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Thread: SNP nonsense

  1. #1261
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WeeRussell View Post
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    The EU one was closer - by how much? Enough that it warrants another spin anymore than any other referendum?

    individual countries voting differently - ironic but correct. Still don't see that gives a better case for another vote ahead of any other referendums.

    polls that show opinion has shifted to remain - hasn't opinion shifted in Scotland re independence as well?

    I think the biggest case for another go is all the misinformation (not getting into the "lie" debate) etc.. which again applies (and then some) in the Scottish independence case too.

    I don't know what your political leanings are, but your post reads to me like someone who really wants to remain but really doesn't want Scotland to get another chance at independence?

    And apologies for the formatting of my quoting... I'm no great at this
    Closer - The EU one was almost 3x closer. 51.89% v 48.11% (3.78% gap) compared to 55.3% v 44.7% (10.6% gap) (although that is an example of making stats appear more damning than the reality if I ever seen one - both broadly similar, but the EU one was still closer).

    Countries - I'd agree it was a fairly irrelevant point, just that I think it complicates the situation.

    Opinion - I don't think. I think it still polls at No.

    I voted remain and yes - I've seen the mess we're now in and certainly still want us to remain and wouldn't know how I'd vote in a second referendum at the moment; I'm probably still leaning towards yes, but I just don't want another vote on it - I just think that we'd be far better off leaving constitutional debates to rest for now (apart from the second EU vote ) and getting on with things. A strong left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland across a long period of time would then pave the way to a better arguement for indy.

    I think if we ran both polls again now the results would be remain and no - which is also a good reason to rethink the EU one and not waste time (that sounds more flippant than I intended) on the Scottish one.
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  3. #1262
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    Closer - The EU one was almost 3x closer. 51.89% v 48.11% (3.78% gap) compared to 55.3% v 44.7% (10.6% gap) (although that is an example of making stats appear more damning than the reality if I ever seen one - both broadly similar, but the EU one was still closer).

    Countries - I'd agree it was a fairly irrelevant point, just that I think it complicates the situation.

    Opinion - I don't think. I think it still polls at No.

    I voted remain and yes - I've seen the mess we're now in and certainly still want us to remain and wouldn't know how I'd vote in a second referendum at the moment; I'm probably still leaning towards yes, but I just don't want another vote on it - I just think that we'd be far better off leaving constitutional debates to rest for now (apart from the second EU vote ) and getting on with things. A strong left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland across a long period of time would then pave the way to a better arguement for indy.

    I think if we ran both polls again now the results would be remain and no - which is also a good reason to rethink the EU one and not waste time (that sounds more flippant than I intended) on the Scottish one.
    What do you think the likelihood of a second EU vote occuring is? What good is a left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland, when people continue to attack them for things that they don't have any influence over? Not to mention the powers that are about to be revoked from the Scottish Parliament that were protected under EU legislation.

    Nobody in a million years ever thought the YES campaign would get the level of support that they did. Almost everybody thought the idea of an independence referendum at the time was ridiculous, because there was just "no interest".

    I'm not convinced for one moment that if another independence referendum was held that it would be a "no" result. So much has changed in so little time that it's no longer the same question anymore.

  4. #1263
    With the fiasco of Brexit still rumbing on for years , referendums should be made illegal and anyone who even mentions the word put infront of a firing squad .

  5. #1264
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    What do you think the likelihood of a second EU vote occuring is? What good is a left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland, when people continue to attack them for things that they don't have any influence over? Not to mention the powers that are about to be revoked from the Scottish Parliament that were protected under EU legislation.

    Nobody in a million years ever thought the YES campaign would get the level of support that they did. Almost everybody thought the idea of an independence referendum at the time was ridiculous, because there was just "no interest".

    I'm not convinced for one moment that if another independence referendum was held that it would be a "no" result. So much has changed in so little time that it's no longer the same question anymore.
    I've no idea of the likelihood, but I feel it's gotten progressively more likely over time. I would still say it's unlikely though.

    As for what good is a left leaning government showing positive results... I would have to say, what is bad about a government showing positive results? Surely that's what everyone should be after (less the left-leaning part) at the end of the day? I want the SNP to do well for Scotland and I want the Tories to do well for the UK - irrespective of the various constitutional debates.
    Mon the Hibs.

  6. #1265
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    I've no idea of the likelihood, but I feel it's gotten progressively more likely over time. I would still say it's unlikely though.

    As for what good is a left leaning government showing positive results... I would have to say, what is bad about a government showing positive results? Surely that's what everyone should be after (less the left-leaning part) at the end of the day? I want the SNP to do well for Scotland and I want the Tories to do well for the UK - irrespective of the various constitutional debates.
    You know that's not what I meant. The Scottish Government will forever be attacked on things that they couldn't possibly have any influence over. The most effective ammunition the UK Government has over the Scottish Parliament is the sheer lack of understanding from most people on what can be influenced and what can't. The powers in which they withhold have a direct impact on the powers that aren't. People put pressure on the Scottish Government to make the most out of the powers they have, but it's nowhere near as simple as that. The Parliaments inability to change certain things, prevents them from changing other things that they have the power to change, without it having a detrimental impact.

    But who really ever takes the time to consider this issue?

  7. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    What do you think the likelihood of a second EU vote occuring is? What good is a left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland, when people continue to attack them for things that they don't have any influence over? Not to mention the powers that are about to be revoked from the Scottish Parliament that were protected under EU legislation.

    Nobody in a million years ever thought the YES campaign would get the level of support that they did. Almost everybody thought the idea of an independence referendum at the time was ridiculous, because there was just "no interest".

    I'm not convinced for one moment that if another independence referendum was held that it would be a "no" result. So much has changed in so little time that it's no longer the same question anymore.
    What powers are being revoked from Holyrood?

    And you are completely wrong about the first referendum - there were many, many people in the SNP and out who didn't think the idea was bonkers, and many thought they could win. I accept that there were also many who wouldn't have thought they would get the support they did though.

    It's a bit of a straw man argument from you though.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 03-10-2018 at 04:27 PM.

  8. #1267
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    What powers are being revoked from Holyrood?

    And you are completely wrong about the first referendum - there were many, many people in the SNP and out who didn't think the idea was bonkers, and many thought they could win. I accept that there were also many who wouldn't have thought they would get the support they did though.

    It's a bit of a straw man argument from you though.
    They're going to be taking money out of the hands of the Scottish Government and directly giving it to local councils. Something that they couldn't do previously under EU Legislation. It may seem like a good idea at first glance. However, we're now relying on the UK Government to decide which level of funding is necessary and where. I wonder which councils will have their funding requests met and which ones will not.

    You're correct that closer to the end of the campaign, there were plenty of people who thought this. However, closer to the beginning of the campaign, the possibility of their being a favourable result in favour of independence was considered ludacris. High profile figures that backed the union didn't step in until the latter half of the campaign when they started seeing the shift in the polls.

    Are you sure you understand the straw man concept?

  9. #1268
    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    Closer - The EU one was almost 3x closer. 51.89% v 48.11% (3.78% gap) compared to 55.3% v 44.7% (10.6% gap) (although that is an example of making stats appear more damning than the reality if I ever seen one - both broadly similar, but the EU one was still closer).

    Countries - I'd agree it was a fairly irrelevant point, just that I think it complicates the situation.

    Opinion - I don't think. I think it still polls at No.

    I voted remain and yes - I've seen the mess we're now in and certainly still want us to remain and wouldn't know how I'd vote in a second referendum at the moment; I'm probably still leaning towards yes, but I just don't want another vote on it - I just think that we'd be far better off leaving constitutional debates to rest for now (apart from the second EU vote ) and getting on with things. A strong left leaning government showing positive results in the areas they can influence in Scotland across a long period of time would then pave the way to a better arguement for indy.

    I think if we ran both polls again now the results would be remain and no - which is also a good reason to rethink the EU one and not waste time (that sounds more flippant than I intended) on the Scottish one.
    Fair enough response Dan Right now I'd bite your hand off for either

  10. #1269
    johnbc70
    Left by mutual consent!
    https://theweeflea.com/2018/10/16/th...-independence/

    Interesting take on it all, well it will be for some and for others it will obviously be a load of rubbish.

    I do think the SNP support of the people's vote seems to have been largely ignored. As the article states does that mean if we ever got a Yes vote we then get another vote on the terms of the break up deal?

    If you think Brexit is complicated wait until you try and break up a union where we have shared currency, greater trade links and deeper integrated government machinery etc.

    But at least we would get another vote on the terms of the deal....

  11. #1270
    @hibs.net private member Fife-Hibee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    If you think Brexit is complicated wait until you try and break up a union where we have shared currency, greater trade links and deeper integrated government machinery etc.
    We may decide that we no longer wish to share that currency after the impact it will undoubtedly face after a hard brexit. As for the greater trade links, in a lot of cases the UK is merely the middle man between Scotland and the European Union. Our trade links with the UK are going to look rather different if UK/EU trade deals break down. If the integrated government machinery includes things like trident, then i'm sure many will be delighted to see the back of them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    We may decide that we no longer wish to share that currency after the impact it will undoubtedly face after a hard brexit. As for the greater trade links, in a lot of cases the UK is merely the middle man between Scotland and the European Union. Our trade links with the UK are going to look rather different if UK/EU trade deals break down. If the integrated government machinery includes things like trident, then i'm sure many will be delighted to see the back of them.
    So if the currency is crap we will just use a different one, our trade really isnít with rUK so weíll just cut out the middle man and stuff trident anyway.

    Cool.

  13. #1272
    johnbc70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fife-Hibee View Post
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    We may decide that we no longer wish to share that currency after the impact it will undoubtedly face after a hard brexit. As for the greater trade links, in a lot of cases the UK is merely the middle man between Scotland and the European Union. Our trade links with the UK are going to look rather different if UK/EU trade deals break down. If the integrated government machinery includes things like trident, then i'm sure many will be delighted to see the back of them.
    I am talking about direct trade links with the rest of the UK. It's nearly 4 times the size of our trade with the EU. I don't think the UK is the middle man in trade with itself.

    What about the main thrust of the article though?

  14. #1273
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  15. #1274
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    I don't have much experience of Jackson Carlaw, but the small amount I do has been negative. His comments at the end of that article don't even make sense.

  16. #1275
    @hibs.net private member Moulin Yarns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Future17 View Post
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    I don't have much experience of Jackson Carlaw, but the small amount I do has been negative. His comments at the end of that article don't even make sense.
    Nowt but point scoring
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Nowt but point scoring
    What? A political scoring points regarding their opponents having to refer themselves to a standards panel...whatever next!

    As it is his comments are aimed at the fact that he believes Sturgeon has not been overly effective in dealing with the matter (seems reasonable enough considering her move today), and as the parameters of the standards investigation are still to be set heís suggesting that they should be set appropriately to allow the investigation to be a proper one rather than very narrowly and thus just paying lip service, which again seems reasonable and clear enough.

    His last paragraph is, I grant you, not entirely clear but again I would suggest that heís stating that the rather important matter of the first minsters conduct in the sorry affair is clearly and properly answered. I donít think that ranks as wider and more important than the allegations themselves but itís not entirely clear if that what he is comparing against.

    Iím not entirely sure what you would expect him to say or do in such a situation...Sturgeon has got herself into a bit of a mess here and has been forced to refer her conduct to an independent review to confirm her conduct was appropriate...fertile ground for opposition parties I would suggest and maybe the focus should be more on how she has managed to let that happen rather than the responses to such an event?

  18. #1277
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    I think all parties will need to tread carefully as they try to work out how best to capitalise on this situation.

    2 people have complained of sexual harassment - political opportunism (as Carlaw seems to be wanting to go for here) could very easily backfire into a PR disaster for him and the Tories.

    It's hard to say without knowing the full story and the released information gives little away, but I'm not sure what Sturgeon has done wrong.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Moulin Yarns View Post
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    Nowt but point scoring
    I imagine if this was a Labour or Tory in same situation there would be plenty of point scoring from the SNP.

    Personally I think this is the end for Sturgeon.

  20. #1279
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    I imagine if this was a Labour or Tory in same situation there would be plenty of point scoring from the SNP.

    Personally I think this is the end for Sturgeon.
    I agree, if it was a politician of any other party the SNP diehards here would be all over it. Iíll disagree about it being the end for Sturgeon though. She has done the right thing here. I am fairly confident she has done nothing wrong either.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
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    Grabs the mic to tell us,
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  21. #1280
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    I agree, if it was a politician of any other party the SNP diehards here would be all over it. Iíll disagree about it being the end for Sturgeon though. She has done the right thing here. I am fairly confident she has done nothing wrong either.
    Ah, for once we agree.


    Now, that tory dark money that's been on the go for months.


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  22. #1281
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    I imagine if this was a Labour or Tory in same situation there would be plenty of point scoring from the SNP.

    Personally I think this is the end for Sturgeon.
    The end?


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  23. #1282
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I think all parties will need to tread carefully as they try to work out how best to capitalise on this situation.

    2 people have complained of sexual harassment - political opportunism (as Carlaw seems to be wanting to go for here) could very easily backfire into a PR disaster for him and the Tories.

    It's hard to say without knowing the full story and the released information gives little away, but I'm not sure what Sturgeon has done wrong.
    As a former solicitor and a heid screwed on politician I'm sure she will have been only too aware of what she was doing and making sure nothing untoward happened.
    Space to let

  24. #1283
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    The end?
    She may resign. Any breach of the ministerial code and she has to go.

  25. #1284
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    She may resign. Any breach of the ministerial code and she has to go.
    I think you'll be waiting a while.


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  26. #1285
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I think you'll be waiting a while.
    You may be right, we will see.

    However we must not forget the women who made the complaints in the first place. The whole process has turned into a circus by Salmond and the Scottish Government. It's all been very unfortunate for pretty much everyone involved.

  27. #1286
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    You may be right, we will see.

    However we must not forget the women who made the complaints in the first place. The whole process has turned into a circus by Salmond and the Scottish Government. It's all been very unfortunate for pretty much everyone involved.
    I'd suggest, the UK civil service have more to do with this than those you allude to. MacKinnon, and Evans to name but two.

    As you say though, time will tell.


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  28. #1287
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    As a former solicitor and a heid screwed on politician I'm sure she will have been only too aware of what she was doing and making sure nothing untoward happened.
    It is a fairly unique situation though, without any sort of precedent and there are conflicts of interest everywhere. Having any idea what is the right thing to do is hard enough before considering how to go about actually doing the right thing every step of the way.

  29. #1288
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I'd suggest, the UK civil service have more to do with this than those you allude to. MacKinnon, and Evans to name but two.

    As you say though, time will tell.
    It would have been interesting to see if Salmond had 'won' if the Scottish Government had not made such a cock up of the whole process. (wrong phrase in light of the complaint maybe)

  30. #1289
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by James310 View Post
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    It would have been interesting to see if Salmond had 'won' if the Scottish Government had not made such a cock up of the whole process. (wrong phrase in light of the complaint maybe)
    It does seem rather strange that the UK civil service working in the Scottish government, sat on those e mails for several months, and only found them in December, when instructed to release the contents.

    Very strange indeed.


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  31. #1290
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    It does seem rather strange that the UK civil service working in the Scottish government, sat on those e mails for several months, and only found them in December, when instructed to release the contents.

    Very strange indeed.
    I know why you refer them as the UK Civil service as you think it somehow transfers the blame to the UK and Westminster, is that right? If so that is a bit petty.

    Leslie Evans was appointed by the Scottish Government who had the final say on her appointment and she is accountable to the Scottish Government.

    The below is from the Scottish Government.

    ďThe First Minister of Scotland makes the final decision, following consultation with the Head of the Civil Service and the First Civil Service Commissioner (Panel Chair in this case).Ē

    Thus the appointment of the Permanent Secretary, and therefore Leslie Evans, is by the First Minister of Scotland, and she is answerable to Scottish Ministers"

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