Hearts' New Stand Thread (Merged)

[CropleyWasGod]

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There's very little doubt in my mind that Hearts should certainly have plunged into liquidation and there was a certain dubiety that they were put into administration instead, however, we've owned them for the last few years and long may it continue. Eight in a row and counting.

They weren't put into administration "instead" of liquidation. There was no dubiety about their going into administration. That was absolutely the correct and legal thing to do.

What the issue is, as GG has alluded to, is whether liquidation should have followed.


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[greenginger]

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... but ... but ... they're a city institution, a national treasure, have copyright on the best stadium atmosphere, own a memorial to the war they fought and won single-handedly, can see the top of the castle from the stand roof, are beloved by Alex Salmond, make the third biggest chips in Scotland, employ the loveable Karl Sclafferty and, in any case, they're the big team. Why shouldn't they be above nonsense like laws and natural justice?

Yeah, above the law it would seem.

The administrator , Bryan Jackson left BDO shortly after the completion of the Club's administration and got a job with the accountancy firm Johnston Carmichael in Melville Street.

Johnston Carmichael are Heart's auditors.

[Argylehibby]

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'The club owns Edinburgh's famous War Memorial at the Haymarket junction in west central Edinburgh'


Who the **** wants to own a War Memorial?? Would it not be more charitable to gift it to the people of Edinburgh or something?

If they own it I assume they pay for its maintenance etc.?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Its should not have been required for the Ukio Bank to oppose the offer. They were a " connected " creditor to HOMFC through Vlad being the majority share holder in the Bank and his son being chairman of Hearts.

There should have been a separate count of creditors votes amongst the " unconnected creditors ". The HMRC vote against the offer would have liquidated Hearts, but that did not happen because the administrator Bryan Jackson of BDO broke the insolvency regulations and ignored the rules calling for an unconnected creditor vote count.

Hearts got off the hook with a bit of cheating the system. No surprise there I suppose.

Did anyone make a complaint to the Insolvency Practitioners body about it?

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[Tornadoes70]

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They weren't put into administration "instead" of liquidation. There was no dubiety about their going into administration. That was absolutely the correct and legal thing to do.

What the issue is, as GG has alluded to, is whether liquidation should have followed.


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I think most folk might have realised I was referring to the fact they were only put into administration without subsequent liquidation but thanks for clearing that up. The dubiety being they were not liquidated as they should have been due to as GG refers to some sleight of underhandedness going on behind the scenes of which was suspected then. However we've owned them over the last few years so no real problem for me.

[SouthMoroccoStu]

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If they own it I assume they pay for its maintenance etc.?

Ha ha! A very good point

[Firestarter]

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You still don't know it, if your only source is the yams themselves.

Says here they gifted it to the city in 1922.

And in 2008 the city still believed it belonged to the city:
Councillor Buchanan said: "I have not heard one voice for anything other than a return of the memorial to its home at Haymarket and as quickly as possible. "This issue is particularly significant to Hearts fans the world over, as the clock and monument were gifted by the football club in memory of the 13 players who fought for their country and most especially the seven who made the ultimate sacrifice with their lives.

Shirley Drs Budge wouldn't be claiming something that isn't true?

Shameless, not surprising though.

[FilipinoHibs]

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I think most folk might have realised I was referring to the fact they were only put into administration without subsequent liquidation but thanks for clearing that up. The dubiety being they were not liquidated as they should have been due to as GG refers to some sleight of underhandedness going on behind the scenes of which was suspected then. However we've owned them over the last few years so no real problem for me.

If UKIO did not accept the CVA then it would have been liquidation. They would have got the ground but only valuable if they could turn into housing/Tesco. City establishment closed rank and made clear it would have made planning permission for such near impossible. So better take 2.4 mill minus BDO fee 350K than gamble on getting nothing.

[lapsedhibee]

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'The club owns Edinburgh's famous War Memorial at the Haymarket junction in west central Edinburgh'

Who the **** wants to own a War Memorial?? Would it not be more charitable to gift it to the people of Edinburgh or something?

Yes, it would. Just like they actually did, in 1922. They seem to have 'forgotten' that it's not theirs.
Can't help wondering why they haven't considered selling off the Brooklyn Bridge to pay for their megastand to be completed on time.

[greenginger]

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Did anyone make a complaint to the Insolvency Practitioners body about it?

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Not that I know of, but what could that body have done ? give BDO a rap on the knuckles. It would have taken a High Court challenge to get the CVA decision reversed.

I spoke to a friend who worked in quite a high position in HMRC enforcement section and he told me the fix was recognised by the tax people but they took no action as, whether it was a CVA or liquidation, all the proceeds were going to go to the secured creditor Ukio Bankas and it would be extra costs with no chance of a return of any of their owed ££££millions.

He also said the HMRC had not just forgotten about it. The taxman does not like how the insolvency system works at present. Too many bandits abusing the rules and proper purpose of the laws they way they have been written.

Next time there is a Parliamentary Revue of the insolvency process regulations , don't be surprised if the HOMFC administration gets a mention as an example of why administrators have too much power too little scrutiny .

The Yams could be famous , again !

[lapsedhibee]

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Not that I know of, but what could that body have done ? give BDO a rap on the knuckles. It would have taken a High Court challenge to get the CVA decision reversed.

I spoke to a friend who worked in quite a high position in HMRC enforcement section and he told me the fix was recognised by the tax people but they took no action as, whether it was a CVA or liquidation, all the proceeds were going to go to the secured creditor Ukio Bankas and it would be extra costs with no chance of a return of any of their owed ££££millions.

He also said the HMRC had not just forgotten about it. The taxman does not like how the insolvency system works at present. Too many bandits abusing the rules and proper purpose of the laws they way they have been written.

Next time there is a Parliamentary Revue of the insolvency process regulations , don't be surprised if the HOMFC administration gets a mention as an example of why administrators have too much power too little scrutiny .

The Yams could be famous , again !

That'd be good. Dancing persons on the tables in front of a Select Committee. No touching though!

[Bostonhibby]

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If UKIO did not accept the CVA then it would have been liquidation. They would have got the ground but only valuable if they could turn into housing/Tesco. City establishment closed rank and made clear it would have made planning permission for such near impossible. So better take 2.4 mill minus BDO fee 350K than gamble on getting nothing.

Exactly. Well covered in the Admin thread at the time and by better experts than me.

The media and council swung into action with all the hype that made the site unattractive for developers and therefore a very low value for what turned out to be Mrs Budge (presumably no one else wanted to "save" them).

We had tales of never being able to touch the famous historic atmospheric (asbestos ridden and wooden fire hazard) and it was to be protected by historic Scotland. Much was made of the land being of very low development value due to nearby buildings etc.

Look where we are today - there's no doubt the council played a blinder, from not pursuing debts and saying nothing pre admin to unstinting help thereafter.

[Geo_1875]

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Fluorescent strips FFS! Somebody must have had them lying about at the back of a cupboard.

Why are you posting photos of the New St Andrews House demolition site?

[CropleyWasGod]

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Not that I know of, but what could that body have done ? give BDO a rap on the knuckles. It would have taken a High Court challenge to get the CVA decision reversed.

I spoke to a friend who worked in quite a high position in HMRC enforcement section and he told me the fix was recognised by the tax people but they took no action as, whether it was a CVA or liquidation, all the proceeds were going to go to the secured creditor Ukio Bankas and it would be extra costs with no chance of a return of any of their owed ££££millions.

He also said the HMRC had not just forgotten about it. The taxman does not like how the insolvency system works at present. Too many bandits abusing the rules and proper purpose of the laws they way they have been written.

Next time there is a Parliamentary Revue of the insolvency process regulations , don't be surprised if the HOMFC administration gets a mention as an example of why administrators have too much power too little scrutiny .

The Yams could be famous , again !

If the IPA had found BJ in breach of the rules, it would have been him that would have been censured, I reckon. (I would have welcomed a complaint, by the way, if only to allow BJ the opportunity to explain why he allowed the vote in that way. I know I've said this before, but having worked with him I would be surprised if he had done anything underhand.)

However, the bit in bold is, IMO, the important part. No-one was disadvantaged by the CVA vote going the way it did. One might argue that the secured creditor would have gained more in a liquidation, but no-one else would..... other than those who wished to see HMFC liquidated, of course.

[Ozyhibby]

Any enjoyment to be had during Hearts admin was tempered by the complete James hunt that Petrie was making of running Hibs at the time.


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[heretoday]

Anyone who says we are not unhealthily obsessed with our city rivals need only read this thread.

[Bostonhibby]

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Anyone who says we are not unhealthily obsessed with our city rivals need only read this thread.

They say laughter is the best medicine and a great many hibbies like me have a lot to thank the maroon balloons for.

It really isn't that difficult to have a laugh at their expense, contribute to everyone else's merriment and do everything else l enjoy as well.

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[greenginger]

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If the IPA had found BJ in breach of the rules, it would have been him that would have been censured, I reckon. (I would have welcomed a complaint, by the way, if only to allow BJ the opportunity to explain why he allowed the vote in that way. I know I've said this before, but having worked with him I would be surprised if he had done anything underhand.)

However, the bit in bold is, IMO, the important part. No-one was disadvantaged by the CVA vote going the way it did. One might argue that the secured creditor would have gained more in a liquidation, but no-one else would..... other than those who wished to see HMFC liquidated, of course.

Bryan Jackson may have been a straight guy, but , back in 2013 he was being hailed as the " Saviour of Football Clubs ". Maybe the adulation went to his head and he came to the conclusion the the end justified the means.

I was told the reasoning behind the way the CVA vote was conducted was that Ukio Bankas was in administration too , therefor no longer considered a " connected " creditor.

There might have been some merit in that view if it were not for the fact Jackson had just finished the Portsmouth FC. administration (another club brought down by a dodgy Lithuanian Banker )

In their creditor vote there was a couple of connected companies who were in administration too. No distinction was made to them when the creditor votes were counted.

These companies votes were not counted in the non-connected creditors vote count, just as the Ukio Bankas should not have been allowed to out-vote HMRC .

All water under the bridge now, but I would love to know if Jackson was encouraged to save the Yams by persons high up in the political food chain.

[My_Wife_Camille]

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Anyone who says we are not unhealthily obsessed with our city rivals need only read this thread.

What’s unhealthy about a single discussion thread? Better than 8 or 9 different threads about them.

[Jack]

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Exactly. Well covered in the Admin thread at the time and by better experts than me.

The media and council swung into action with all the hype that made the site unattractive for developers and therefore a very low value for what turned out to be Mrs Budge (presumably no one else wanted to "save" them).

We had tales of never being able to touch the famous historic atmospheric (asbestos ridden and wooden fire hazard) and it was to be protected by historic Scotland. Much was made of the land being of very low development value due to nearby buildings etc.

Look where we are today - there's no doubt the council played a blinder, from not pursuing debts and saying nothing pre admin to unstinting help thereafter.

It's been a double edged sword really.

They saved the club and the ground however they've more or less been forced to stay in that location and are severely restricted in how it can be developed - as the current monstrosity illustrates perfectly!

Not only that the extra cost incurred in the current development and the fact it cannot be further developed will leave them hamstrung for decades to come.

[7heaven]

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Why are you posting photos of the New St Andrews House demolition site?

Have the Chandeliers not been delivered yet.

[Bostonhibby]

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It's been a double edged sword really.

They saved the club and the ground however they've more or less been forced to stay in that location and are severely restricted in how it can be developed - as the current monstrosity illustrates perfectly!

Not only that the extra cost incurred in the current development and the fact it cannot be further developed will leave them hamstrung for decades to come.

I know. We really shouldn't laugh but....

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[SouthMoroccoStu]

Can you actually "own" a war memorial? Not really in the spirit of it

Surely it's there for everyone

[CropleyWasGod]

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Can you actually "own" a war memorial? Not really in the spirit of it

Surely it's there for everyone

This suggests it's a public monument:-

https://canmore.org.uk/site/237149/e...n-war-memorial

[SouthMoroccoStu]

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This suggests it's a public monument:-

https://canmore.org.uk/site/237149/e...n-war-memorial

My point exactly

Plenty of clubs have memorials to past managers, players and fans, I don't doubt these are owned by the clubs or supporters or historical trusts.

But calming to own a public memorial to a world wide event for petty point scoring over your rivals is crass and in poor taste.

[lapsedhibee]

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This suggests it's a public monument:-

https://canmore.org.uk/site/237149/e...n-war-memorial

Slightly odd site, that. Appears to list Tynecastle itself as the location of a war memorial:https://canmore.org.uk/site/68133/ed...e-park-stadium

[Thecat23]

Their stand is *****
Their fans are *****
Their manager is *****
Their owner is *****
Their club is *****
They all talk *****,

Ladies and gentlemen Heart Of Midlothian football club.

[worcesterhibby]

Maybe it's just me but I don't really see why Hearts are so proud that they...

"inspired a widely accepted change in attitude towards the war effort and thousands of Hearts supporters, along with players and supporters of other clubs joined The 16th Royal Scots"

Basically they are saying that they were a key reason that young, hard working men, left home to face a pointless and horrific death, fighting to ensure that the British Monarchy and the establishment didn't lose out financially to the German Monarchy and establishment. I mourn the loss of those young lives whether they were Hearts players, Hibs players, milkmen, dockers, miners or shop workers. However to crow about your part in encouraging young men to kill and be killed on behalf of Europe's rich elite is absolutely immoral.

The first World war wasn't about defeating Fascism it was about power and money and who ruled the roost in Europe, in fact it was the repercussions of the First World war that led to the rise of Fascism.

I had three great Uncles die in WW1 two of them on the Somme, three brothers out of four went to war and never returned.

I don't even wear a poppy now, it has been hijacked by those who like to stir up jingoistic support for modern wars and our current professional army and supports the culture of modern warfare that brings death and despair to so many and wealth and power to the ruling elite.

[lapsedhibee]

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Maybe it's just me but I don't really see why Hearts are so proud that they...

"inspired a widely accepted change in attitude towards the war effort and thousands of Hearts supporters, along with players and supporters of other clubs joined The 16th Royal Scots"

Basically they are saying that they were a key reason that young, hard working men, left home to face a pointless and horrific death, fighting to ensure that the British Monarchy and the establishment didn't lose out financially to the German Monarchy and establishment. I mourn the loss of those young lives whether they were Hearts players, Hibs players, milkmen, dockers, miners or shop workers. However to crow about your part in encouraging young men to kill and be killed on behalf of Europe's rich elite is absolutely immoral.

The first World war wasn't about defeating Fascism it was about power and money and who ruled the roost in Europe, in fact it was the repercussions of the First World war that led to the rise of Fascism.

I had three great Uncles die in WW1 two of them on the Somme, three brothers out of four went to war and never returned.

I don't even wear a poppy now, it has been hijacked by those who like to stir up jingoistic support for modern wars and our current professional army and supports the culture of modern warfare that brings death and despair to so many and wealth and power to the ruling elite.

First you say that our cup win was tainted by using Lithuanian pensioners' savings to buy it. Now you say that our world war win was tainted by the pointless slaughter of millions. Will your hobo jealousy never end?

[Bostonhibby]

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Maybe it's just me but I don't really see why Hearts are so proud that they...

"inspired a widely accepted change in attitude towards the war effort and thousands of Hearts supporters, along with players and supporters of other clubs joined The 16th Royal Scots"

Basically they are saying that they were a key reason that young, hard working men, left home to face a pointless and horrific death, fighting to ensure that the British Monarchy and the establishment didn't lose out financially to the German Monarchy and establishment. I mourn the loss of those young lives whether they were Hearts players, Hibs players, milkmen, dockers, miners or shop workers. However to crow about your part in encouraging young men to kill and be killed on behalf of Europe's rich elite is absolutely immoral.

The first World war wasn't about defeating Fascism it was about power and money and who ruled the roost in Europe, in fact it was the repercussions of the First World war that led to the rise of Fascism.

I had three great Uncles die in WW1 two of them on the Somme, three brothers out of four went to war and never returned.

I don't even wear a poppy now, it has been hijacked by those who like to stir up jingoistic support for modern wars and our current professional army and supports the culture of modern warfare that brings death and despair to so many and wealth and power to the ruling elite.

Agree every word.

They've probably managed to offend an even wider group than even they would normally do. Here's me thinking patriotism and peer pressure might have been the major influencer in WW1 recruitment.


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