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Thread: SNP nonsense

  1. #1261
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeeRussell View Post
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    The EU one was closer - by how much? Enough that it warrants another spin anymore than any other referendum?

    individual countries voting differently - ironic but correct. Still don't see that gives a better case for another vote ahead of any other referendums.

    polls that show opinion has shifted to remain - hasn't opinion shifted in Scotland re independence as well?

    I think the biggest case for another go is all the misinformation (not getting into the "lie" debate) etc.. which again applies (and then some) in the Scottish independence case too.

    I don't know what your political leanings are, but your post reads to me like someone who really wants to remain but really doesn't want Scotland to get another chance at independence?

    And apologies for the formatting of my quoting... I'm no great at this
    Closer - The EU one was almost 3x closer. 51.89% v 48.11% (3.78% gap) compared to 55.3% v 44.7% (10.6% gap) (although that is an example of making stats appear more damning than the reality if I ever seen one - both broadly similar, but the EU one was still closer).

    Countries - I'd agree it was a fairly irrelevant point, just that I think it complicates the situation.

    Opinion - I don't think. I think it still polls at No.

    I voted remain and yes - I've seen the mess we're now in and certainly still want us to remain and wouldn't know how I'd vote in a second referendum at the moment; I'm probably still leaning towards yes, but I just don't want another vote on it - I just think that we'd be far better off leaving constitutional debates to rest for now (apart from the second EU vote ) and getting on with things. A strong left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland across a long period of time would then pave the way to a better arguement for indy.

    I think if we ran both polls again now the results would be remain and no - which is also a good reason to rethink the EU one and not waste time (that sounds more flippant than I intended) on the Scottish one.
    Mon the Hibs.


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  3. #1262
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    Closer - The EU one was almost 3x closer. 51.89% v 48.11% (3.78% gap) compared to 55.3% v 44.7% (10.6% gap) (although that is an example of making stats appear more damning than the reality if I ever seen one - both broadly similar, but the EU one was still closer).

    Countries - I'd agree it was a fairly irrelevant point, just that I think it complicates the situation.

    Opinion - I don't think. I think it still polls at No.

    I voted remain and yes - I've seen the mess we're now in and certainly still want us to remain and wouldn't know how I'd vote in a second referendum at the moment; I'm probably still leaning towards yes, but I just don't want another vote on it - I just think that we'd be far better off leaving constitutional debates to rest for now (apart from the second EU vote ) and getting on with things. A strong left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland across a long period of time would then pave the way to a better arguement for indy.

    I think if we ran both polls again now the results would be remain and no - which is also a good reason to rethink the EU one and not waste time (that sounds more flippant than I intended) on the Scottish one.
    What do you think the likelihood of a second EU vote occuring is? What good is a left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland, when people continue to attack them for things that they don't have any influence over? Not to mention the powers that are about to be revoked from the Scottish Parliament that were protected under EU legislation.

    Nobody in a million years ever thought the YES campaign would get the level of support that they did. Almost everybody thought the idea of an independence referendum at the time was ridiculous, because there was just "no interest".

    I'm not convinced for one moment that if another independence referendum was held that it would be a "no" result. So much has changed in so little time that it's no longer the same question anymore.

  4. #1263
    With the fiasco of Brexit still rumbing on for years , referendums should be made illegal and anyone who even mentions the word put infront of a firing squad .

  5. #1264
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    What do you think the likelihood of a second EU vote occuring is? What good is a left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland, when people continue to attack them for things that they don't have any influence over? Not to mention the powers that are about to be revoked from the Scottish Parliament that were protected under EU legislation.

    Nobody in a million years ever thought the YES campaign would get the level of support that they did. Almost everybody thought the idea of an independence referendum at the time was ridiculous, because there was just "no interest".

    I'm not convinced for one moment that if another independence referendum was held that it would be a "no" result. So much has changed in so little time that it's no longer the same question anymore.
    I've no idea of the likelihood, but I feel it's gotten progressively more likely over time. I would still say it's unlikely though.

    As for what good is a left leaning government showing positive results... I would have to say, what is bad about a government showing positive results? Surely that's what everyone should be after (less the left-leaning part) at the end of the day? I want the SNP to do well for Scotland and I want the Tories to do well for the UK - irrespective of the various constitutional debates.
    Mon the Hibs.

  6. #1265
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    I've no idea of the likelihood, but I feel it's gotten progressively more likely over time. I would still say it's unlikely though.

    As for what good is a left leaning government showing positive results... I would have to say, what is bad about a government showing positive results? Surely that's what everyone should be after (less the left-leaning part) at the end of the day? I want the SNP to do well for Scotland and I want the Tories to do well for the UK - irrespective of the various constitutional debates.
    You know that's not what I meant. The Scottish Government will forever be attacked on things that they couldn't possibly have any influence over. The most effective ammunition the UK Government has over the Scottish Parliament is the sheer lack of understanding from most people on what can be influenced and what can't. The powers in which they withhold have a direct impact on the powers that aren't. People put pressure on the Scottish Government to make the most out of the powers they have, but it's nowhere near as simple as that. The Parliaments inability to change certain things, prevents them from changing other things that they have the power to change, without it having a detrimental impact.

    But who really ever takes the time to consider this issue?

  7. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    What do you think the likelihood of a second EU vote occuring is? What good is a left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland, when people continue to attack them for things that they don't have any influence over? Not to mention the powers that are about to be revoked from the Scottish Parliament that were protected under EU legislation.

    Nobody in a million years ever thought the YES campaign would get the level of support that they did. Almost everybody thought the idea of an independence referendum at the time was ridiculous, because there was just "no interest".

    I'm not convinced for one moment that if another independence referendum was held that it would be a "no" result. So much has changed in so little time that it's no longer the same question anymore.
    What powers are being revoked from Holyrood?

    And you are completely wrong about the first referendum - there were many, many people in the SNP and out who didn't think the idea was bonkers, and many thought they could win. I accept that there were also many who wouldn't have thought they would get the support they did though.

    It's a bit of a straw man argument from you though.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 03-10-2018 at 04:27 PM.

  8. #1267
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    What powers are being revoked from Holyrood?

    And you are completely wrong about the first referendum - there were many, many people in the SNP and out who didn't think the idea was bonkers, and many thought they could win. I accept that there were also many who wouldn't have thought they would get the support they did though.

    It's a bit of a straw man argument from you though.
    They're going to be taking money out of the hands of the Scottish Government and directly giving it to local councils. Something that they couldn't do previously under EU Legislation. It may seem like a good idea at first glance. However, we're now relying on the UK Government to decide which level of funding is necessary and where. I wonder which councils will have their funding requests met and which ones will not.

    You're correct that closer to the end of the campaign, there were plenty of people who thought this. However, closer to the beginning of the campaign, the possibility of their being a favourable result in favour of independence was considered ludacris. High profile figures that backed the union didn't step in until the latter half of the campaign when they started seeing the shift in the polls.

    Are you sure you understand the straw man concept?

  9. #1268
    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    Closer - The EU one was almost 3x closer. 51.89% v 48.11% (3.78% gap) compared to 55.3% v 44.7% (10.6% gap) (although that is an example of making stats appear more damning than the reality if I ever seen one - both broadly similar, but the EU one was still closer).

    Countries - I'd agree it was a fairly irrelevant point, just that I think it complicates the situation.

    Opinion - I don't think. I think it still polls at No.

    I voted remain and yes - I've seen the mess we're now in and certainly still want us to remain and wouldn't know how I'd vote in a second referendum at the moment; I'm probably still leaning towards yes, but I just don't want another vote on it - I just think that we'd be far better off leaving constitutional debates to rest for now (apart from the second EU vote ) and getting on with things. A strong left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland across a long period of time would then pave the way to a better arguement for indy.

    I think if we ran both polls again now the results would be remain and no - which is also a good reason to rethink the EU one and not waste time (that sounds more flippant than I intended) on the Scottish one.
    Fair enough response Dan Right now I'd bite your hand off for either

  10. #1269
    johnbc70
    Left by mutual consent!
    https://theweeflea.com/2018/10/16/th...-independence/

    Interesting take on it all, well it will be for some and for others it will obviously be a load of rubbish.

    I do think the SNP support of the people's vote seems to have been largely ignored. As the article states does that mean if we ever got a Yes vote we then get another vote on the terms of the break up deal?

    If you think Brexit is complicated wait until you try and break up a union where we have shared currency, greater trade links and deeper integrated government machinery etc.

    But at least we would get another vote on the terms of the deal....

  11. #1270
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    If you think Brexit is complicated wait until you try and break up a union where we have shared currency, greater trade links and deeper integrated government machinery etc.
    We may decide that we no longer wish to share that currency after the impact it will undoubtedly face after a hard brexit. As for the greater trade links, in a lot of cases the UK is merely the middle man between Scotland and the European Union. Our trade links with the UK are going to look rather different if UK/EU trade deals break down. If the integrated government machinery includes things like trident, then i'm sure many will be delighted to see the back of them.

  12. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    We may decide that we no longer wish to share that currency after the impact it will undoubtedly face after a hard brexit. As for the greater trade links, in a lot of cases the UK is merely the middle man between Scotland and the European Union. Our trade links with the UK are going to look rather different if UK/EU trade deals break down. If the integrated government machinery includes things like trident, then i'm sure many will be delighted to see the back of them.
    So if the currency is crap we will just use a different one, our trade really isn’t with rUK so we’ll just cut out the middle man and stuff trident anyway.

    Cool.

  13. #1272
    johnbc70
    Left by mutual consent!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    We may decide that we no longer wish to share that currency after the impact it will undoubtedly face after a hard brexit. As for the greater trade links, in a lot of cases the UK is merely the middle man between Scotland and the European Union. Our trade links with the UK are going to look rather different if UK/EU trade deals break down. If the integrated government machinery includes things like trident, then i'm sure many will be delighted to see the back of them.
    I am talking about direct trade links with the rest of the UK. It's nearly 4 times the size of our trade with the EU. I don't think the UK is the middle man in trade with itself.

    What about the main thrust of the article though?

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