'Gallant losers are losers'...Was Lennon right to blast the players?

[Greenworld]

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The one upfront for the first half hour was a significant factor in our first half hour performance where we couldn't string two passes together or get out of our own half..

Nonsense speak to our manager he will talk you through it calum . It's done and dusted mate look forward to next season exciting times ahead with the team and stadium

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[blackpoolhibs]

If things were going well, and we were only 2 down because of individual errors, why did we change the formation?

[Greenworld]

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If things were going well, and we were only 2 down because of individual errors, why did we change the formation?

Because we were two down

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[blackpoolhibs]

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Because we were two down

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I know that, but surely if the manager was happy with the way we were playing with his formation, he'd keep it going as we still had 70 minutes or so to get back into the game.

Unless he thought as i think, we'd more chance of biting our own arse playing one up front, and he needed to give us someone up front who could hold the ball up so our midfield could get up the park.

[Greenworld]

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I know that, but surely if the manager was happy with the way we were playing with his formation, he'd keep it going as we still had 70 minutes or so to get back into the game.

Unless he thought as i think, we'd more chance of biting our own arse playing one up front, and he needed to give us someone up front who could hold the ball up so our midfield could get up the park.

I'm not being cheeky but at two down you obviously need to change .we did went more direct which we have done before. You could argue we should have started that way.
But that would otherwise have stopped the individual errors

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[blackpoolhibs]

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I'm not being cheeky but at two down you obviously need to change .we did went more direct which we have done before. You could argue we should have started that way.
But that would otherwise have stopped the individual errors

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Lennon cant be blamed for any individual errors, but im going to sound like Cathro here, but take away the goals and we were still playing poorly.

The one up front was not working, Cummings was not getting any of the ball, and they were in complete control, and any ball we had was between our midfielders passing it more often than not backwards as we had nothing up front to hit.

Even if we were 0-0, i'd have been astounded if he would have kept the same formation, as we were inviting them on and were hanging on, we were saying it could get embarrassing.

As it was, we did change and changed for the better as we all saw, and were unlucky not to go on and win.

[cmcd]

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Wrong. His starting line up was negative and not set up to win the game. Team showed tremendous character and once the formation changes were made we were by far the better team.
Lennon should back his players.

Some of the comments on here are just unbelievable.One up front wasn't working because our defenders were just punting the ball up in the air .I'm sure NL didn't tell them to do that .They should know themselves that Cummings was never going to win those balls .Also you can't blame NL for the horrendous individual mistakes. The best managers in the World make mistakes and so do the keyboard managers on here

[truehibernian]

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Some of the comments on here are just unbelievable.One up front wasn't working because our defenders were just punting the ball up in the air .I'm sure NL didn't tell them to do that .They should know themselves that Cummings was never going to win those balls .Also you can't blame NL for the horrendous individual mistakes. The best managers in the World make mistakes and so do the keyboard managers on here

To be fair I think you are right and wrong. The fact we went (essentially) 4-5-1 meant DM knew we were our to absorb pressure and counter. Very strange having JC up top on his own given the Dons 'weakness' was in central defence. I honestly thought NL would adopt the same tactic/approach as he did in the Hearts replay and press/occupy the opposition defence.

Absolutely agree, nothing legislates for Darren's error first minute......but I think when a team knows that there is only one striker, and our set up is rather narrow, you're inviting pressure regardless.

Play two strikers, or at least play one striker and two wingers - it's Scottish football - occupy and make defenders work.

[Eyrie]

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What I'm saying is that we can't say how the game would have stayed had a) Aberdeen not got a massive lift from the immediate goal, and b) Hibs weren't so rocked by conceding an immediate goal.

Imagine McGinn had evaded the initial tackles and we scored right from kick off, do you think the next twenty minutes of the have would have played out the same as they actually did?

Yes, because Aberdeen would still have had most of the possession and our midfield would have still lacked time on the ball to find Cummings.

Would have been some goal by McGinn though, beating five players in the centre circle, then driving at their defence and beating their keeper with a long range shot

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Because we were two down

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But if we were only two nil down due to individual errors then there was no need to change the formation because it was clearly working and there was still an hour to play.

Alternatively, the formation wasn't working and that was why there was a need to change it.

I prefer the obvious explanation to inventing excuses based on Lennon blaming the players and not acknowledging that his own actions were an acceptance that his initial tactics were a contributory factor.

[Greenworld]

I prefer the obvious explanation to inventing excuses based on Lennon blaming the players and not acknowledging that his own actions were an acceptance that his initial tactics were a contributory factor


You prefer your version of the event.


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[matty_f]

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Yes, because Aberdeen would still have had most of the possession and our midfield would have still lacked time on the ball to find Cummings.

Would have been some goal by McGinn though, beating five players in the centre circle, then driving at their defence and beating their keeper with a long range shot


But if we were only two nil down due to individual errors then there was no need to change the formation because it was clearly working and there was still an hour to play.

Alternatively, the formation wasn't working and that was why there was a need to change it.

I prefer the obvious explanation to inventing excuses based on Lennon blaming the players and not acknowledging that his own actions were an acceptance that his initial tactics were a contributory factor.

How do you know Aberdeen would have had most of the possession?

[Johnny Clash]

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He's absolutely right.

I remember Alex Ferguson blasting his Aberdeen players for a lack lustre display after they had beaten Rangers to WIN the cup.

That's the kind of prodessional attitude I want from our manager.

The fans can be gallant losers, if they want. Neil Lennon is a winner.

Spot on, Hibby Radge.

I'm just not sure about the phrase that's getting used: 'gallant losers'. I'm gutted to lose but appreciate everything our club has done.

I think our players will benefit from a Neil Lennon's strong words coz we need to help players become mentally stronger. What Neil then says in the dressing room behind closed doors is another thing. It's clear he has the respect and support of the players which is great!

[Spike Mandela]

In sport there are winners and losers. That IS sport.

You can whinge and moan when you lose or you can show class, shake hands and hold your head high. Sauzee had that class, Hibs class, realised that the game was a war but a 'friendly war', always with respect for the opposition.

Gallant losers ARE losers.........but so are sore losers.

[emerald green]

Here's what Dylan McGeouch had to say:


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...lity-1-4427409

[221000]

What I'd like to know about this whole Lennon's tactical error Vs Individual errors discussion is ..... was it a plan for SJM to try a dribble straight from the KO? If so, I assume that was planned and agreed with the management team of NL & GP? If that was the case this is bonkers IMO and where the real mistake was made. In a big game like a Cup semi-final, from the off you want to get territory. Do what we do in 99% of the other games at KO, play a ball long and wide, contest a header, maybe winning a thrown in, in an attacking position on the edge of the opponent's box. Instead we lose the ball (as you might predict with one player trying to dribble the ball through 3 opposition players!), our Midfield look surprised and on the back foot by this (hence my original question about this being a planned move from KO) and then to compound matters DM makes a terrible mistake and we lose a goal.

I think that set the whole tone for the first 20-30 mins of the game and we took this time to get over the shock of losing the goal. Had we NOT lost a goal, or possibly even scored first, who knows how NL's original formation and tactics would have worked out. We may have settled much better, been more confident in possession, Aberdeen players may have got spooked a bit and we may have controlled the game. As opposed to being very much on the back foot.

So, in summary I think it's impossible to state as if it were fact NL "got it wrong". What he did do, was react to the situation as it was - we were 2 down and had to change something, anything, just to get a reaction. And we did. And possibly should have won the game, had it not been for a massive stroke of bad luck with the deflection. I like NL's attitude to losing a game we could, and possibly should, have won. I'm sure privately he's told the players the last 60 mins was a good performance and comeback but he's right - the mistakes were pathetic.

That all said - our comeback and the way we competed with Aberdeen for 60 minutes bodes well for next season I'd say. Onwards and upwards .....

[eastcoasthibby]

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To be fair I think you are right and wrong. The fact we went (essentially) 4-5-1 meant DM knew we were our to absorb pressure and counter. Very strange having JC up top on his own given the Dons 'weakness' was in central defence. I honestly thought NL would adopt the same tactic/approach as he did in the Hearts replay and press/occupy the opposition defence.

Absolutely agree, nothing legislates for Darren's error first minute......but I think when a team knows that there is only one striker, and our set up is rather narrow, you're inviting pressure regardless.

Play two strikers, or at least play one striker and two wingers - it's Scottish football - occupy and make defenders work.

Agree with this quite a few things were to blame for the loss, some horrendous, some basic, some about attitude and application and others tactics.
Parts of these all came into play on Saturday and to be fair , they have all been there during the season all too frequently in my eyes, loads of games where to many players haven't shown the right attitude or application, too many mistakes costing us dropped points mostly involving good chances being squandered, tactics have been heavily criticized in a lot of games , some of the basics in terms of crossing, shooting, runs at corners, etc...given all of ths we still got promotion and should be in a cup final ..but we aren't, and can't change what's done. The players that stay are kept for next season will be the ones NL thinks have the right mentality and attitude as well as ability ..so if he doesn't reckon they have enough of the right traits then, right to let them know and then let them go ...I think we will see quite a few changes for next season and the team will be built to play how he wants instead of being forced at times to make do ..!! Look forward to the next 8 weeks or so ..GGTTH

[cleanyman]

It was one of the worst 30 minutes at Hampden we have ever experienced. It was that bad.

In my opinion Lennon got it wrong with the mentality of the the set up from the off. We were too defensive. Cummings up front on his own was never going to work. Yes, he changed it but it was very obvious within the first 5 minutes that we could be on the end of a hammering. Fyvie and Bartley in the same team was madness.

[Ronniekirk]

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It was one of the worst 30 minutes at Hampden we have ever experienced. It was that bad.

In my opinion Lennon got it wrong with the mentality of the the set up from the off. We were too defensive. Cummings up front on his own was never going to work. Yes, he changed it but it was very obvious within the first 5 minutes that we could be on the end of a hammering. Fyvie and Bartley in the same team was madness.

The Fyvie Bartley combo in same team has been mentioned frequently as something that should be avoided There has always been a consensus on threads mainly agreeing with this
Has that midfield four played together this season before given Dylan's injuries Mcginns period out and Fyvies injury keeping him out



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[hughio]

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How any one can suggest that Lennon was wrong to slate his players for the first 30 minutes is ridiculous.
That opening minute by Hibs was the worst and most comical I think I have ever witnessed by any hibs team I have ever seen...and I'm nearly 60!
To then see another comical and amateurish goal conceded by our players through splitting a defensive wall and thus allowing the ball to continue on its merry way and sneak in at the near post is infuriating. Little wonder our manager is frustrated.

Lennon called it right.
He knows, as most of us do, that there remains a soft centre to Hibs, in which teams don't have to actually work hard for their goals, as our lot can (and still do) collectively and individually switch off at crucial moments inexplicably...nothing to do with tactics or set-ups.

[wookie70]

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Here's what Dylan McGeouch had to say:


http://www.scotsman.com/sport/footba...lity-1-4427409

Dylan confirms the formation wasn't working. No surprise there. He manages to do it tactfully though.

[Eyrie]

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How do you know Aberdeen would have had most of the possession?

It's based on what I saw for that opening period. We were non-existent, so it's very difficult for me to believe that simply not conceding after 12 seconds would have made any difference. Aberdeen would still have harried us into losing the ball because that was their game plan and it worked.

Had the first 30 been more even, with us able to pass the ball in midfield and feed Cummings and Boyle, then I'd agree that conceding the goal had the impact that some on here are suggesting.

[Hibbyradge]

The formation and tactics did not cause the first goal. That was the fault of Hibs players.

The formation and tactics did not cause the second goal. They didn't cause our defensive wall to disintegrate, and our keeper to lose a goal at his near post. (Anyone notice Griffiths trying a similar thing yesterday? The keeper saved it easily.)

Had those things not happened, Lennon would have had the choice of making the same change at the same time, or keeping things tight for a bit longer. But, because of our players poor play, his hand was forced and he had to chase the game.

[Eyrie]

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The formation and tactics did not cause the first goal. That was the fault of Hibs players.

The formation and tactics did not cause the second goal. They didn't cause our defensive wall to disintegrate, and our keeper to lose a goal at his near post. (Anyone notice Griffiths trying a similar thing yesterday? The keeper saved it easily.)

Had those things not happened, Lennon would have had the choice of making the same change at the same time, or keeping things tight for a bit longer. But, because of our players poor play, his hand was forced and he had to chase the game.

If neither of those mistakes had happened, and it had been nil-nil at half time, we'd all have been raging and demanding changes to the line up and tactics to get us back into the tie. Anyone claiming that things were fine, we could sneak one on the break or win it in the last 20 with substitutes would have been laughed at.

It is possible to blame McGregor and McGeouch for the two goals and still hold Lennon accountable for getting his tactics wrong since both are based on the evidence. These are not mutually exclusive positions.

[hibbysam]

Seen a few bits and bobs about who was to blame etc... Yes, NL couldn't do anything about the errors for the goals. What he could do, however, is set us up correctly in the first place.

To play a back four, plus Fyvie and Bartley who are deep lying midfielders, plus McGeough who clearly likes coming deep to collect and drive forward, McGinn very similar and Boyle who was wide right.

This meant there was 50/60 yards between the midfield and JC. This also meant that Aberdeen had free reign to press us 30 yards from our goal, hunting in packs 7 players hunting leaving 3 to mark JC. We had no way out and it was clear it was wrong from the start. There was no balance with no wide left sided player, too many defensive minded players and an isolated and frustrated JC. Their defence may be gash but plant ball after ball onto their head against a 5ft 10 striker and they'll lap it up.

If anyone feels that this setup wasn't a recipe for disaster then their mental. Lennon failing to acknowledge that he made a Noel Hunt of it really disappointed me. Had he said he made an arse of it, couldn't do anything about the errors and the change worked, I'd have had far more respect for him.

[Baker9]

100% right to blame the players. Complete nonsense for both their goals and worse than Primary School defending. When we started to play, we were better than them and deserved to go 2-2.

Lennon had every right to go scatty and his anger will not just be because of the loss of the game. He will have agreed 3 player budgets for the new season - don't make the final, get to the final, win the final.

[ancient hibee]

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If neither of those mistakes had happened, and it had been nil-nil at half time, we'd all have been raging and demanding changes to the line up and tactics to get us back into the tie. Anyone claiming that things were fine, we could sneak one on the break or win it in the last 20 with substitutes would have been laughed at.

It is possible to blame McGregor and McGeouch for the two goals and still hold Lennon accountable for getting his tactics wrong since both are based on the evidence. These are not mutually exclusive positions.

Have I got this right?You're saying that at 0-0 at half time we're not in the tie?That's a new one.

The real trouble was that our defenders and central midfield are not used to being pressed when we have the ball.They have spent a season where every time we have the ball they see 10 men hi- tailing it back to their goals.Perhaps Lennon recognised this and decided to pack the midfield and keep the ball close while the game developed.

[angus hibby]

Name another top manager who would've blasted the players like Lennon did? Yes, Fergie did but that was in the 80s. There is no way Guardiola, Pocchetino, Klopp or Rogers would do this, not in public anyway. It isn't the first time Lennon has had a go either!

Like it or not, man management is everything in modern football and I think Lennon isn't great at this side of things. Wouldn't surprise me if the players are sick of being criticised in public cos I'm afraid that's the way modern footballers are.

For those who say he's like this because he's a winner and won't stand for 2nd best, do you think the managers I've listed above aren't winners.....

[Hibbyradge]

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Name another top manager who would've blasted the players like Lennon did? Yes, Fergie did but that was in the 80s. There is no way Guardiola, Pocchetino, Klopp or Rogers would do this, not in public anyway.

How do you know that?

Their players have never been as unprofessional as ours were on Saturday.

[Andy74]

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Name another top manager who would've blasted the players like Lennon did? Yes, Fergie did but that was in the 80s. There is no way Guardiola, Pocchetino, Klopp or Rogers would do this, not in public anyway. It isn't the first time Lennon has had a go either!

Like it or not, man management is everything in modern football and I think Lennon isn't great at this side of things. Wouldn't surprise me if the players are sick of being criticised in public cos I'm afraid that's the way modern footballers are.

For those who say he's like this because he's a winner and won't stand for 2nd best, do you think the managers I've listed above aren't winners.....

Assume you left Mourinho out on purpose?

[MWHIBBIES]

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How do you know that?

Their players have never been as unprofessional as ours were on Saturday.

Liverpool lost 6-1 to Stoke under Rodgers. In Steven Gerrards last game.

We had a rough start on Saturday, partly down to Lennons tactics, but the players recovered brilliantly and didn't deserve quite so much grief IMO.