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Thread: The Rape Clause

  1. #61
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    I think in principle, the plan to cap child benefit to two kids is a good idea. If it can encourage some folk to actually do some financial planning, rather than thinking "it's fine I'll just get benefits" then that's all good to me.

    The "rape clause" though. It's a difficult one. On one hand, of course you don't want rape victims to be forced to recount something they'd rather not with an admin person, on an application form. On the other hand...is it not fair that someone who has a 3rd child due to being raped can still claim child benefit, despite it being a 3rd child?

    I'm not sure what the solution is, but it's all a bit too emotive in my opinion, which is obviously due to the word rape. To quote pacoluna's post "Rape should never run in tandem with financial decisions it's an absolute disgrace"...well aye I get it, but I do think a child benefit cap is a good idea, and I also think that there should be circumstances where it's not enforced, such as when the 3rd child is the consequence of rape.


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  3. #62
    @hibs.net private member Alex Trager's Avatar
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    Does anyone know if men who are convicted of a rape are held to pay for the maintenance of the child?

  4. #63
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Trager View Post
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    Does anyone know if men who are convicted of a rape are held to pay for the maintenance of the child?
    I'd doubt it.

    A woman would have to make a claim through the CSA, and the man would have to admit paternity.

  5. #64
    @hibs.net private member Alex Trager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    I'd doubt it.

    A woman would have to make a claim through the CSA, and the man would have to admit paternity.
    A very interesting area.
    If he is found guilty you'd think he'd have no choice.

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Trager View Post
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    A very interesting area.
    If he is found guilty you'd think he'd have no choice.
    Not necessarily.

    If she's already in a relationship, he can easily deny it. She would have to demand a DNA test, and that means more trauma for her.

    And then there's the possibility of more Court appearances.

  7. #66
    @hibs.net private member Alex Trager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Not necessarily.

    If she's already in a relationship, he can easily deny it. She would have to demand a DNA test, and that means more trauma for her.

    And then there's the possibility of more Court appearances.
    I would definitely make it the case.

    Test both him and the child. If it's a match then it further confirms that he raped her, based on the previous judgement.

    I appreciate it doesn't confirm actually confirm that but if you consider that he had already been judged to do so, it would be the last nail in the coffin you'd think.

    And he should be made to pay for that child.

    To leave her to pay for the child on her own is brutal if you ask me.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Trager View Post
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    I would definitely make it the case.

    Test both him and the child. If it's a match then it further confirms that he raped her, based on the previous judgement.

    I appreciate it doesn't confirm actually confirm that but if you consider that he had already been judged to do so, it would be the last nail in the coffin you'd think.

    And he should be made to pay for that child.

    To leave her to pay for the child on her own is brutal if you ask me.
    Its an inreresting idea, but i imagine any woman in that circumstance would want nothing to do with her attacker, never mind monthly payments for 18 years.

    Does a father in that situation have any paternal rights does anyone know?

  9. #68
    @hibs.net private member Alex Trager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Its an inreresting idea, but i imagine any woman in that circumstance would want nothing to do with her attacker, never mind monthly payments for 18 years.

    Does a father in that situation have any paternal rights does anyone know?
    Yeah of course it would have to be through the govt that the payments are maintained.

  10. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Trager View Post
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    I would definitely make it the case.

    Test both him and the child. If it's a match then it further confirms that he raped her, based on the previous judgement.

    I appreciate it doesn't confirm actually confirm that but if you consider that he had already been judged to do so, it would be the last nail in the coffin you'd think.

    And he should be made to pay for that child.

    To leave her to pay for the child on her own is brutal if you ask me.
    I don't think many rape cases are decided on whether there was sex or not, it's the consent or lack of that's normally the issue.

  11. #70
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alex Trager View Post
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    Yeah of course it would have to be through the govt that the payments are maintained.
    ...and that would still be a constant reminder of what happened.

    I am guessing, and this only an opinion of course, that most women would rather not have that. That they would be happy to have no payment, if it gave them an opportunity to move on and try to make the best of things without that monthly reminder.

  12. #71
    @hibs.net private member Alex Trager's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    ...and that would still be a constant reminder of what happened.

    I am guessing, and this only an opinion of course, that most women would rather not have that. That they would be happy to have no payment, if it gave them an opportunity to move on and try to make the best of things without that monthly reminder.
    Yeah I suppose mate. Never thought about that

  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    ...and that would still be a constant reminder of what happened.

    I am guessing, and this only an opinion of course, that most women would rather not have that. That they would be happy to have no payment, if it gave them an opportunity to move on and try to make the best of things without that monthly reminder.
    and the evil Tories would love that.

  14. #73
    Good to see Labour, SNP and Greens combine at Holyrood to condemn both the 2 child cap and rape clause. Squirming Tories followed their westminster orders.

  15. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    I think in principle, the plan to cap child benefit to two kids is a good idea. If it can encourage some folk to actually do some financial planning, rather than thinking "it's fine I'll just get benefits" then that's all good to me.

    The "rape clause" though. It's a difficult one. On one hand, of course you don't want rape victims to be forced to recount something they'd rather not with an admin person, on an application form. On the other hand...is it not fair that someone who has a 3rd child due to being raped can still claim child benefit, despite it being a 3rd child?

    I'm not sure what the solution is, but it's all a bit too emotive in my opinion, which is obviously due to the word rape. To quote pacoluna's post "Rape should never run in tandem with financial decisions it's an absolute disgrace"...well aye I get it, but I do think a child benefit cap is a good idea, and I also think that there should be circumstances where it's not enforced, such as when the 3rd child is the consequence of rape.
    The political point scoring on this issue is distasteful whatever one's personal opinions are, especially when the fact is the change to the tax credits system were announced two years ago. Brian Wilson makes what I think is fair comment here:

    What kind of campaign will it be in Scotland? I’m sure we will hear a lot more words of dubious sincerity about “respect” but if the tone set by the unpleasant campaign to demonise Ruth Davidson over the so-called “rape clause” is the harbinger, then we should not hold our breaths.

    It is worth digressing to deplore how cynical this operation has been as it has important lessons for the weeks ahead. Surely nobody maintains that it would have been better not to have an exemption for rape victims from the “two child credits” rule than to create one? In other words, the real political issue is the dodgy piece of social engineering inherent in the legislation – not the exemption from it.

    And this is where Ms Davidson has a perfectly reasonable point. This dilution of child credits has been approaching for two years. If the Scottish Government regarded the “two child” rule as obnoxious, it has been within its powers since September to state unambiguously that they would negate it in Scotland, using around £30 million of the £800m additional resources. That would have won widespread support and sent a signal of how devolution allows Scotland to do things differently on welfare. It would also have involved making choices about how money is spent and would have meant there was no “rape clause” in Scotland around which to promote indignation and denigration.

    For pointing all this out, Ms Davidson was denounced by the First Minister as “beneath contempt” – maybe she learned her definition of “respect” from a charm school run by Peter Wishart.

    Surely it is possible to disagree politically – as I do on the “two- child” rule – without inciting “contempt”; a commodity, some might say, worthy of those who talk piously and do nothing.

    Hard questioning of Nationalists who pontificate on issues over which they hold unused powers might be a usesful feature of the campaign.
    Last edited by G B Young; Today at 09:18 AM.

  16. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    The political point scoring on this issue is distasteful whatever one's personal opinions are, especially when the fact is the change to the tax credits system were announced two years ago. Brian Wilson makes what I think is fair comment here:

    What kind of campaign will it be in Scotland? I’m sure we will hear a lot more words of dubious sincerity about “respect” but if the tone set by the unpleasant campaign to demonise Ruth Davidson over the so-called “rape clause” is the harbinger, then we should not hold our breaths.

    It is worth digressing to deplore how cynical this operation has been as it has important lessons for the weeks ahead. Surely nobody maintains that it would have been better not to have an exemption for rape victims from the “two child credits” rule than to create one? In other words, the real political issue is the dodgy piece of social engineering inherent in the legislation – not the exemption from it.

    And this is where Ms Davidson has a perfectly reasonable point. This dilution of child credits has been approaching for two years. If the Scottish Government regarded the “two child” rule as obnoxious, it has been within its powers since September to state unambiguously that they would negate it in Scotland, using around £30 million of the £800m additional resources. That would have won widespread support and sent a signal of how devolution allows Scotland to do things differently on welfare. It would also have involved making choices about how money is spent and would have meant there was no “rape clause” in Scotland around which to promote indignation and denigration.

    For pointing all this out, Ms Davidson was denounced by the First Minister as “beneath contempt” – maybe she learned her definition of “respect” from a charm school run by Peter Wishart.

    Surely it is possible to disagree politically – as I do on the “two- child” rule – without inciting “contempt”; a commodity, some might say, worthy of those who talk piously and do nothing.

    Hard questioning of Nationalists who pontificate on issues over which they hold unused powers might be a usesful feature of the campaign.
    Former Labour man Brian Wilson there, with an article parroting the Tory party response to opposition to the rape clause.

  17. #76
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    The political point scoring on this issue is distasteful whatever one's personal opinions are, especially when the fact is the change to the tax credits system were announced two years ago. Brian Wilson makes what I think is fair comment here:

    What kind of campaign will it be in Scotland? I’m sure we will hear a lot more words of dubious sincerity about “respect” but if the tone set by the unpleasant campaign to demonise Ruth Davidson over the so-called “rape clause” is the harbinger, then we should not hold our breaths.

    It is worth digressing to deplore how cynical this operation has been as it has important lessons for the weeks ahead. Surely nobody maintains that it would have been better not to have an exemption for rape victims from the “two child credits” rule than to create one? In other words, the real political issue is the dodgy piece of social engineering inherent in the legislation – not the exemption from it.

    And this is where Ms Davidson has a perfectly reasonable point. This dilution of child credits has been approaching for two years. If the Scottish Government regarded the “two child” rule as obnoxious, it has been within its powers since September to state unambiguously that they would negate it in Scotland, using around £30 million of the £800m additional resources. That would have won widespread support and sent a signal of how devolution allows Scotland to do things differently on welfare. It would also have involved making choices about how money is spent and would have meant there was no “rape clause” in Scotland around which to promote indignation and denigration.

    For pointing all this out, Ms Davidson was denounced by the First Minister as “beneath contempt” – maybe she learned her definition of “respect” from a charm school run by Peter Wishart.

    Surely it is possible to disagree politically – as I do on the “two- child” rule – without inciting “contempt”; a commodity, some might say, worthy of those who talk piously and do nothing.

    Hard questioning of Nationalists who pontificate on issues over which they hold unused powers might be a usesful feature of the campaign.
    The Scottish Government can 'mitigate' the clause, but don't have the power to change it. They can decide to fund the third and subsequent child benefit by using money that should be used for other, possibly more worthy causes, such as the NHS, or Education.

    It becomes a choice for the Scottish Government, pay for more teachers or nurses, or unnecessarily pay to undo the harm caused by the UK government policy change. IMO
    #Persevered
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  18. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    The Scottish Government can 'mitigate' the clause, but don't have the power to change it. They can decide to fund the third and subsequent child benefit by using money that should be used for other, possibly more worthy causes, such as the NHS, or Education.

    It becomes a choice for the Scottish Government, pay for more teachers or nurses, or unnecessarily pay to undo the harm caused by the UK government policy change. IMO
    It's this sort of thing that is exactly why I'd like independence even though I'm unlikely to vote SNP once that was achieved.
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  19. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    The Scottish Government can 'mitigate' the clause, but don't have the power to change it. They can decide to fund the third and subsequent child benefit by using money that should be used for other, possibly more worthy causes, such as the NHS, or Education.

    It becomes a choice for the Scottish Government, pay for more teachers or nurses, or unnecessarily pay to undo the harm caused by the UK government policy change. IMO


    Tax credits are reserved. It's ridiculous to suggest that under the current devolution settlement the ScotGov should be using its budget (for devolved matters) to mitigate the effect of UK policy on reserved matters.

  20. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    The Scottish Government can 'mitigate' the clause, but don't have the power to change it. They can decide to fund the third and subsequent child benefit by using money that should be used for other, possibly more worthy causes, such as the NHS, or Education.

    It becomes a choice for the Scottish Government, pay for more teachers or nurses, or unnecessarily pay to undo the harm caused by the UK government policy change. IMO
    IIRC the additional £800 million of budget resources referred to by Brian Wilson is funding that the Scottish Government did not expect to have. If mitigating the clause would, as he estimates, cost approximately £30m then perhaps here is an opportunity for Nicola Sturgeon to do more than criticise and prove she is genuinely motivated to help. As far as I'm aware the SNP have yet to commit to how they plan to spend the additional funding.

    Nobody is denying this is a delicate issue but Sturgeon's present stance smacks of political posturing over a change to the tax credit system which was actually announced in 2015 and, it would seem, aroused little in the way of public controversy at the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    IIRC the additional £800 million of budget resources referred to by Brian Wilson is funding that the Scottish Government did not expect to have. If mitigating the clause would, as he estimates, cost approximately £30m then perhaps here is an opportunity for Nicola Sturgeon to do more than criticise and prove she is genuinely motivated to help. As far as I'm aware the SNP have yet to commit to how they plan to spend the additional funding.

    Nobody is denying this is a delicate issue but Sturgeon's present stance smacks of political posturing over a change to the tax credit system which was actually announced in 2015 and, it would seem, aroused little in the way of public controversy at the time.

    Maybe, just maybe, the Scottish Government will use some of the additional funds to replace those that have been used to 'Mitigate' the bedroom tax and unfair benefit cuts by the UK Government over the last 7 to 12 years???

    Except, here is the rub, it isn't able to, because it is capital funding, which has to be used for capital projects, infrastructure, house building, etc, and is over a 5 year period so is actually 160million per year.
    Last edited by Golden Fleece; Today at 11:33 AM.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  22. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    IIRC the additional £800 million of budget resources referred to by Brian Wilson is funding that the Scottish Government did not expect to have. If mitigating the clause would, as he estimates, cost approximately £30m then perhaps here is an opportunity for Nicola Sturgeon to do more than criticise and prove she is genuinely motivated to help. As far as I'm aware the SNP have yet to commit to how they plan to spend the additional funding.

    Nobody is denying this is a delicate issue but Sturgeon's present stance smacks of political posturing over a change to the tax credit system which was actually announced in 2015 and, it would seem, aroused little in the way of public controversy at the time.
    Is child benefit caught under tax credit rules? And as I have pointed out previously Scotland has specific devolved powers to top up child benefit if it sees fit as well as introducing new benefits.

    And if the £30m is accurate out of the £800m then that is the cost over 5 years so £6m a year to mitigate the policy out of a budget of £33bn a year. So 0.02% of the overall budget?

    If the above holds true then it's clear to me that it would have been rather straight forward to mitigate rather than pontificate...in fact it would have been rather easy to do both.

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    The Extra £800m

    “Most significantly for Scotland is the £800 million of extra capital funding. This is as a result of the Chancellor’s decision to invest in infrastructure, but it is for the Scottish Government to step up now. If it is used properly by the Scottish Government, this will make a real difference to productivity, jobs and growth in Scotland.

    the Chancellor set out how he would provide the Scottish Government with more than £800 million through to 2020/21, giving it the means to invest significantly in infrastructure. This investment shows that through economic strength and certainty, the UK is the vital union for Scotland.

    None of it can be used to 'mitigate the UK Government policies
    #Persevered
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  24. #83
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    I wonder if we could collectively have an "I'm Spartacus" type situation.

    Every woman regardless in solidarity should claim, spam the system and make it pointless.

    J

  25. #84
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    The way the Tories are trying to spin the rape-clause as a political tool used by anyone who has a shred of decency is absolutely deplorable.

  26. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Maybe, just maybe, the Scottish Government will use some of the additional funds to replace those that have been used to 'Mitigate' the bedroom tax and unfair benefit cuts by the UK Government over the last 7 to 12 years???

    Except, here is the rub, it isn't able to, because it is capital funding, which has to be used for capital projects, infrastructure, house building, etc, and is over a 5 year period so is actually 160million per year.
    I'm sure I read £5 million has been set aside for Edinurgh councils road improvement program this year.
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  27. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    The political point scoring on this issue is distasteful whatever one's personal opinions are, especially when the fact is the change to the tax credits system were announced two years ago. Brian Wilson makes what I think is fair comment here:

    [B][FONT=arial][COLOR=#000000]What kind of campaign will it be in Scotland? I’m sure we will hear a lot more words of dubious sincerity about “respect” but if the tone set by the unpleasant campaign to demonise Ruth Davidson over the so-called “rape clause” is the harbinger, then we should not hold our breaths.

    It is worth digressing to deplore how cynical this operation has been as it has important lessons for the weeks ahead. Surely nobody maintains that it would have been better not to have an exemption for rape victims from the “two child credits” rule than to create one? In other words, the real political issue is the dodgy piece of social engineering inherent in the legislation – not the exemption from it.
    If he'd have stopped there it would be a great point and would show up SNP for cheap point scoring.

    Unfortunately he's carried on for a bit of point scoring of his own. And even then he's talking about funds which can't be used for those purposes.

  28. #87
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    I'm sure I read £5 million has been set aside for Edinurgh councils road improvement program this year.
    Indeed it has, by City of Edinburgh Council.

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...ital-1-4394473
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

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