY cheat should have whatever they have won while cheating stripped from the record books.

Doing nothing is just condoning it, i'm not bothered either if the titles are stripped that the teams who finished behind them get the titles.

That is too hard to judge, and an asterisk against the year and a reason for no winner would suffice.

Justice will have been served if that happened, anything less is not justice.

[MKHIBEE]

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It's not really about anyone getting off, it's about justice, and justice is cheats ANY cheat should have whatever they have won while cheating stripped from the record books.

Doing nothing is just condoning it, i'm not bothered either if the titles are stripped that the teams who finished behind them get the titles.

That is too hard to judge, and an asterisk against the year and a reason for no winner would suffice.

Justice will have been served if that happened, anything less is not justice.

Thats fair enough, maybe my understanding of leaving the titles vacant was vague. I hadn't intended to call for nothing to be done, just that no recognition should be given to the title winners in question.

[Ozyhibby]

The poll at the top of the thread is still showing a whopping 89% in favour of stripping the titles.
Hibs fans firmly behind justice it would appear.


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