hibs.net Messageboard

Page 2 of 13 FirstFirst 123412 ... LastLast
Results 31 to 60 of 365
  1. #31
    @hibs.net private member overdrive's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Bellevue
    Age
    33
    Posts
    4,947
    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    From the eye witness reports, the fire seems to have spread via the outside of the building, which during the recent tart-up was clad with composite aluminium/insulation sandwich panels (and curtain walling). People said that the panels were bursting into flames one after another.

    There are regulations in place to prevent this sort of spread of flame in high rise buildings, ie. the insulating material in the panel and fire breaks in any ventilation gaps behind the panels. It'll be interesting to see if somebody is found to have cut corners.
    I read earlier that the company that installed the panels went into administration shortly after the work was completed... read into that what you will in terms of corners being cut.


  2. Log in to remove the advert

  3. #32
    @hibs.net private member cabbageandribs1875's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    in a house in Bathgate
    Posts
    29,783
    confirmed 12 fatalities, more to come ; Met police


    18 receiving critical care
    Last edited by cabbageandribs1875; 14-06-2017 at 04:08 PM.

  4. #33
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Ma bit
    Posts
    9,490
    Quote Originally Posted by The_Exile View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    https://twitter.com/luciajwalker/sta...08864327307264

    Stomach churning, knowing there's people inside that is just sickening.
    Incredible how the entire block was engulfed like that.
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  5. #34
    @hibs.net private member Pete's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    North stand
    Posts
    16,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbycol View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I lived at one of the highrises in the calders a few years ago when a fire broke out and we where all evacuated by the emergency services , thick black smoke like hell , fumbling our way down the stairs , very frightening . A plan was in place in my experience but none as far as I have seen or heard via BBC news in the London high rise. Bloody shocking if it so .

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
    The Calder flats are similar in the way they've been renovated. They used to be solid concrete but were done up with aluminium cladding in the late eighties as were the ones at Wester Hailes. Unless my memory is playing tricks.

    Different times so probably different methods and materials but you wonder if questions will now be asked.

  6. #35
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Saint-Malo, Brittany
    Age
    51
    Posts
    17,692
    Quote Originally Posted by Pete View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The Calder flats are similar in the way they've been renovated. They used to be solid concrete but were done up with aluminium cladding in the late eighties as were the ones at Wester Hailes. Unless my memory is playing tricks.

    Different times so probably different methods and materials but you wonder if questions will now be asked.
    Scottish and English building regs are different as is the Building Control system. In England there is more self certification and less control.

    The aluminium composite cladding panels are perfectly safe when used properly. Panels from the same manufacturer can look identical but have a different insulation core - either polyurethane for low risk use and mineral fibre (ie. rockwool) for large areas and/or high rise use.

    There's an increase in the use of this type of product (as well as other external insulation systems) in newbuild too, and the guidelines for their usage are evolving constantly.

  7. #36
    I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag... Sir David Gray's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Posts
    33,599
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I've just seen the pictures on the news. I fear the death toll will rise a fair bit. What an absolutely sickening sight to see, it couldn't have happened at a worse time either.
    I really hope everyone else has managed to get out alive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Horrendous and happened at the worst possible time for occupancy. As in most fires many have probably sadly perished through smoke inhalation.
    They were saying on the news this morning that a lot of the residents in this tower block are Muslim and that this could have possibly saved lives due to the fact that they are observing Ramadan just now and are only eating and drinking during the hours of darkness. Because of when this occurred, a lot of those people would have been awake when the fire broke out, who would otherwise have been sleeping at that time of night.

    It's a really awful tragedy and I can't imagine how frightened those people must have been to know that they were effectively trapped in their own homes with no realistic means of escaping the flames and smoke.
    HIBERNIAN F.C. - SCOTTISH CUP WINNERS 2016

    21.05.2016

  8. #37
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    4,960
    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Scottish and English building regs are different as is the Building Control system. In England there is more self certification and less control.

    The aluminium composite cladding panels are perfectly safe when used properly. Panels from the same manufacturer can look identical but have a different insulation core - either polyurethane for low risk use and mineral fibre (ie. rockwool) for large areas and/or high rise use.

    There's an increase in the use of this type of product (as well as other external insulation systems) in newbuild too, and the guidelines for their usage are evolving constantly.
    Perfectly safe - are you sure?

    "An Aluminium Composite Material or ACM is a generic reference describing a flat panel that consists of a mineral core bonded between two aluminium sheets which many vary from 0.3-0.5mm in thickness. The core is typically a low density material that often incorporates polyethylene (PE) as the major component. Polyethylene is a hydrocarbon based combustible material. The predominant use of hydrocarbon is as a combustible fuel source, consequently, in addition to being a fire hazard (due to its combustibility), an ACM with a PE core is prone to melting, dripping and collapsing."

    http://www.sgi-architectural.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/PE-ACM-The-Issue-of-Combustibility.pdf

  9. #38
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    London
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,780
    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Perfectly safe - are you sure?

    "An Aluminium Composite Material or ACM is a generic reference describing a flat panel that consists of a mineral core bonded between two aluminium sheets which many vary from 0.3-0.5mm in thickness. The core is typically a low density material that often incorporates polyethylene (PE) as the major component. Polyethylene is a hydrocarbon based combustible material. The predominant use of hydrocarbon is as a combustible fuel source, consequently, in addition to being a fire hazard (due to its combustibility), an ACM with a PE core is prone to melting, dripping and collapsing."

    http://www.sgi-architectural.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/PE-ACM-The-Issue-of-Combustibility.pdf
    I wonder how it caught fire if it was sandwiched. Unless the heat was high enough to melt the aluminium.

  10. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Scottish and English building regs are different as is the Building Control system. In England there is more self certification and less control.

    The aluminium composite cladding panels are perfectly safe when used properly. Panels from the same manufacturer can look identical but have a different insulation core - either polyurethane for low risk use and mineral fibre (ie. rockwool) for large areas and/or high rise use.

    There's an increase in the use of this type of product (as well as other external insulation systems) in newbuild too, and the guidelines for their usage are evolving constantly.
    Aesthetically, cladding looks good but it would be madness to prioritise making a building look good ahead of making it safe. On a different, but not unrelated safety matter, it was a brick cladding wall which collapsed at Oxgangs primary last year and prompted the closure of a whole load of Edinburgh schools built using the same contractors. You worry about council deals with contractors which compromise the safety of those using the buildings, be that tower blocks or schools. All such work on buildings has to be signed off and must conform to current health and safety standards so it makes you wonder just how stringent these standards are.

  11. #40
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    London
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,780
    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Aesthetically, cladding looks good but it would be madness to prioritise making a building look good ahead of making it safe. On a different, but not unrelated safety matter, it was a brick cladding wall which collapsed at Oxgangs primary last year and prompted the closure of a whole load of Edinburgh schools built using the same contractors. You worry about council deals with contractors which compromise the safety of those using the buildings, be that tower blocks or schools. All such work on buildings has to be signed off and must conform to current health and safety standards so it makes you wonder just how stringent these standards are.
    The cladding also adds insulation and keeps the rain out. That's more of a driver than aesthetics.

    If you don't put the insulation on the outside, its tricky to avoid cold-bridging and interstitial condensation which can cause health and structural problems over time.

    The schools problems were to do with missing wall ties. Wall ties are used in cavity wall construction as well so its not related to the technology.

  12. #41
    @hibs.net private member cabbageandribs1875's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    in a house in Bathgate
    Posts
    29,783
    fatalities have risen to 17 now, with still more expected

  13. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    fatalities have risen to 17 now, with still more expected
    Afraid to say I can't see the fatalities being any less than a hundred :(

  14. #43
    @hibs.net private member wpj's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    london
    Age
    53
    Posts
    2,325
    From the BBC website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40284233

    "Construction firm Rydon, which carried out the refurbishment, initially said in a statement that the work met "all fire regulations" - the wording was omitted in a later statement."

    Rydon also have contracts all over North London for privately funded NHS properties with maintenance contracts that carry on for years, they also do not allow any "cheaper" contractors to carry out any work meaning they bring in their preferred providers resulting in a large amount of a budget is used to pay these contractors which could be spent elsewhere. Crazy to be tied into such a long contract. (this includes light bulbs and screwing anything to a wall etc.)

    No bearing on the tragic events but just a bit of information about the firm.

  15. #44
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    London
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,780
    Quote Originally Posted by wpj View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    From the BBC website: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40284233

    "Construction firm Rydon, which carried out the refurbishment, initially said in a statement that the work met "all fire regulations" - the wording was omitted in a later statement."

    Rydon also have contracts all over North London for privately funded NHS properties with maintenance contracts that carry on for years, they also do not allow any "cheaper" contractors to carry out any work meaning they bring in their preferred providers resulting in a large amount of a budget is used to pay these contractors which could be spent elsewhere. Crazy to be tied into such a long contract. (this includes light bulbs and screwing anything to a wall etc.)

    No bearing on the tragic events but just a bit of information about the firm.
    Public procurement is kafkaesque. If you don't have long term maintenace contracts you need to employ a lot of people to buy stuff which is much more expensive.

  16. #45
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Ma bit
    Posts
    9,490
    Quote Originally Posted by ColinNish View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Afraid to say I can't see the fatalities being any less than a hundred :(
    That would cause uproar. Obviously something has gone terribly wrong for the fire to spread so quickly and with such intensity.
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  17. #46
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    London
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,780
    Quote Originally Posted by overdrive View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I read earlier that the company that installed the panels went into administration shortly after the work was completed... read into that what you will in terms of corners being cut.
    Or csh flow problems because they weren't being paid on time?

  18. #47
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    London
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,780
    Looking at the example from a similar scheme in the news, the windows were moved out to the line of the cladding with the returns lined in timber. If the void behind the cladding was not firestopped each floor as its supposed to be, it would have travlled up the cavity and into the flat through the window surrounds. I wonder if the panels were fully encapsulated. I suspect not.

    https://az750602.vo.msecnd.net/netxs...cades%20LR.pdf

    Worth a look.

  19. #48

  20. #49
    Coaching Staff Betty Boop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Sunny Leith
    Posts
    8,460
    Lot of people voicing there anger now, they want questions answered.

  21. #50
    Coaching Staff lyonhibs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Zurich
    Age
    33
    Posts
    11,914
    Heads are going to roll, someone in either the landlord company and/or the renovating company has made an absolute balls up.

    Unsurprising to see that thunder**** Tommy Robinson off disgracing himself ranting on about "Muslim terrorists" outside a mosque that was in the process of collecting water, clothes etc for the victims.

    I dearly, dearly hope he falls under a bus very, very soon.

  22. #51
    Coaching Staff Betty Boop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Sunny Leith
    Posts
    8,460
    Quote Originally Posted by lyonhibs View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Heads are going to roll, someone in either the landlord company and/or the renovating company has made an absolute balls up.

    Unsurprising to see that thunder**** Tommy Robinson off disgracing himself ranting on about "Muslim terrorists" outside a mosque that was in the process of collecting water, clothes etc for the victims.

    I dearly, dearly hope he falls under a bus very, very soon.


    A roaster of the highest order.

  23. #52
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    London
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,780
    Looking at the pics on the internet it doesn't look like a composite panel at all. More like a rainscreen system over insulation between battens. Says the fire spread up 12 storeys in 20 minutes!

    The rainscreen (if thats what it was) has completely gone.

    The interesting thing about the Dubai cladding fire was that the cladding burned by the interior wasn't that badly damaged.

  24. #53
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    edinburgh
    Posts
    12,898
    Quote Originally Posted by lyonhibs View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Heads are going to roll, someone in either the landlord company and/or the renovating company has made an absolute balls up.

    Unsurprising to see that thunder**** Tommy Robinson off disgracing himself ranting on about "Muslim terrorists" outside a mosque that was in the process of collecting water, clothes etc for the victims.

    I dearly, dearly hope he falls under a bus very, very soon.
    I very much doubt anyone will be held properly accountable. If there's found to be someone at fault for this then there should be lengthy prison sentences handed out. It just doesn't seem to happen in this country though.

    GIRLS DONT LIKE BOYS GIRLS LIKE SIMON MURRAY

  25. #54
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Gate 38
    Posts
    7,676
    There must be a reason why casualty figures are being drip fed. 600 people lived in the building. I suspect the authorities probably don't know for sure, but if the word was out from the start that hundreds have died, I don't think people would know what to do with their rage.

    I imagine it'll be 6 here, 4 there... slow feed of numbers with the real total kind of being obfuscated.

  26. #55
    Coaching Staff Sylar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Lanark/Palo Alto
    Age
    32
    Posts
    14,551
    Gamer IDs

    Gamertag: sjmcg1304
    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There must be a reason why casualty figures are being drip fed. 600 people lived in the building. I suspect the authorities probably don't know for sure, but if the word was out from the start that hundreds have died, I don't think people would know what to do with their rage.

    I imagine it'll be 6 here, 4 there... slow feed of numbers with the real total kind of being obfuscated.
    I think that's a little cynical. There'll still be areas of the building that won't be fully safe to access just now. I wonder how much structural integrity remains, particularly in those areas that burned longest. I dare say it'll be a gradual sweep and clear process for the investigators/fire fighters (whoever is charged with going through the building looking for casualties).

    There are a lot of potential outlets for condemnation here, beyond the cladding - no sensors/sprinkler systems in communal areas, despite that being a key recommendation from the investigation into the last fire that claimed 6 (?) lives in south London. Only one exit staircase for the entire building. And, of course, the cladding itself. It'll also be very interesting to see what the root cause was - there's no speculation that it was indeed the case, but I hope beyond hope it was a horrific accident rather than anything else.

    Also, this is something that had been raised by the residents many times in the past, and had fallen on deaf ears. Just a shame it'll take an incident like this for 'lessons to be learned', and hopefully anyone responsible of neglect, ignorance or a lack of action is locked up for their role in this.

  27. #56
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    between a brewery & distillery
    Posts
    12,170
    Lily Allen said on C4 news she had heard the death toll is likely to be closer to 150.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  28. #57
    @hibs.net private member steakbake's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Gate 38
    Posts
    7,676
    It might be cynical but I may not be wrong. Probably the first time I've ever seen an incident of this scale in which the potential casualty figure is barely mentioned. There'll be a reason for that.

  29. #58
    @hibs.net private member Scouse Hibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Age
    51
    Posts
    16,907
    This whole tragedy got me thinking about the twin towers and the spectacular collapse, whilst the London tower block stands firm.
    "If a player is not interfering with play or seeking to gain
    an advantage, then he should be."

  30. #59
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Brandenburg
    Age
    53
    Posts
    10,217
    Quote Originally Posted by Scouse Hibee View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    This whole tragedy got me thinking about the twin towers and the spectacular collapse, whilst the London tower block stands firm.
    Think a couple of tonnes of aviation fuel and a jumbo crashing into the building at 500mph might make a difference.

  31. #60
    @hibs.net private member Scouse Hibby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Age
    51
    Posts
    16,907
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Think a couple of tonnes of aviation fuel and a jumbo crashing into the building at 500mph might make a difference.
    Yes I obviously get that bit but still had me thinking about it.
    "If a player is not interfering with play or seeking to gain
    an advantage, then he should be."

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
hibs.net ©2012 All Rights Reserved