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  1. #121
    Gentleman of Leisure Doddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    Agree about the virtue signalling attached to the whole issue, Angela Merkel perhaps being a recent example.

    But I wonder if you may in this part of your post be fusing the issues of immigration with religious intolerance. It's one thing to say immigration must be controlled, numbers must be monitored, services are being stretched, etc. And another to say immigration isn't a problem but Islam is. I personally don't hear peeps getting called Nazis for expressing a desire to monitor immigration numbers more closely. The jibes on this thread followed a post which clearly suggested that immigration is not a problem but muslim immigrants are. A different kettle of worms imo.

    I don't see how in the present circumstances one can divorce the question of border control and the control of immigration from the question of racial intolerance. I don't think religious intolerance is a major problem right now - not, that is, if we're thinking of adherents of one religion seeking to persecute adherents of another. The intolerance I encounter right now comes from determined, committed atheists, who strangely enough seem to find no problem attacking Christianity but don't seem to find the same willingness to have a go at Islam. It seems it's OK to make jokes about Jesus, but doing the same about Mohammed will get you into deep doo-doo. (I wouldn't like to accuse the atheists of cowardice in the face of probable accusations of racism - and threat of a fatwa - but that thought does occasionally occur to me.)

    I would say here that it's my firm opinion that anyone who disrespects another person's faith discredits his own to a much greater degree. We should be able to disagree with someone without disrespecting them, and resorting to outright persecution of those who believe differently from oneself rather suggests that one isn't very secure or convinced of the rightness of one's own beliefs. I think I've already made it clear that Trumpetist singling out of one group of people for exclusion alone isn't a position I hold in any way.

    As for immigration, I believe we need more control - responsible, even-handed informed control. What sets me off are the people who view any suggestion of any degree of more efficient regulation as the first step to a police state.


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  3. #122
    Gentleman of Leisure Doddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    It's probably a sign of the times when people who are concerned about the welfare of fellow human beings and are willing to accept refugees whether they be economic or those seeking refuge from war and persecution are labelled as soft liberal lefties. It's an even sadder reflection on our christian shaped society when we start asking ourselves who is worthy of help and who is responsible for helping. I don't profess to know much about the christian bible but I remember the story of the good Samaritan, I'm in no way religious but the message makes sense no matter what you believe.

    You say you're in no way religious, yet you hold up Christian values as the underpinning of our society?

    Refugees are those who are seeking safety and shelter from war and persecution. Their reception in this country has been compromised by the shambles successive governments have made of border controls.

    Economic migrants are a different issue, and in their case I think it's only reasonable that the UK should question whether their admission would harm or benefit the country as a whole.

    No government has a mandate to harm its own citizens for the benefit of foreign citizens. The first responsibility of any government is the defence and nurture of its own citizens.

    The only exception to that is surely the case of refugees from war and political or religious persecution, but that exception is absolute.

    Meeting the immediate urgent needs of one person, or even one family, as Jesus teaches His disciples in the parable of the Good Samaritan, is one thing. the Samaritan supplies the man's needs from his own pocket; he takes full personal responsibility for the man's welfare, and he see the thing through to the end involving no one else in any cost or expenditure. That's my responsibility to the man or woman I meet who needs help. I have no problem with that.

    But the government of this country has a much greater and more complex responsibility to maintain and protect the people of this country from threats foreign and domestic - dangers and damage from outside and from within. That's a different issue, and one that many on the left of politics here are unwilling to confront honestly.

    It's after three - much, much too late for an auld man like me. I'll see you in the morning.


    "Once one accepts that one has bear-hugged full-blown barking there is great comfort in the bright lights and noises of the wibble-wibble show ..."

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by lapsedhibee View Post
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    Agree about the virtue signalling attached to the whole issue, Angela Merkel perhaps being a recent example.

    But I wonder if you may in this part of your post be fusing the issues of immigration with religious intolerance. It's one thing to say immigration must be controlled, numbers must be monitored, services are being stretched, etc. And another to say immigration isn't a problem but Islam is. I personally don't hear peeps getting called Nazis for expressing a desire to monitor immigration numbers more closely. The jibes on this thread followed a post which clearly suggested that immigration is not a problem but muslim immigrants are. A different kettle of worms imo.
    it was me that made the post , i did not make the post because i dont like muslims , its because in my opinion there are too many here , making up a now sizable chunk of the population of this country , and alot of them breed like rabbits . Even curbing the number coming in .. their numbers will continue to grow at a much faster rate than any other sections of our society . Im not intolerant of the ones who are here , i just think letting millions more in is not a particularly great idea .

  5. #124
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    it was me that made the post , i did not make the post because i dont like muslims , its because in my opinion there are too many here , making up a now sizable chunk of the population of this country , and alot of them breed like rabbits . Even curbing the number coming in .. their numbers will continue to grow at a much faster rate than any other sections of our society . Im not intolerant of the ones who are here , i just think letting millions more in is not a particularly great idea .
    Substitute the word "muslims" with "Irish" in the late 19th Century, and "blacks" in the mid-20th century. It's the same argument.

    What did those groups do to British society and culture, other than enrich and diversify it?

    Out of interest, what is the birth rate amongst Muslims?

  6. #125
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    it was me that made the post , i did not make the post because i dont like muslims , its because in my opinion there are too many here , making up a now sizable chunk of the population of this country , and alot of them breed like rabbits . Even curbing the number coming in .. their numbers will continue to grow at a much faster rate than any other sections of our society . Im not intolerant of the ones who are here , i just think letting millions more in is not a particularly great idea .


    Where are you getting that figure?

    The latest estimate released is that total net migration to the UK in the year ending December 2016 was 248,000 total not muslims
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    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Substitute the word "muslims" with "Irish" in the late 19th Century, and "blacks" in the mid-20th century. It's the same argument.

    What did those groups do to British society and culture, other than enrich and diversify it?

    Out of interest, what is the birth rate amongst Muslims?
    Rabbitish... apparently.

  8. #127
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    and alot of them breed like rabbits .
    This is of course humanly impossible.

    According to the proceedings of the New Zealand Ecological Society from 1977, a field study of wild rabbits showed an average of 29.4 babies per female rabbit during one breeding season (they are generally fertile for ~243 days per year, basically the non-cold months). They are having litters of around 5.3 babies per litter and a bit over 5 litters per season (8-9 month season, so they have ~60% of the litters they could have).

    Just saying.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  9. #128
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doddie View Post
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    You say you're in no way religious, yet you hold up Christian values as the underpinning of our society?

    Refugees are those who are seeking safety and shelter from war and persecution. Their reception in this country has been compromised by the shambles successive governments have made of border controls.

    Economic migrants are a different issue, and in their case I think it's only reasonable that the UK should question whether their admission would harm or benefit the country as a whole.

    No government has a mandate to harm its own citizens for the benefit of foreign citizens. The first responsibility of any government is the defence and nurture of its own citizens.

    The only exception to that is surely the case of refugees from war and political or religious persecution, but that exception is absolute.

    Meeting the immediate urgent needs of one person, or even one family, as Jesus teaches His disciples in the parable of the Good Samaritan, is one thing. the Samaritan supplies the man's needs from his own pocket; he takes full personal responsibility for the man's welfare, and he see the thing through to the end involving no one else in any cost or expenditure. That's my responsibility to the man or woman I meet who needs help. I have no problem with that.

    But the government of this country has a much greater and more complex responsibility to maintain and protect the people of this country from threats foreign and domestic - dangers and damage from outside and from within. That's a different issue, and one that many on the left of politics here are unwilling to confront honestly.

    It's after three - much, much too late for an auld man like me. I'll see you in the morning.
    I like to think of myself as a christian atheist, culturally I'm christian because the society I grew up in has it's roots in christianity and atheist because I don't believe in the supernatural mumbo jumbo associated with it.

    You make valid points and all worth a discussion on their own, however the post that invoked Godwin's law 3 times and the source of your mirth is something that is in my view odious and only worthy of scorn. Calls to single out a race, religion or creed have dark connotations that cannot be allowed to become "Salonfähig" as the Germans (who know what they're talking about) would say.

  10. #129
    Gentleman of Leisure Doddie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I like to think of myself as a christian atheist, culturally I'm christian because the society I grew up in has it's roots in christianity and atheist because I don't believe in the supernatural mumbo jumbo associated with it.

    You make valid points and all worth a discussion on their own, however the post that invoked Godwin's law 3 times and the source of your mirth is something that is in my view odious and only worthy of scorn. Calls to single out a race, religion or creed have dark connotations that cannot be allowed to become "Salonfähig" as the Germans (who know what they're talking about) would say.

    Actually, the society you and I grew up in was not and is not Christian - it's better defined as post-Enlightenment agnostic.

    The last time Christianity really influenced British law and society would be in the early 19th century - Wilberforce, Shaftesbuy and the Clapham Sect, the Factory Acts and the abolition of slavery.

    But I do take your point.

    I haven't ever defended the view that provoked the invocation of Godwin's Law. Generalising about an ethnic or racial community with a view to discriminating against them is a method employed by racists and totalitarians throughout history - and I mean totalitarians of both left and right.

    Specious comparisons between current events and the Third Reich, BTW, can be a very effective way of killing discussion when things are going hard against one - I believe that that was the reason Godwin formulated his Law in the first place, to prevent people losing the argument coming out with stuff like, "Well, of course, your friend Josef Goebbels would be in full agreement with THAT, wouldn't he?"

    And at the risk of being called on Godwin's Law myself, it is a fact that antisemitism and the 'stab in the back' nonsense did indeed become "Salonfähig" in the Germany of the Weimar Republic, and THAT was a major factor in the descent of that nation into the horrors of racist militaristic totalitarianism. So your point is a good one, and I apologise for treating a very serious point with inappropriate levity.
    Last edited by Doddie; 12-07-2017 at 08:54 PM.


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