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  1. #1

    The Celtic problem

    30 points clear at the top of the league, not a single game lost, a treble on the cards, an excellent manager who's probably too 'big' for Scottish football and the prospect of them only getting stronger next season.

    It's been an exceptional season for them, no question, but it once again raises the issue of where their utter dominance leaves top flight Scottish football. From fourth place down the other teams are closer to bottom spot than the top. Is there any league on the planet where one team is so absurdly far ahead of the rest? What, really, is the point of a league where only one team can win it?

    Celtic leaving the Scottish league to play in England is a solution commonly advocated but we would leave Scotland with an even lesser bargaining position with the TV companies and even less well off financially. My own preferred solution of creating a UK-wide league to add some variety to our rather stale game doesn't curry much favour on here, so what do folk think is the most viable way forward for our top flight?
    Last edited by G B Young; 20-05-2017 at 02:53 PM.


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  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    30 points clear at the top of the league, not a single game lost, a treble on the cards, an excellent manager who's probably too 'big' for Scottish football and the prospect of them only getting stronger next season.

    It's been an exceptional season for them, no question, but it once again raises the issue of where their utter dominance leaves top flight Scottish football. From fourth place down the other teams are closer to bottom spot than the top. Is there any league on the planet where one team is so absurdly far ahead of the rest? What, really, is the point of a league where only one team can win it?

    Celtic leaving the Scottish league to play in England is a solution commonly advocated but we would leave Scotland with an even lesser bargaining position with the TV companies and even less well off financially. My own preferred solution of creating a UK-wide league to add some variety to our rather stale game doesn't curry much favour on here, so what do folk think is the most viable way forward for our top flight?
    3rd place are also closer to the bottom than the top

  4. #3
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    I used to favour a U.K. League but it's clearly never going to happen so we need concentrate on our own league. A fairer distribution of tv money & splitting gate money would make it a level playing field. I'd also consider moving our football calendar to spring/summer where it might generate more tv money

  5. #4
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    30 points clear at the top of the league, not a single game lost, a treble on the cards, an excellent manager who's probably too 'big' for Scottish football and the prospect of them only getting stronger next season.

    It's been an exceptional season for them, no question, but it once again raises the issue of where their utter dominance leaves top flight Scottish football. From fourth place down the other teams are closer to bottom spot than the top. Is there any league on the planet where one team is so absurdly far ahead of the rest? What, really, is the point of a league where only one team can win it?

    Celtic leaving the Scottish league to play in England is a solution commonly advocated but we would leave Scotland with an even lesser bargaining position with the TV companies and even less well off financially. My own preferred solution of creating a UK-wide league to add some variety to our rather stale game doesn't curry much favour on here, so what do folk think is the most viable way forward for our top flight?
    I'm not sure about this bit.

    We have shown this year that fans will come out to watch winning teams, no matter the standard of football.

    At the moment, teams are playing for second place; it's not that long ago that they were playing for third. But, if you start the season with 6-7 teams all thinking that they have a chance of winning the league, the competition is keener, and the crowds consequently higher.

    As for the TV audiences, let's not forget that our home game against United was a virtual sell-out... a game in the second division... but it was still live on telly. The product is there.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    30 points clear at the top of the league, not a single game lost, a treble on the cards, an excellent manager who's probably too 'big' for Scottish football and the prospect of them only getting stronger next season.

    It's been an exceptional season for them, no question, but it once again raises the issue of where their utter dominance leaves top flight Scottish football. From fourth place down the other teams are closer to bottom spot than the top. Is there any league on the planet where one team is so absurdly far ahead of the rest? What, really, is the point of a league where only one team can win it?

    Celtic leaving the Scottish league to play in England is a solution commonly advocated but we would leave Scotland with an even lesser bargaining position with the TV companies and even less well off financially. My own preferred solution of creating a UK-wide league to add some variety to our rather stale game doesn't curry much favour on here, so what do folk think is the most viable way forward for our top flight?
    The Old Firm will never be allowed to come down here. The Police will never allow it.

  7. #6
    Testimonial Due Since90+2's Avatar
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    At the moment they have an exceptional manager who would not look out of place managing any club in England but Rodgers wont be there forever.

    Once Rodgers leaves in a year or so the gap will probably narrow and it will revert back to how it was under Strachan / Deila with teams winning the odd game against them. I dont know what the odds at the bookies of them winning 10 in a row are but I reckon its probably more likely to happen than not.

  8. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarlingtonHibee View Post
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    The Old Firm will never be allowed to come down here. The Police will never allow it.
    This, look at what happened the last time we let the Huns out their cage for a major game.

  9. #8
    @hibs.net private member Captain Trips's Avatar
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    I do not understand why the possibility of playing down south was justvan OF thing.

    Burnley, Watford, Hull and Swansea have an average attendance of 20k

    Bournemouth have average of 11k.

    You give us 100m+ already in a nice city to attract players as now in English league think we would do alright also actually.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jones28 View Post
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    This, look at what happened the last time we let the Huns out their cage for a major game.
    There's about 40 police forces in England, i really doubt they'll have a say on whether two Scottish football clubs could play football down there. They won't play in England as currently there is no value to English football of having the old firm down there just now, things are booming as it is.


    With regards to Celtic this season they were utter pish last season and still romped the league with 15 points....

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    I'm not sure about this bit.

    We have shown this year that fans will come out to watch winning teams, no matter the standard of football.

    At the moment, teams are playing for second place; it's not that long ago that they were playing for third. But, if you start the season with 6-7 teams all thinking that they have a chance of winning the league, the competition is keener, and the crowds consequently higher.

    As for the TV audiences, let's not forget that our home game against United was a virtual sell-out... a game in the second division... but it was still live on telly. The product is there.
    What I meant was that without Celtic as part of the package, it's hard to imagine Sky/BT Sports would offer the same deal, irrespective of whether the league is more competitive, hence clubs would likely be worse off despite decent crowds.

    While I agree the crowds ARE there, I do wonder if there would be a hollow feel to the league if its biggest club were to leave ie would there need to be an asterisk in the stats books alongside subsequent league tables to denote something like *title won post-Celtic departure? It's just my view, but once you start breaking up a league I think it would be better to go the whole hog and start something else afresh. For me that would be a UK league (and as somebody else has pointed out, Hibs would be a great away match for a lot of clubs given Edinburgh's popularity as a city) but I can't see it happening any day soon.
    Last edited by G B Young; 19-05-2017 at 09:52 AM.

  12. #11
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    Pains me to say it, but Sevco will get a stronger too and the league will return to normal pre 2012, fighting it out for 3rd place.

  13. #12
    @hibs.net private member cleanyman's Avatar
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    Celtic will fall eventually.

    All goes around in one big circle...I think Rangers will win the league within the next 3 seasons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Trips View Post
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    I do not understand why the possibility of playing down south was justvan OF thing.

    Burnley, Watford, Hull and Swansea have an average attendance of 20k

    Bournemouth have average of 11k.

    You give us 100m+ already in a nice city to attract players as now in English league think we would do alright also actually.



    Hibs is a bigger club than many in the EPL or English 2nd tier.

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    I don't really see it as a problem. It's a reality, and one that will continue to get more pronounced.

    What we need is for Scottish football fans and authorities to stop talking down our own national game as "pish" and get on with it. Engage with the local community to hopefully, over time, make a dent in the thousands who drive past their local teams' stadia en route to Parkhead or Ibrox every other weekend.

    Have a go in the big games such that some other team in Scotland get a reputation for playing good football other than Celtic.

    Under Mowbray we had no more of a chance - ultimately - of winning the league but the stadium was almost full the whole time because, win, lose or draw, the football was exciting most of the time.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by cleanyman View Post
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    Celtic will fall eventually.

    All goes around in one big circle...I think Rangers will win the league within the next 3 seasons.
    Cant see it , Celtic will get 10 in a row , Rodgers has another 4 years on his deal . Not a chance the huns are winning the league while he's there , especially not with the portuguese Cathro in charge

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    Quote Originally Posted by cleanyman View Post
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    Celtic will fall eventually.

    All goes around in one big circle...I think Rangers will win the league within the next 3 seasons.
    I suspect Scottish football will return to its 'norm' within the next decade but i'd be very surprised if Rangers win the league in the next 3 seasons. Celtic must have millions stashed away from transfer fee's, their merchandise is worth millions and is booming and Celtic Park is will pretty much be complete after their new 1m desso pitch goes in. The huns on the other hand have a crumbling Ibrox, the Sports Direct saga going on, a diddy manager and team needing rebuilt. I do expect them to finish 2nd in the next 2-3 seasons however purely due to the resources available to them (They've sold 34,000 season tickets already for next season)

  18. #17
    First Team Regular hibbiedon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    30 points clear at the top of the league, not a single game lost, a treble on the cards, an excellent manager who's probably too 'big' for Scottish football and the prospect of them only getting stronger next season.

    It's been an exceptional season for them, no question, but it once again raises the issue of where their utter dominance leaves top flight Scottish football. From fourth place down the other teams are closer to bottom spot than the top. Is there any league on the planet where one team is so absurdly far ahead of the rest? What, really, is the point of a league where only one team can win it?

    Celtic leaving the Scottish league to play in England is a solution commonly advocated but we would leave Scotland with an even lesser bargaining position with the TV companies and even less well off financially. My own preferred solution of creating a UK-wide league to add some variety to our rather stale game doesn't curry much favour on here, so what do folk think is the most viable way forward for our top flight?
    if Celtic and their blue twins leave the Scottish league, I honestly think the opposite will happen. Teams like Hibs Aberdeen hahahearts will be challenging for the title and trophies, crowds will increase, just look at easter road this season, with larger crowds sponsorship increases there is a better atmosphere and it is a better prospect for tv companies.
    Making a Uk league is a recipe for disaster. I know people like Wallace Mercer Gordon Brown etc believe in a better together future. What would happen to the national team if you don't even have a league and are not a country will FIFA allow a national Scotland team

  19. #18
    • Re-distribution of income via sponsorship/tv deals
    • Split gate receipts
    • bigger league (16 is my preference, and you can even keep the nonsense split)
    • minimum of 5 players in matchday squad to be home grown on trained by that team for x number of years


    All these would, over a period of time result in better younger players being produced by the country whilst hopefully bridging the gap.

    IMO this Celtic team isnt even the best in the last 5 years never mind ever (and the 2003 team would wipe the floor with them). The manager of course has a significant contribution and deserves massive praise for getting the best out of his players and keeping them motivated BUT basing it on when they played for Celtic:

    Forster > Gordon
    Van Dijk/Denayer/Ambrose > take your pick, any current CH
    Matthews/Lustig > current Lustig
    Ledley > Rogic
    Commons > Armstrong
    Hooper > Griffiths

    Granted there'll be exceptions, for example Scott Brown is arguably playing the best football of his life, Tierney, Dembele, Sinclair (he done well in England eh) but you've got to ask how many of these players can perform at the top level? John Guidetti was a "star" up here but flopped down south.

  20. #19
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenNWhiteArmy View Post
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    • Re-distribution of income via sponsorship/tv deals
    • Split gate receipts
    • bigger league (16 is my preference, and you can even keep the nonsense split)
    • minimum of 5 players in matchday squad to be home grown on trained by that team for x number of years


    All these would, over a period of time result in better younger players being produced by the country whilst hopefully bridging the gap.

    IMO this Celtic team isnt even the best in the last 5 years never mind ever (and the 2003 team would wipe the floor with them). The manager of course has a significant contribution and deserves massive praise for getting the best out of his players and keeping them motivated BUT basing it on when they played for Celtic:

    Forster > Gordon
    Van Dijk/Denayer/Ambrose > take your pick, any current CH
    Matthews/Lustig > current Lustig
    Ledley > Rogic
    Commons > Armstrong
    Hooper > Griffiths

    Granted there'll be exceptions, for example Scott Brown is arguably playing the best football of his life, Tierney, Dembele, Sinclair (he done well in England eh) but you've got to ask how many of these players can perform at the top level? John Guidetti was a "star" up here but flopped down south.
    Guidetti was hardly a star in Scotland scored 8 goals. The current Celtic team have a number of excellent young talents Tierney, Dembele, Roberts but guys like Armstrong and McGregor are unrecognisable under Rodgers..

  21. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by scott_b_ View Post
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    There's about 40 police forces in England, i really doubt they'll have a say on whether two Scottish football clubs could play football down there. They won't play in England as currently there is no value to English football of having the old firm down there just now, things are booming as it is.


    With regards to Celtic this season they were utter pish last season and still romped the league with 15 points....
    It was 43,maybe a few mergers since. My sources are Chief Constables.

  22. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    Guidetti was hardly a star in Scotland scored 8 goals. The current Celtic team have a number of excellent young talents Tierney, Dembele, Roberts but guys like Armstrong and McGregor are unrecognisable under Rodgers..
    Their fans slavoured over him when he was here. He actually scored 15 in all competitions. They do have excellent young talent, Roberts isnt their player and he played excellent last year when Rodgers wasn't here. McGregor actually played well last year also. Tierney and Armstrong appear to have improved significantly

  23. #22
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenNWhiteArmy View Post
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    Their fans slavoured over him when he was here. He actually scored 15 in all competitions. They do have excellent young talent, Roberts isnt their player and he played excellent last year when Rodgers wasn't here. McGregor actually played well last year also. Tierney and Armstrong appear to have improved significantly
    Not actually a sign he was any good. Think his popularity with the fans was down to him slagging off Rangers.

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member PeeKay's Avatar
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    Can't see splitting the gate money being accepted by the bigger clubs so long as clubs like Hamilton bring so little to the table - home and away.

  25. #24
    Testimonial Due Elephant Stone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreenNWhiteArmy View Post
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    • Re-distribution of income via sponsorship/tv deals
    • Split gate receipts
    • bigger league (16 is my preference, and you can even keep the nonsense split)
    • minimum of 5 players in matchday squad to be home grown on trained by that team for x number of years


    All these would, over a period of time result in better younger players being produced by the country whilst hopefully bridging the gap.

    IMO this Celtic team isnt even the best in the last 5 years never mind ever (and the 2003 team would wipe the floor with them). The manager of course has a significant contribution and deserves massive praise for getting the best out of his players and keeping them motivated BUT basing it on when they played for Celtic:

    Forster > Gordon
    Van Dijk/Denayer/Ambrose > take your pick, any current CH
    Matthews/Lustig > current Lustig
    Ledley > Rogic
    Commons > Armstrong
    Hooper > Griffiths

    Granted there'll be exceptions, for example Scott Brown is arguably playing the best football of his life, Tierney, Dembele, Sinclair (he done well in England eh) but you've got to ask how many of these players can perform at the top level? John Guidetti was a "star" up here but flopped down south.
    Van Dijk and Wanyama are the only 2 players they've lost who'd be guaranteed a place in their current team.

  26. #25
    @hibs.net private member J-C's Avatar
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    Celtic and Rangers have dominated Scottish football since Celtic came into existence, a few teams have sneaked in every now and then and won the league and some even had a good few years where they challenged regularly, Hibs(50's & 70's) Aberdeen(Fergie) and Hearts(1890's and late 50's) but in general the OF have one most things most years.

    The best we and others can expect is coming 2nd or 3rd with a very occasional league win thrown in out the blue now and then.

  27. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Elephant Stone View Post
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    Van Dijk and Wanyama are the only 2 players they've lost who'd be guaranteed a place in their current team.
    Right enough, Wanyama totally forgot about him. Cannot agree regarding the rest of the players. The ones i quoted imo are much better than current players

  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member Captain Trips's Avatar
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    One team dominating then yeah there is achance of a slip up but let The Rangers come back then thats 2 teams and we do not need that. We need to try and do better than The Rangers for me while we can.
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  29. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleanyman View Post
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    Celtic will fall eventually.

    All goes around in one big circle...I think Rangers will win the league within the next 3 seasons.
    You would get a decent return for that bet, I really cant see rangers even challenging in the next 3 years the league will be won be at least 10 points and probably more for some time yet imho.

  30. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleanyman View Post
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    Celtic will fall eventually.

    All goes around in one big circle...I think Rangers will win the league within the next 3 seasons.
    If Rodgers stays there over the next 3 years, there's not a chance Rangers are winning the league in that time.
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  31. #30
    @hibs.net private member cleanyman's Avatar
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