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  1. #1
    Coaching Staff Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Proportional representation

    I think the Labour Party should include a commitment to PR in their next manifesto.

    As the chart below shows, if we we'd been electing on that basis on Thursday, Corbyn could well have been Prime Minister in a coalition today, assuming the Liberals had learned their lesson and didn't prop up the Tories.

    The SNP would have taken a huge hit, but it would be somewhat hypocritical of them to argue against PR.

    I posted a similar thread with a poll in 2010, but I wonder if people's views have changed since then.


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  3. #2
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    I'm fully supportive of PR but I doubt that many MPs would vote in favor of it. It also hands lots of power to the parties and reduces local accountability

  4. #3
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
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    I'm fully supportive of PR but I doubt that many MPs would vote in favor of it. It also hands lots of power to the parties and reduces local accountability
    Does it reduce local accountability though? In the Holyrood set up, we have our local member. And if we don't like that member, as a Lothians resident, I have a further 6 or 7 I can go to if I want something done.

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    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  6. #5
    ADMIN marinello59's Avatar
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    We had a referundum on the AV system in 2011. I honestly can't remember much about it. Was there any camapigning on the streets at all? A low turnout booted that idea in to touch
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  7. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by lucky View Post
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    I'm fully supportive of PR but I doubt that many MPs would vote in favor of it. It also hands lots of power to the parties and reduces local accountability
    Yeah im glad we have it in Holyrood, but im not convinced that it it is a better system. There are huge problems at holyrood with lack of true backbench MSPs, meaning rebellions are unheatd of. That is a real strength of Westminster.

    I suppose there is no perfect system.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    We had a referundum on the AV system in 2011. I honestly can't remember much about it. Was there any camapigning on the streets at all? A low turnout booted that idea in to touch
    There were, a mate of mine was one of them. Its fair to say it is the UKs forgotten referendum!

  9. #8
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    I think the Labour Party should include a commitment to PR in their next manifesto.

    As the chart below shows, if we we'd been electing on that basis on Thursday, Corbyn could well have been Prime Minister in a coalition today, assuming the Liberals had learned their lesson and didn't prop up the Tories.

    The SNP would have taken a huge hit, but it would be somewhat hypocritical of them to argue against PR.

    I posted a similar thread with a poll in 2010, but I wonder if people's views have changed since then.



    We already had a referendum on that. Back in 2011. Remember!

  10. #9
    Coaching Staff Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    We already had a referendum on that. Back in 2011. Remember!
    Yes. Is that the last time we're allowed to discuss it?
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  11. #10
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    As a country it is wrong that UKIP got more votes than the snp but 55 seats less.

    As an individual, thank f!

  12. #11
    Coaching Staff heretoday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceinawhile View Post
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    As a country it is wrong that UKIP got more votes than the snp but 55 seats less.

    As an individual, thank f!
    Agreed. That was very odd right enough!

  13. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    Yes. Is that the last time we're allowed to discuss it?
    Yes, that seems to be the rules with Brexit.

    UKIP getting 11 seats is enough to convince me that we should stick with what we have.

  14. #13
    @hibs.net private member overdrive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Onceinawhile View Post
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    As a country it is wrong that UKIP got more votes than the snp but 55 seats less.

    As an individual, thank f!
    I'm not sure that would necessarily change under a PR system. Remember that usually the PR is usually performed to a degree at a local level, e.g. at Holyrood at the level of the 8 regions using D'Hondt and in the Council elections at ward level using STV.

    If D'Hondt was used in regional form at Westminster, presumably Scotland or parts of Scotland would be a region or a large part of a region, so you would expect under current political preferences in Scotland that the SNP would still do OK. Likewise, if STV was used then you would expect the SNP to do well in any Scottish super constituency. That's not to say that UKIP wouldn't do reasonably well in England and Wales under this but I don't think it would reverse the current situation.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    We had a referundum on the AV system in 2011. I honestly can't remember much about it. Was there any camapigning on the streets at all? A low turnout booted that idea in to touch
    I was talking about this the other day (before the GE) - I can't remember much about it at all. I don't recall much campaigning on explaining how the AV works.

    I think PR is something we should use - not sure which one is best but a fair return on what was voted on has got to be "progressive"?

  16. #15
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    It was a referendum designed to make us want FPTP. There were far better systems that could have been put in front of us but they chose AV from memory which isn't very good. It rips my knitting that a vote in some constituency can be so important but in others it is worth very little. If you look at some of the closely fought constituencies in this election thre really was only a couple of thousand votes between Corbyn having a chance of forming a government or May having an outright majority.

    Much as I despise UKIP it is ridiculous that they poll 1/2 million and don't get a seat. They got 1.8% of the vote which should give them 12 seats or thereabouts. The previous election was even more ridiculous where they polled over 10% and only got 1 MP.

    Corbyn got 0.7% less of the vote share than Blair did in 2001. Blair returned 413 seats on that occasion. Corbyn actually got a higher percentage of the vote than Cameron did either time and Blair did in his last win. This General Election ended up being more like a US Presidential Campaign and was far more polarised than most elections.

  17. #16
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    The drawbacks of PR have already been highlighted in that they discourage local representation and accountability (at least my understanding of pure PR does), and FPTP helps keep the fringe parties at bay (unfairly though I guess).

    I like the Scottish voting set up which I guess is a form of PR, without being pure PR - I'm unsure which we're discussing here.

    What was the outcome of the referendum? I know of it only as a result of passing references to it but had so little interest in politics and so much interest in vodka and fifa at the time I didn't vote in it or know it was happening.
    Mon the Hibs.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    The drawbacks of PR have already been highlighted in that they discourage local representation and accountability (at least my understanding of pure PR does), and FPTP helps keep the fringe parties at bay (unfairly though I guess).

    I like the Scottish voting set up which I guess is a form of PR, without being pure PR - I'm unsure which we're discussing here.

    What was the outcome of the referendum? I know of it only as a result of passing references to it but had so little interest in politics and so much interest in vodka and fifa at the time I didn't vote in it or know it was happening.
    68-32 for the No side.

    They included it on a local election vote - when hardly anyone bothers to vote, so about a 40% turnout.
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  19. #18
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    Sorry to jump in from other side of the world
    In Australia we have preferential voting - you have six candidates in your electorate you number them 1-6 on your ballot
    If your first choice isn't a chance of winning your vote goes to you second this
    Looking at the U.K. results I think that if a SNP or Lib Dem vote was more aligned with Corbin then they may have marked about as their second choice
    So if snp or lib dem were third in the race their voters second choice would be added to the second choice party
    In this way you wouldn't have a situation where approximately 48% support right wing parties and 52% support progressive parties, yet the rwp win on 40% of the vote

  20. #19
    @hibs.net private member overdrive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFC1892 View Post
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    Sorry to jump in from other side of the world
    In Australia we have preferential voting - you have six candidates in your electorate you number them 1-6 on your ballot
    If your first choice isn't a chance of winning your vote goes to you second this
    Looking at the U.K. results I think that if a SNP or Lib Dem vote was more aligned with Corbin then they may have marked about as their second choice
    So if snp or lib dem were third in the race their voters second choice would be added to the second choice party
    In this way you wouldn't have a situation where approximately 48% support right wing parties and 52% support progressive parties, yet the rwp win on 40% of the vote
    This is the system we had the referendum for.

    My preference would be D'Hondt (the system we have in the Scottish Parliament) with a local constituency FPTP MP but with the extra MPs elected at a national level instead of regional level. The downside is that you would probably need to either have bigger constituencies or an increase in MPs, neither of which is great.

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