Macron

[Ozyhibby]

https://capx.co/even-marx-understood...-of-factories/


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[WhileTheChief..]

It's great taking the moral high ground but everyone would be complaining like mad if the prices shot up.

I'm not talking Hibs strips here, I'm taking about consumer goods in general.

Asda and Tesco can sell a pair of jeans for under a fiver. No chance the folk that make them are receiving a decent wage.

One of the perks of living in a mature economy I guess.

[1van Sprou7e]

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https://capx.co/even-marx-understood...-of-factories/


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This is just an article claiming that the only way to achieve decent wages is by having competing corporations drive up wages. Doesn't really give any reason as to why decent wages aren't possible from the beginning in a non-capitalist system

[superfurryhibby]

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It's great taking the moral high ground but everyone would be complaining like mad if the prices shot up.

I'm not talking Hibs strips here, I'm taking about consumer goods in general.

Asda and Tesco can sell a pair of jeans for under a fiver. No chance the folk that make them are receiving a decent wage.

One of the perks of living in a mature economy I guess.

Makes you wnder who makes all the profit from a 40 quid football top ( gyessing the price a little here)?
Struggling to see the connection between the final cost to the consumer and production costs, we are being screwed senseless anyway.

I'm old enough to remember when companies like Levis, Lee and Wrangler all made clothing in Scotland. Imagine that, reduction of carbon footprint and creating employment in places where you market your product.....

[ian cruise]

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Makes you wnder who makes all the profit from a 40 quid football top ( gyessing the price a little here)?
Struggling to see the connection between the final cost to the consumer and production costs, we are being screwed senseless anyway.

I'm old enough to remember when companies like Levis, Lee and Wrangler all made clothing in Scotland. Imagine that, reduction of carbon footprint and creating employment in places where you market your product.....

Interesting point. There's a very good manufacturer of cycling clothing called Endura, be interesting if a Scottish club went to them to see if they fancied a unique tie in and see how it worked out for both financially.

Part of the problem I would guess is there is a younger generation who want Nike, Puma etc on their kit instead of a smaller, less well-known brand.

[Ozyhibby]

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Interesting point. There's a very good manufacturer of cycling clothing called Endura, be interesting if a Scottish club went to them to see if they fancied a unique tie in and see how it worked out for both financially.

Part of the problem I would guess is there is a younger generation who want Nike, Puma etc on their kit instead of a smaller, less well-known brand.

I hadn't heard of Macron until recently.


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[hibsbollah]

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There is also an argument that the sweatshops represent progress from what went before. China is a lot richer now as a result of those sweatshops than it was 25 years ago. As far as eliminating poverty goes, the Chinese government over the last 25 years is probably the most successful in history.


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Statistically, South Korea 1960-1990 wins the most successful poverty reduction. Coming out of wartime makes it a lot easier. But that also depends how much you believe in trickle-down economics. Cuba under Castro also has a good shout.

Agree with the other comments that all the big manufacturers will use sweat shop labour at some point in the process.

[Ozyhibby]

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Makes you wnder who makes all the profit from a 40 quid football top ( gyessing the price a little here)?
Struggling to see the connection between the final cost to the consumer and production costs, we are being screwed senseless anyway.

I'm old enough to remember when companies like Levis, Lee and Wrangler all made clothing in Scotland. Imagine that, reduction of carbon footprint and creating employment in places where you market your product.....

The company in China that makes iPhones gets 5USD a phone but it retails at 650USD. Production costs and price have long since been divorced.
When we made jeans here they were a lot more expensive to buy than they are now.


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[1van Sprou7e]

For anyone wondering how to get cheap clothes in a slightly more ethical way you can find some interesting stuff at second hand shops, co-ops and charities

[Ozyhibby]

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For anyone wondering how to get cheap clothes in a slightly more ethical way you can find some interesting stuff at second hand shops, co-ops and charities

What's unethical about giving your money to Chinese people?


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[ian cruise]

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I hadn't heard of Macron until recently.


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Agree they're not a big name but they have over the last few years become a bit more established and provide kit for a good number of teams. I may be doing you a disservice but I'm guessing you fall out with the age brackets I was assuming are influenced by the brand (I do too if it any consolation). I was meaning more teens and early twenties who are probably a bit more brand driven than some older fans who buy a Hibs top because it's our team.

[1van Sprou7e]

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What's unethical about giving your money to Chinese people?


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Hardly any of that money is going to China, and even less is going to the working class in China. An huge amount of that money is just going straight into the pockets of people who already have too much money to know what to do with, whether they're in China or in the West somewhere

And anyway all major manufacturers/producers have unethical practices. Not saying co-ops and charities are perfect but surely it's not difficult to realise that it's more ethical to buy your clothes from these kinds of places

[Ozyhibby]

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Hardly any of that money is going to China, and even less is going to the working class in China. An huge amount of that money is just going straight into the pockets of people who already have too much money to know what to do with, whether they're in China or in the West somewhere

And anyway all major manufacturers/producers have unethical practices. Not saying co-ops and charities are perfect but surely it's not difficult to realise that it's more ethical to buy your clothes from these kinds of places

The working class of China is very much getting richer. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that?
I'm not sure what's so ethical about the co-op? Anytime I've been in one their prices seem a lot higher that tesco, sainsburys etc. If that is so they can give more money to farmers at the expense of struggling families buying their groceries then I'm not sure that seems very ethical to me.


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[CropleyWasGod]

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The working class of China is very much getting richer. I'm not sure how anyone can dispute that?
I'm not sure what's so ethical about the co-op? Anytime I've been in one their prices seem a lot higher that tesco, sainsburys etc. If that is so they can give more money to farmers at the expense of struggling families buying their groceries then I'm not sure that seems very ethical to me.


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Think he was meaning co-operative organisations rather than the Co-Op....

[hibee]

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Hardly any of that money is going to China, and even less is going to the working class in China. An huge amount of that money is just going straight into the pockets of people who already have too much money to know what to do with, whether they're in China or in the West somewhere

And anyway all major manufacturers/producers have unethical practices. Not saying co-ops and charities are perfect but surely it's not difficult to realise that it's more ethical to buy your clothes from these kinds of places

How much of the money spent on second hand clothes in a charity shop actually goes to those who need it though when they pay their top staff £300,000 per year?

The clothes could still have come from a Chinese sweatshop anyway so does it really matter where you buy them.

[cocteautwin]

I live and work in China and I have my own business sourcing textiles and selling around the world. The main factory I work with has workers from all around China. They get paid piece rate and live in a level of accommodation what might be similar to a student hall of residence in the UK. They all have their own small rooms with air con and a tv and their take home pay is around £700 per month (at current exchange rates). On this salary they can afford to send a fair bit of it home to their families and have a decent standard of living. Certainly a better standard of living than a lot of people living on some crappy council estate in the UK on benefits struggling to meet their next Sky payments or scrabbling down the back of their sofa for a few pennies to make up the price of a packet of fags.

The suggestion that all these people are akin to slaves is quite ridiculous. They can walk away from these jobs at any point. The alternative for a lot of these workers would be working in a field for a few quid a day or for the young women, perhaps a life of prostitution.

If there’s 135 workers for Macron in Tianjin that will probably include all the production workers as well as the design team, admin etc. It really doesn’t take long to churn out a football top for a hemmer – they can probably get through 200pcs a day x 50 hemmers = 10,000 football tops a day. No need to outsource I reckon, although at this time of the year they might need to outsource due to all the new designs coming out from all the clubs.

I’m sure there are some pretty poor conditions in some of the factories here but I know, generally, the conditions are worse in places like Vietnam, Bangladesh etc.

Not sure what the point of my post is – just to give a little more info on what conditions are like, not here to start an argument. It’s not as bad as you might think (although there will be some bad apples in the pot).

[Beefster]

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For anyone wondering how to get cheap clothes in a slightly more ethical way you can find some interesting stuff at second hand shops, co-ops and charities

Unless they refuse stuff that was made in Asia, I'm not sure how it's more ethical other than some hipsters easing their guilt by donating to charity at the same time as buying their retro leather coat.

[ian cruise]

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I live and work in China and I have my own business sourcing textiles and selling around the world. The main factory I work with has workers from all around China. They get paid piece rate and live in a level of accommodation what might be similar to a student hall of residence in the UK. They all have their own small rooms with air con and a tv and their take home pay is around £700 per month (at current exchange rates). On this salary they can afford to send a fair bit of it home to their families and have a decent standard of living. Certainly a better standard of living than a lot of people living on some crappy council estate in the UK on benefits struggling to meet their next Sky payments or scrabbling down the back of their sofa for a few pennies to make up the price of a packet of fags.

The suggestion that all these people are akin to slaves is quite ridiculous. They can walk away from these jobs at any point. The alternative for a lot of these workers would be working in a field for a few quid a day or for the young women, perhaps a life of prostitution.

If there’s 135 workers for Macron in Tianjin that will probably include all the production workers as well as the design team, admin etc. It really doesn’t take long to churn out a football top for a hemmer – they can probably get through 200pcs a day x 50 hemmers = 10,000 football tops a day. No need to outsource I reckon, although at this time of the year they might need to outsource due to all the new designs coming out from all the clubs.

I’m sure there are some pretty poor conditions in some of the factories here but I know, generally, the conditions are worse in places like Vietnam, Bangladesh etc.

Not sure what the point of my post is – just to give a little more info on what conditions are like, not here to start an argument. It’s not as bad as you might think (although there will be some bad apples in the pot).

Glad you shared the detail, always interesting from someone who has or is actually involved. As you say it's probably not ideal but it could be a lot worse and certainly doesn't sound like slave labour. There are plenty in the UK who are also living and working in terrible conditions so maybe we shouldn't be so quick to criticise.

We would all like much better living and working conditions for all but it's not a quick fix and hopefully these things are improving. Main problem is that while large corporations (not Macron to best of my knowledge) are so driven by maximum profit they will take liberties with workers rights, pay and safety. That is taking this conversation right in to Holy Ground territory though....

[Ozyhibby]

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I live and work in China and I have my own business sourcing textiles and selling around the world. The main factory I work with has workers from all around China. They get paid piece rate and live in a level of accommodation what might be similar to a student hall of residence in the UK. They all have their own small rooms with air con and a tv and their take home pay is around £700 per month (at current exchange rates). On this salary they can afford to send a fair bit of it home to their families and have a decent standard of living. Certainly a better standard of living than a lot of people living on some crappy council estate in the UK on benefits struggling to meet their next Sky payments or scrabbling down the back of their sofa for a few pennies to make up the price of a packet of fags.

The suggestion that all these people are akin to slaves is quite ridiculous. They can walk away from these jobs at any point. The alternative for a lot of these workers would be working in a field for a few quid a day or for the young women, perhaps a life of prostitution.

If there’s 135 workers for Macron in Tianjin that will probably include all the production workers as well as the design team, admin etc. It really doesn’t take long to churn out a football top for a hemmer – they can probably get through 200pcs a day x 50 hemmers = 10,000 football tops a day. No need to outsource I reckon, although at this time of the year they might need to outsource due to all the new designs coming out from all the clubs.

I’m sure there are some pretty poor conditions in some of the factories here but I know, generally, the conditions are worse in places like Vietnam, Bangladesh etc.

Not sure what the point of my post is – just to give a little more info on what conditions are like, not here to start an argument. It’s not as bad as you might think (although there will be some bad apples in the pot).

Thanks for sharing. Sounds like a win-win situation. Good jobs for Chinese people, cheap clothes for us. Everyone is happy.


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[1van Sprou7e]

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Unless they refuse stuff that was made in Asia, I'm not sure how it's more ethical other than some hipsters easing their guilt by donating to charity at the same time as buying their retro leather coat.

Once the clothes are in the charity shop it doesn't matter as much where they came from and how they were made. The big companies have already been paid for the item and now the shop is recycling it to raise money for a good cause.

[BullsCloseHibs]

Stone Island is made in sweat shops

(mind you, who wears it these days, it looks trash-chav)

[Northern Hibby]

Really fancy an away style training top for the gym, I can't do the FKW thing 😂

[Brightside]

I wish the season would start

[FilipinoHibs]

Any job would improve the life of Asia's poor. These factory jobs are luxury compared to what I have seen in India and the Philippines over the last three years. Shop worker in Philippines paid £3 a day for 12 hour shift. Two days off a month. 7 days annual leave a year. Or go and work as maid for £150 a month. Have no days off for two years. Get home to see your chikdren for one week a year.

[Ozyhibby]

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Any job would improve the life of Asia's poor. These factory jobs are luxury compared to what I have seen in India and the Philippines over the last three years. Shop worker in Philippines paid £3 a day for 12 hour shift. Two days off a month. 7 days annual leave a year. Or go and work as maid for £150 a month. Have no days off for two years. Get home to see your chikdren for one week a year.

I'm beginning to feel guilty about not buying more clothes.


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