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  1. #61
    @hibs.net private member Mantis Toboggan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    It might be cynical but I may not be wrong. Probably the first time I've ever seen an incident of this scale in which the potential casualty figure is barely mentioned. There'll be a reason for that.
    Sounds like they are going to struggle to even find and identify bodies now so they probably genuinely can't put a likely number out.

    Is this the first such incident in the UK in a new build tower block?
    I've lived in a few new builds down south and I always thought they seemed cheap and flimsy as well as overcrowded.
    Hopefully this inquiry will result in real change. There are some incredibly harsh headlines coming out tomorrow, check the Mirror and Metro in particular.


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  3. #62
    @hibs.net private member Mantis Toboggan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    This whole tragedy got me thinking about the twin towers and the spectacular collapse, whilst the London tower block stands firm.
    There is a local guy claiming some sort of conspiracy, Anonymous had the video up earlier. Just seemed like an emotional reaction more than anything else.

  4. #63
    Coaching Staff hibsbollah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mantis Toboggan View Post
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    There is a local guy claiming some sort of conspiracy, Anonymous had the video up earlier. Just seemed like an emotional reaction more than anything else.
    I think that interview just shows you how some poor Londoners feel about what's happening to their city. It's all about money, most of it Saudi and Russian. Housing policy and austerity have a part to play in this story, and I fully expect Corbyn to point that out.

  5. #64
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
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    This whole tragedy got me thinking about the twin towers and the spectacular collapse, whilst the London tower block stands firm.
    Different structure. Concrete doesn't buckle in the heat like steel does.

  6. #65
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibsbollah View Post
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    I think that interview just shows you how some poor Londoners feel about what's happening to their city. It's all about money, most of it Saudi and Russian. Housing policy and austerity have a part to play in this story, and I fully expect Corbyn to point that out.
    Much of the investment in luxury (empty) flats in prime London is Chinese. Esp from Hong Kong.

  7. #66
    Coaching Staff Betty Boop's Avatar
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  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Different structure. Concrete doesn't buckle in the heat like steel does.
    And hadnt had planes full of jet fuel crash into them at a couple of hundred miles an hour...

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    And hadnt had planes full of jet fuel crash into them at a couple of hundred miles an hour...
    Clearly but the nature of the collapse of the towers was that the fire proofing was compromised, the steel melted and buckled causing stress on the connections between the steel and collapse.

    This block is made of concrete which will withstanding fire much better.

    Other scenarios are available (i.e. the CIA blew it up).

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    Its a good example of the difficulties that May now faces, given her weakened position. She is open to attack about everything now.

    The tower fire may or may not have something to do with government, nobody knows yet.

    And she is just not that sort of touchy-feely person, i dont particuarly care about that. But agree it does continue to make her look feeble when she is percieved to be hiding away from people.

  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Clearly but the nature of the collapse of the towers was that the fire proofing was compromised, the steel melted and buckled causing stress on the connections between the steel and collapse.

    This block is made of concrete which will withstanding fire much better.

    Other scenarios are available (i.e. the CIA blew it up).
    Sorry, i wasnt disputing what you said, was trying to support it. Conspiracy theories around sept 11th get my goat a wee bit!

  12. #71
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    There's obviously a lot more victims than is being officially announced at the moment and the question is why? If there's an attempt at trying to manage the reaction and grief then hell mend whoever is responsible. This is how conspiracy theories grab hold, if you keep the truth from people they will invent their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    There's obviously a lot more victims than is being officially announced at the moment and the question is why? If there's an attempt at trying to manage the reaction and grief then he'll mend whoever is responsible. This is how conspiracy theories grab hold, if you keep the truth from people they will invent their own.
    I iamgine they dont know yet.

    They habe no idea who was in the building, and i imagine they will need dental records to identify bodies. Thats if they all habe dental records, and of course they need to find all of fhe bodies and inform families. Given the apparently transitory and international make-up of the residents, that will not be an easy task.

    They keep saying they expect the death toll to rise, what else can they say?

  14. #73
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I iamgine they dont know yet.

    They habe no idea who was in the building, and i imagine they will need dental records to identify bodies. Thats if they all habe dental records, and of course they need to find all of fhe bodies and inform families. Given the apparently transitory and international make-up of the residents, that will not be an easy task.

    They keep saying they expect the death toll to rise, what else can they say?
    Even in a fire of that magnitude there will be human remains. They also must have figures of how many people are missing. Normally in this kind of situation there are announcements saying how many people have been confirmed as dead and then something along the lines of " #* people are still missing and presumed dead". I think we can safely say that there will be no more survivors found in the building so keeping these figures from the families of those still missing is only prolonging their agony and an extremely cruel thing to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Even in a fire of that magnitude there will be human remains. They also must have figures of how many people are missing. Normally in this kind of situation there are announcements saying how many people have been confirmed as dead and then something along the lines of " #* people are still missing and presumed dead". I think we can safely say that there will be no more survivors found in the building so keeping these figures from the families of those still missing is only prolonging their agony and an extremely cruel thing to do.
    As i say, i imagine it is because they dont know. There are probably areas they havent been into yet, bodies not found, etc

    The worst thing they could do just now is give false or inaccurate info.

    Your suggestion would do nothing to alleviate suffering, all they would be saying is x people are still unaccounted for. Amd i doubt they even know that figure yet.

    I can only imagine how apocolyptically awful the scenes must be inside that building.

  16. #75
    @hibs.net private member Scouse Hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Sorry, i wasnt disputing what you said, was trying to support it. Conspiracy theories around sept 11th get my goat a wee bit!
    Me too!
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  17. #76
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    As i say, i imagine it is because they dont know. There are probably areas they havent been into yet, bodies not found, etc

    The worst thing they could do just now is give false or inaccurate info.

    Your suggestion would do nothing to alleviate suffering, all they would be saying is x people are still unaccounted for. Amd i doubt they even know that figure yet.

    I can only imagine how apocolyptically awful the scenes must be inside that building.
    We'll see. If the death toll rises by a small percentage then I'll agree with you, however if there is a massive rise like some unofficial sources are claiming then someone's at it and the question needs to be asked why? Local anger is rising at the lack of communication, there needs to be transparency here and it certainly doesn't look that way at the moment. Holding back information won't help anyone, least of all those praying for missing family members.

  18. #77
    Coaching Staff frazeHFC's Avatar
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    BBC reporting as many as 76 people could be missing, which you would have to imagine that will soon become a death toll. Terrible how this can happen in this country with all the building and fire standards we have (which obviously aren't enough).

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Sorry, i wasnt disputing what you said, was trying to support it. Conspiracy theories around sept 11th get my goat a wee bit!
    Same! Infuriates me.

  19. #78
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Its a good example of the difficulties that May now faces, given her weakened position. She is open to attack about everything now.

    The tower fire may or may not have something to do with government, nobody knows yet.

    And she is just not that sort of touchy-feely person, i dont particuarly care about that. But agree it does continue to make her look feeble when she is percieved to be hiding away from people.
    Nobody is asking her to be "touchy-feely". Just turning up at pre-election debates would have been a start. Answering random questions from interviewers and members of the public would have helped. Just showing some human compassion seems to be beyond her. She does face difficulties and she is in a weakened position but that is entirely her own fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    We'll see. If the death toll rises by a small percentage then I'll agree with you, however if there is a massive rise like some unofficial sources are claiming then someone's at it and the question needs to be asked why? Local anger is rising at the lack of communication, there needs to be transparency here and it certainly doesn't look that way at the moment. Holding back information won't help anyone, least of all those praying for missing family members.
    It seems like you have already bought into the conspiracy theory.

    Who would be at it, amd what would they gain from being at it? And actually while i am asking, what are you suggesting 'they' are 'at'?
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 16-06-2017 at 11:16 AM.

  21. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    Nobody is asking her to be "touchy-feely". Just turning up at pre-election debates would have been a start. Answering random questions from interviewers and members of the public would have helped. Just showing some human compassion seems to be beyond her. She does face difficulties and she is in a weakened position but that is entirely her own fault.
    Agree its her own fault, but that is not her style - my point in that lack of a human touch is now much more apparent, and much more of a stick with which to beat her, as a result of her failures.

  22. #81
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    It seems like you have already bought into the conspiracy theory.

    Who would be at it, amd what would they gain from being at it? And actually while i am asking, what are you suggesting 'they' are 'at'?
    I've bought into nothing but it is obvious there are more than 17 casualties. Drip feeding information might blunt the initial outrage amongst the wider population but it won't help those directly involved. It's been obvious that the casualties will be much higher than what's been announced so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I've bought into nothing but it is obvious there are more than 17 casualties. Drip feeding information might blunt the initial outrage amongst the wider population but it won't help those directly involved. It's been obvious that the casualties will be much higher than what's been announced so far.
    So im not clear what you are getting angry about? Do you think 'they' are witholding info for nefarious means? Im not sure what it is you think they should be doing that they arent doinh?

  24. #83
    @hibs.net private member stantonhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I've bought into nothing but it is obvious there are more than 17 casualties. Drip feeding information might blunt the initial outrage amongst the wider population but it won't help those directly involved. It's been obvious that the casualties will be much higher than what's been announced so far.

    I would imagine those directly involved are under no illusions as to what is happening and will know that it is extremely unlikely that any more survivors will be found. Not really sure what your point is tbh.

  25. #84
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    So im not clear what you are getting angry about? Do you think 'they' are witholding info for nefarious means? Im not sure what it is you think they should be doing that they arent doinh?
    Being open and transparent. It's what the people deserve. They're having to do their own detective work, the police will now have a good idea of how many are still missing, why is this still left to speculation?

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    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stantonhibby View Post
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    I would imagine those directly involved are under no illusions as to what is happening and will know that it is extremely unlikely that any more survivors will be found. Not really sure what your point is tbh.
    My point is that there are people running around trying to find loved ones because they were being led to believe that only 17 people were dead so far. The police will have a better idea what the final total might really be because they know how many are still missing. If my family were missing I'm damn sure I'd want to know if there was a chance their among 17 dead or 100 dead. Putting a lid on what they know only reeks of them trying to manage reaction and that's the last thing they should be doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Being open and transparent. It's what the people deserve. They're having to do their own detective work, the police will now have a good idea of how many are still missing, why is this still left to speculation?
    I think you are making some major leaps and assumptions here.

    Because how does a (possibly inaccurate) number help anyone? If im missing someone, and the police say 75 are missing, how does that help me if they can't say if it includes the person im missing or not?

    And what happens if they say 75 are missing, but the numbet of bodies doesnt tally? Id imagine a badly burned dog couls easily be mistaken for a baby or young child, what if there are people who havent beem reported missing, do theu just stop lookkng once they have hit the 75 number?

    They will be methodically and systematically searching and recording what they find - that will be a slow process, amd identifying the bodies will take longer. Its bettwr they are slow amd accurate than they miss something or make a mistake.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 16-06-2017 at 12:52 PM.

  28. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    My point is that there are people running around trying to find loved ones because they were being led to believe that only 17 people were dead so far. The police will have a better idea what the final total might really be because they know how many are still missing. If my family were missing I'm damn sure I'd want to know if there was a chance their among 17 dead or 100 dead. Putting a lid on what they know only reeks of them trying to manage reaction and that's the last thing they should be doing.
    And they werent being led to believe, they were being told what presumably the police could confirm.

  29. #88
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    And they werent being led to believe, they were being told what presumably the police could confirm.
    There's people running round hospitals trying to find family. It would appear that protocols used in terrorist attacks are being used and police and hospital staff are being told not to give out information just yet. There's even reports of families having found relatives after looking through hospitals and after being refused information due to protocols that are designed for attacks.

    If true then whoever ordered this need to get it sorted so that people can start getting clarity. I don't blame the police, emergency services or hospital staff who are by all measures doing a great job and who also shouldn't be put in this situation. I just saw a report where a father was looking for a kid and was told by one of the firemen that he wasn't allowed to give out any information.

  30. #89
    Testimonial Due EH6 Hibby's Avatar
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    Just read on Facebook that Lily Allen has been dropped from Newsnight for comments she's made about the death toll.

    Speaking to Jon Snow, Lily said that the goverment is trying to 'micro-manage' people's grief. "I have never in my life seen an event like this where the death count has been downplayed by mainstream media," she said.

    "Seventeen? I'm sorry but I'm hearing from people that the figure is much closer to 150, and that many of those people are children.

    "Those are off the record numbers I've been given from policemen and from firemen," she added.

    I do find it strange that they can't give at least a rough figure at this stage.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    There's people running round hospitals trying to find family. It would appear that protocols used in terrorist attacks are being used and police and hospital staff are being told not to give out information just yet. There's even reports of families having found relatives after looking through hospitals and after being refused information due to protocols that are designed for attacks.

    If true then whoever ordered this need to get it sorted so that people can start getting clarity. I don't blame the police, emergency services or hospital staff who are by all measures doing a great job and who also shouldn't be put in this situation. I just saw a report where a father was looking for a kid and was told by one of the firemen that he wasn't allowed to give out any information.
    Reports like that are difficult to interpret without the full context. Id rather wait and ser than rush to judgement.

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