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  1. #241
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Yeah, i think it comes down to the islamic world being weak, amf resenting the fact that us godless, unbelieving westerners actually do far better than them and their backward ways. Our very existence is a threat to them and their worldview.

    And for those hardline muslims who libe in the West, there must be a fair bit of internal struggle as they enjoy the fruits of our society, yet hate the basis of it, at the same time. There muat be a fair old internal struggle going on there.
    Not sure I go along with much of this.

    There are many "believers" of one sort or another who have managed to be perfectly successful and integrate their own beliefs with those of Western society, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish or whichever religion you choose to highlight (FWIW I am not religious).

    There are backward, ignorant fundamentalist forms of most religions and they seldom draw wealthy, successful, good looking and charming people towards them. They prey on the weak, the people who perceive themselves to be missing out on the fruits of our society.


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  3. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    Not sure I go along with much of this.

    There are many "believers" of one sort or another who have managed to be perfectly successful and integrate their own beliefs with those of Western society, whether they are Christian, Muslim, Jewish or whichever religion you choose to highlight (FWIW I am not religious).

    There are backward, ignorant fundamentalist forms of most religions and they seldom draw wealthy, successful, good looking and charming people towards them. They prey on the weak, the people who perceive themselves to be missing out on the fruits of our society.
    Yeah fair points. I should have been more specific in that i meant the west was a threat to particuarly hard line muslims. If their entire doctrine is based on islam being superior to all else, amd muslims being superior to all other people, then it is easy to see how a weak islamic world is a threat to them, especially when the west, built largely by christians amd jews, has been streaking ahead for centuries now and becomig so powerful that it has an enormous influence over the islamic world. That the west has evolved into a generally secular society, wirh values so fundamentally at odds of those of doctrinaire political islam, only accentuates that threat even further.

    Our very existence is an enormously powerful counter to their belief in the absolute superiority of islam, and therefore the entire basis of their beliefs, of their entire lives.

    Added to the fact that radical islam is an aggressive and expansionist religion, that is now butting up against western societies and/or power at most of its 'borders'.

    Of course there will be ofher reasons at play as well.

    Also i disagree about your point about other believers adapting their beliefs to fit with western values. This is quite a fundamental point, in that chrstians and jews didnt habe to, as they are western society, they habe evolved with western society and so the two are intimately linked, one doesmt exist without the other. That is not true of islam, or certainly not to same extent, if at all.

    People baulk at saying it, but i think islam (or radical islam) is backward, amd unenlightened in the most literal meaning. I also think some hard line christians and jews ade likewise, but the point is they are, in the West generally an extreme fringe, rafher than the mainstream as they are in much of the muslim world.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 29-05-2017 at 12:03 PM.

  4. #243
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Yeah fair points. I should have been more specific in that i meant the west was a threat to particuarly hard line muslims. If their entire doctrine is based on islam being superior to all else, amd muslims being superior to all other people, then it is easy to see how a weak islamic world is a threat to them, especially when the west, built largely by christians amd jews, has been streaking ahead for centuries now and becomig so powerful that it has an enormous influence over the islamic world. That the west has evolved into a generally secular society, wirh values so fundamentally at odds of those of doctrinaire political islam, only accentuates that threat even further.

    Our very existence is an enormously powerful counter to their belief in the absolute superiority of islam, and therefore the entire basis of their beliefs, of their entire lives.

    Added to the fact that radical islam is an aggressive and expansionist religion, that is now butting up against western societies and/or power at most of its 'borders'.

    Of course there will be ofher reasons at play as well.

    Also i disagree about your point about other believers adapting their beliefs to fit with western values. This is quite a fundamental point, in that chrstians and jews didnt habe to, as they are western society, they habe evolved with western society and so the two are intimately linked, one doesmt exist without the other. That is not true of islam, or certainly not to same extent, if at all.

    People baulk at saying it, but i think islam (or radical islam) is backward, amd unenlightened in the most literal meaning. I also think some hard line christians and jews ade likewise, but the point is they are, in the West generally an extreme fringe, rafher than the mainstream as they are in much of the muslim world.

    In their fundamental form, most religions are incompatible with modern, liberal Western life and values.

    Most religions, including Islam, have been able to evolve and are perfectly compatible with modern life.

    The form of Islam that ISIS preach, that Al Qaeda did and that nutters like that numpty that blew himself up last week follow are most certainly backward and IMO have no place in the modern world, in the Middle East or wherever.

    Whether you believe it or not, they remain an extreme fringe of the Muslim faith and are not any more representative of the millions/ billions of Muslims worldwide who abhor that sort of act than the IRA, UDA or the Westboro baptist church nutters are of you or I.

  5. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    In their fundamental form, most religions are incompatible with modern, liberal Western life and values.

    Most religions, including Islam, have been able to evolve and are perfectly compatible with modern life.

    The form of Islam that ISIS preach, that Al Qaeda did and that nutters like that numpty that blew himself up last week follow are most certainly backward and IMO have no place in the modern world, in the Middle East or wherever.

    Whether you believe it or not, they remain an extreme fringe of the Muslim faith and are not any more representative of the millions/ billions of Muslims worldwide who abhor that sort of act than the IRA, UDA or the Westboro baptist church nutters are of you or I.
    Im not sure that last bit is actually true anymore. There are islamic theocracies in major countries, i cant think of any christian countries run according to westboro principles etc

    Im not saying all muslims, but the extreme versions habe become/ are becoming more common imo.

    I can think of afghanistan, iran, saudi, egypt for a short time until the coup. And elsewhere you have major extreme factions fighting for power - iraq, syria, phillipines, libya, egypt, lebanon, sudan, mali, india, pakistan, nigeria and also turkey where it is happening through the ballot box.

    Im sure islam is capable of evolving to suit western values, but this is my point. To do so requires them to leave behind aome of the main tenets, traditions etc, and so the west is a threat to radical islam precisely because of that. They dont want them to evolve, because they are literalists.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 29-05-2017 at 01:57 PM.

  6. #245
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Im not sure that last bit is actually true anymore. There are islamic theocracies in major countries, i cant think of any christian countries run according to westboro principles etc

    Im not saying all muslims, but the extreme versions habe become/ are becoming more common imo.

    I can think of afghanistan, iran, saudi, egypt for a short time until the coup. And elsewhere you have major extreme factions fighting for power - iraq, syria, phillipines, libya, egypt, lebanon, sudan, mali, india, pakistan, nigeria and also turkey where it is happening through the ballot box.

    Im sure islam is capable of evolving to suit western values, but this is my point. To do so requires them to leave behind aome of the main tenets, traditions etc, and so the west is a threat to radical islam precisely because of that. They dont want them to evolve, because they are literalists.
    I think I (sort of) agree with you, but it all depends on how easy it is to separate radical Islam from the more moderate Islam practiced by many in the Western world.

    Many countries have been caught up by the struggle between moderate and radical Islam, and that seems to be what is going on in most of the countries you mention. I don't think it is cut and dried that one form is generally preferred over the other, it is a contentious issue and has been forever.

    I don't think Islam in it's more radical form is compatible with Western life, and as a result it is probably only practiced by a handful of people, if that, and not openly, whereas millions of moderate Muslims live amongst us and manage fine. Most people manage to get their head round the fact that if they are to live here then they have to give up certain aspects of their faith, such as polygamy and female genital mutilation.

  7. #246
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    I was reading an interesting article yesterday,that kind of debunks the suicide bomber going toto paradise thing.

    Explosives generally contain, gelletine and Glycerine....which comes from Pigs.

    So effectively the last thing that goes through their bodies is a part of a pig....meaning rejection from their so called Allah.

    Bet they dont think of that when they cause these cowardly attacks.

  8. #247
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    I was reading an interesting article yesterday,that kind of debunks the suicide bomber going toto paradise thing.

    Explosives generally contain, gelletine and Glycerine....which comes from Pigs.

    So effectively the last thing that goes through their bodies is a part of a pig....meaning rejection from their so called Allah.

    Bet they dont think of that when they cause these cowardly attacks.
    Where was this article?

  9. #248
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Where was this article?
    Sounds like the sort of thing Tommy Robinson would write.

  10. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I think I (sort of) agree with you, but it all depends on how easy it is to separate radical Islam from the more moderate Islam practiced by many in the Western world.

    Many countries have been caught up by the struggle between moderate and radical Islam, and that seems to be what is going on in most of the countries you mention. I don't think it is cut and dried that one form is generally preferred over the other, it is a contentious issue and has been forever.

    I don't think Islam in it's more radical form is compatible with Western life, and as a result it is probably only practiced by a handful of people, if that, and not openly, whereas millions of moderate Muslims live amongst us and manage fine. Most people manage to get their head round the fact that if they are to live here then they have to give up certain aspects of their faith, such as polygamy and female genital mutilation.
    Yeah agreed. Its the rising trend that is concerning. Id also say that too many muslim communities in the west dont integrate, thus making it easier for radicals to gain ground, bit integration is probably a whole different debate.

    One thing i dont see mentioned often is the general susceptibility that young men habe to radical ideas (of amy sort) - im sure there is some psychological / biologixical name, but i remembet going through a rebellious stage in my late teens/ early twenties where i got into more radical politics etc and just felt a bit discontented with the world. At this stage, most young men would be pretty easy prey for radicals.

  11. #250
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Yeah agreed. Its the rising trend that is concerning. Id also say that too many muslim communities in the west dont integrate, thus making it easier for radicals to gain ground, bit integration is probably a whole different debate.

    One thing i dont see mentioned often is the general susceptibility that young men habe to radical ideas (of amy sort) - im sure there is some psychological / biologixical name, but i remembet going through a rebellious stage in my late teens/ early twenties where i got into more radical politics etc and just felt a bit discontented with the world. At this stage, most young men would be pretty easy prey for radicals.
    The rising trend is concerning, although I'd put it down to various factors -

    The fact that we went in and knocked out baddies like Saddam Hussein and Col Gaddafi and created power vacuums. Ruthless, barbaric, autocratic dictators they may have been, they also managed to just about keep the fanatics in check. We either had no plan or were ridiculously naive about what might happen in their countries once they were gone. The influence of the radicals has grown since then.

    Modern 24 hour news coverage. These groups have always existed, we've not always given them as much oxygen of publicity within our media.



    I agree about the susceptibility of young men, but I think this needs tackled on several fronts. Poverty and inequality don't help (take your pick of the Tories, SNP or Labour threads for your solution to the poverty problem we have in this country). Young men feeling a bit disillusioned with the world are vulnerable people - the isolation that affects young, poor, Muslim men is a big problem as they are ripe for radicalisation.

    The friends I have who are Muslim aren't going to give up on their big cars, their businesses, their education, their jobs, their positions in the community, their friends or their families to blow themselves up any time soon, in spite of what Katie Hopkins might think.

  12. #251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    The rising trend is concerning, although I'd put it down to various factors -

    The fact that we went in and knocked out baddies like Saddam Hussein and Col Gaddafi and created power vacuums. Ruthless, barbaric, autocratic dictators they may have been, they also managed to just about keep the fanatics in check. We either had no plan or were ridiculously naive about what might happen in their countries once they were gone. The influence of the radicals has grown since then.

    Modern 24 hour news coverage. These groups have always existed, we've not always given them as much oxygen of publicity within our media.



    I agree about the susceptibility of young men, but I think this needs tackled on several fronts. Poverty and inequality don't help (take your pick of the Tories, SNP or Labour threads for your solution to the poverty problem we have in this country). Young men feeling a bit disillusioned with the world are vulnerable people - the isolation that affects young, poor, Muslim men is a big problem as they are ripe for radicalisation.

    The friends I have who are Muslim aren't going to give up on their big cars, their businesses, their education, their jobs, their positions in the community, their friends or their families to blow themselves up any time soon, in spite of what Katie Hopkins might think.
    Agree with you, we would have been better leaving the strong men in place (like the Russians are trying to do with Assad). But then we get pilloried for 'propping up' evil regimes or selling them arms. Like you said earlier, damned if you do, damned if you dont.

    And yeah, thats the story that is not told often enough, but yo are absolutely right. I suppose nice mr muslim who lives in fancy suburbia and is a doctor, will never grab headlines like disaffected mr muslim who blows himself and others up.

  13. #252
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Where was this article?
    Cant even remember.
    But a simple search does confirm it.

  14. #253
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan69 View Post
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    Cant even remember.
    But a simple search does confirm it.
    A simple search confirms that that well-known authority on all things right wing and heavy metal, Ted Nugent, wrote a wind-up piece suggesting it.

    http://toprightnews.com/ted-nugent-j...one-huge-fact/

    Would that be it?

    Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

  15. #254
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    German police arrest youth in Brandenburg.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40096753

    We have a poster based there!!
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  16. #255
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    A
    And yeah, thats the story that is not told often enough, but yo are absolutely right. I suppose nice mr muslim who lives in fancy suburbia and is a doctor, will never grab headlines like disaffected mr muslim who blows himself and others up.


    How about this then ....

  17. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Actually that's one of the stand out things about May at the Home Office that's carrying on into her premiership: she routinely ignores experts and does what her and her inner circle, chiefly Nick Timothy and Fiona Hill, think is right.
    Tory commentator on Osborne's Standard expands on the above:

    http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/co...-a3552341.html

  18. #257
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    German police arrest youth in Brandenburg.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40096753

    We have a poster based there!!
    Wasn't me!

    They've arrested a 17 year old based on a WhatsApp message he sent to his mum but can't confirm his country of origin. It might be something, then again it might be nothing. We'll find out soon enough.

  19. #258
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    The news footage of Eilidh MacLeod's funeral in Barra brought a tear to my eye. Fourteen year old lassie brought home from a pop concert in a coffin. What a world we inhabit.
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  20. #259
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    The news footage of Eilidh MacLeod's funeral in Barra brought a tear to my eye. Fourteen year old lassie brought home from a pop concert in a coffin. What a world we inhabit.
    Truly heartbreaking!

  21. #260
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    Truly heartbreaking!
    I'm also a fan of the man in your avatar, and he describes my feelings in The Plague, when Dr Rieux watches a little boy die in agony and is told by the priest that he should love God's plan for the world, even if he doesn't understand it. 'No, Father. I've a very different idea of love. And until my dying day I shall refuse to love a scheme of things in which children are put to torture'.
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  22. #261
    I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag... Sir David Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    The news footage of Eilidh MacLeod's funeral in Barra brought a tear to my eye. Fourteen year old lassie brought home from a pop concert in a coffin. What a world we inhabit.
    I saw this last night and I don't mind admitting that I shed a tear.

    So sad that someone who grew up in such a quiet and peaceful environment has met such a violent and brutal death.

    Such a sick, senseless act.
    HIBERNIAN F.C. - SCOTTISH CUP WINNERS 2016

    21.05.2016

  23. #262
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sir David Gray View Post
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    I saw this last night and I don't mind admitting that I shed a tear.

    So sad that someone who grew up in such a quiet and peaceful environment has met such a violent and brutal death.

    Such a sick, senseless act.
    Especially on what should have been a life-affirming adventure with her friend!

  24. #263
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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  25. #264
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    If there is any truth in the John Pilger article linked here previously then it is an absolute scandal.

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