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  1. #1
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Get rid of politicians - a new parliament

    Now I've got your attention

    I have come across this interesting article that proposes a random selection of ordinary people becomes the parliament.


    Imagine if we chose a bunch of randomly selected people, put them in parliament, and asked them to make the laws for the next couple of years. We could easily stratify the selection to match the demographic and socio-economic profile of the country so that it would be a truly representative sample. Fifty per cent of the legislators would be women. There would be many young people, some old people, a few rich people, but mostly just normal everyday people like you and me.
    This randomly selected group would be a microcosm of society which would simulate how we would all think, if we were given the time, information and a good process to come to the moral crux of political decisions. And although you may not be selected, there would be someone of your age, someone of your gender, someone from your area, and someone with your background in the parliament. It would be a mirror of society.

    http://bright-green.org/2017/05/17/s...-21st-century/

    An interesting concept which would possibly mean the end to this forum

    I look forward to hearing what others think.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.


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  3. #2
    Testimonial Due pacoluna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Now I've got your attention

    I have come across this interesting article that proposes a random selection of ordinary people becomes the parliament.


    Imagine if we chose a bunch of randomly selected people, put them in parliament, and asked them to make the laws for the next couple of years. We could easily stratify the selection to match the demographic and socio-economic profile of the country so that it would be a truly representative sample. Fifty per cent of the legislators would be women. There would be many young people, some old people, a few rich people, but mostly just normal everyday people like you and me.
    This randomly selected group would be a microcosm of society which would simulate how we would all think, if we were given the time, information and a good process to come to the moral crux of political decisions. And although you may not be selected, there would be someone of your age, someone of your gender, someone from your area, and someone with your background in the parliament. It would be a mirror of society.

    http://bright-green.org/2017/05/17/s...-21st-century/

    An interesting concept which would possibly mean the end to this forum

    I look forward to hearing what others think.
    Cant open the link but I believe its called sortition governance. It was common in Italy prior to unification. The problem is there is no liability or legitimacy.
    Last edited by pacoluna; 17-05-2017 at 12:40 PM.

  4. #3
    @hibs.net private member The_Exile's Avatar
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    I would make it illegal to support Hearts and would extend the weekend from 2 days to 3 days. I would abolish currency and would employ everyone in the country to focus their energies into building a warp drive. Then I would sell our Nukes to North Korea and spend the money on a huge water park but instead of water, have it filled with Quavers and Skittles. If that doesn't sounds like a better world then I dunno what else to say really.

    In all seriousness though, this wouldn't work as the vast vast vast majority of people are erses and need to be silenced, not given a voice FFS

  5. #4
    Testimonial Due NYHibby's Avatar
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    The US is a perfect example of why making a random person with no qualifications the leader of a country is a bad idea.

    Edit: This system would probably make the country less democratic. The result would likely be a further concentration of power in career civil servants.
    Last edited by NYHibby; 17-05-2017 at 01:01 PM.

  6. #5
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacoluna View Post
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    Cant open the link but I believe its called sortition governance. It was common in Italy prior to unification. The problem is there is no liability or legitimacy.
    It is Sortition, and there are examples of it in current use across the world.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  7. #6
    Testimonial Due NYHibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    It is Sortition, and there are examples of it in current use across the world.
    What country actually uses this demographics based selection method to actually govern itself? The Wikipedia article doesn't list any.

  8. #7
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYHibby View Post
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    What country actually uses this demographics based selection method to actually govern itself? The Wikipedia article doesn't list any.
    I didn't say it is used to 'govern' but there are examples of its use in the article if you are interested.


    There are simply too many examples: Ireland.... Australia............. Iceland............. Canada............ G1000s groups of up to 1000 randomly selected people coming together have been held in Belgium, the Netherlands, Spain and the first one in the UK will be held in Cambridge this September.....
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  9. #8
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYHibby View Post
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    The US is a perfect example of why making a random person with no qualifications the leader of a country is a bad idea.

    Edit: This system would probably make the country less democratic. The result would likely be a further concentration of power in career civil servants.
    Read the article, it Couldn't happen as you envisage.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  10. #9
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    It would be rigged. We'd be told that it is completely "random".... but it would be about as "random" as The Rangers consistantly drawing home games in cup matches.

  11. #10
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    An interesting concept which would possibly mean the end to this forum
    I take it back NYHibby is making a good fist of keeping it going
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    It would be rigged. We'd be told that it is completely "random".... but it would be about as "random" as The Rangers consistantly drawing home games in cup matches.
    Selection like jury duty?? You don't opt in, but you might be able to opt out.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  13. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Selection like jury duty?? You don't opt in, but you might be able to opt out.
    With many poor sods "opting out" without even knowing it.

  14. #13
    Testimonial Due NYHibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    I didn't say it is used to 'govern' but there are examples of its use in the article if you are interested.
    This country already uses those type of consultative bodies in various places. None of those examples support the idea that this system could actually work as proposed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Read the article, it Couldn't happen as you envisage.
    I did read the article and it's talk of the body being a deliberative body rather than an opinion poll. The current parliament already has all of those advantages listed in the article. However, rather than having individuals selected by society as being "good" at deliberating, you are randomly picking people. How are random people better at this task than individuals specifically selected for the task by the same society?

    Inherent in this idea is that voters cannot select people to represent them appropriately. This proposal is literally based on the idea that people are bad at making decisions. Yet the people holding that view then want those people to make more decisions.

  15. #14
    I've a feeling this method of selecting office holders dates back to the origins of democracy in ancient Greece.

  16. #15
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ballengeich View Post
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    I've a feeling this method of selecting office holders dates back to the origins of democracy in ancient Greece.
    It says as much in the article
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  17. #16
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Other examples of 'alternative' politics

    http://www.syp.org.uk/

    http://www.ukyouthparliament.org.uk/
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  18. #17
    Testimonial Due NYHibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    It says as much in the article
    Which it incredibly misrepresents. Athens did not randomly choose people from the general population to run the city state. In practice the Greek equivalent of the aristocracy chose the members of the council. The system could better be described as very strict term limits.

    Attendance in the larger assembly was based on class. Anyone qualified could attend. Again no element of random selection.

  19. #18
    Coaching Staff One Day Soon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Now I've got your attention

    I have come across this interesting article that proposes a random selection of ordinary people becomes the parliament.


    Imagine if we chose a bunch of randomly selected people, put them in parliament, and asked them to make the laws for the next couple of years. We could easily stratify the selection to match the demographic and socio-economic profile of the country so that it would be a truly representative sample. Fifty per cent of the legislators would be women. There would be many young people, some old people, a few rich people, but mostly just normal everyday people like you and me.
    This randomly selected group would be a microcosm of society which would simulate how we would all think, if we were given the time, information and a good process to come to the moral crux of political decisions. And although you may not be selected, there would be someone of your age, someone of your gender, someone from your area, and someone with your background in the parliament. It would be a mirror of society.

    http://bright-green.org/2017/05/17/s...-21st-century/

    An interesting concept which would possibly mean the end to this forum

    I look forward to hearing what others think.

    Worst. Idea. Ever.

    Our politicians are uniformly crap. But who put them there? Bad enough that the electorate choose the likes of Trump, Sturgeon, May and Farage. Worse if they were directly in power themselves.

  20. #19
    @hibs.net private member snooky's Avatar
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    Nothing better than a damned good respected dictator.
    He/she might not get it right all of the time but they would sure get things done and bypass all the parliamentary BS.

  21. #20
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Nothing better than a damned good respected dictator.
    He/she might not get it right all of the time but they would sure get things done and bypass all the parliamentary BS.
    Would the trains run on time?

  22. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Nothing better than a damned good respected dictator.
    He/she might not get it right all of the time but they would sure get things done and bypass all the parliamentary BS.
    Seems to work for China...

    We will have to see how it pans out for the USA...

  23. #22
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Now I've got your attention

    I have come across this interesting article that proposes a random selection of ordinary people becomes the parliament.


    Imagine if we chose a bunch of randomly selected people, put them in parliament, and asked them to make the laws for the next couple of years. We could easily stratify the selection to match the demographic and socio-economic profile of the country so that it would be a truly representative sample. Fifty per cent of the legislators would be women. There would be many young people, some old people, a few rich people, but mostly just normal everyday people like you and me.
    This randomly selected group would be a microcosm of society which would simulate how we would all think, if we were given the time, information and a good process to come to the moral crux of political decisions. And although you may not be selected, there would be someone of your age, someone of your gender, someone from your area, and someone with your background in the parliament. It would be a mirror of society.

    http://bright-green.org/2017/05/17/s...-21st-century/

    An interesting concept which would possibly mean the end to this forum

    I look forward to hearing what others think.
    It's certainly an interesting idea. Would the participants be chosen via something like a lottery? Problem could be that random representatives runs the risk of people totally unqualified or unsuitable being placed into such positions. How could we avoid that?

    Wouldn't we be better cutting out the middle men and middle women and going to a form of anarchism? Rather than tweaking the way ruling elites are chosen, might abolition be preferable if we're serious about true representation? There's another can of worms opened
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    It's certainly an interesting idea. Would the participants be chosen via something like a lottery? Problem could be that random representatives runs the risk of people totally unqualified or unsuitable being placed into such positions. How could we avoid that?

    Wouldn't we be better cutting out the middle men and middle women and going to a form of anarchism? Rather than tweaking the way ruling elites are chosen, might abolition be preferable if we're serious about true representation? There's another can of worms opened
    Some might argue we already have unsuitable and unqualified representation. But I couldn't comment.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

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