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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Norway's revenue from Oil and gas in 2015 was £17.684Billion, the uk made £43 Million. If the UK gov were as competent as the Norwegian gov, Scotland would have run a Multi Billion pound surplus.
    Revenue or profit?

    I agree though, a state-owned commercially operatdd company, along the lines of Lothian busses, would seem lile at least examining?


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    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Revenue or profit?

    I agree though, a state-owned commercially operatdd company, along the lines of Lothian busses, would seem lile at least examining?
    More info here for you to peruse.

    http://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/econ...ents-revenues/

    http://www.norskpetroleum.no/en/econ...t-of-revenues/
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 11-04-2017 at 06:45 PM.

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    I would suggest it's rather too late for the UK government to be owning the fields and the assets directly.

    But it's pretty damn clear that they should have retained an equity stake in the North Sea even if they didn't want to manage the exploration and production themselves...a rather expensive mistake, to put it mildly.

    There is some mitigating factors re the difference in revenue that Norway has gained v the U.K. but none the less the Norwegians have shown how it should have been done, there is no denying that fact!

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    If we had done it properly, Scotland could habe bought a peremier league club with our sovereign wealth fund!

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    does the question of climate change not bother the folk who are worried about jobs and the oil industry? i'm not saying it's a bad news story for scotland - other than that it puts us in further jeopardy of not having a country/habitable planet to care about, let alone jobs (which i fully realise are utterly vital, but surely it's trivial to say that these jobs aren't more important than the environment?)

    this said, if there was some way in which oil could be used in a way that wasn't sending us on our way to a long, protracted and miserable death, it would be great...but surely once renewables have kicked in economically, it'll be worth a lot less anyway?

    i'm a yes voter, by the way - i just can't ignore the very real concern that life on planet earth may become genuinely awful for everyone within my lifetime because if this sort of short sightedness.

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    @hibs.net private member ano hibby's Avatar
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    SiMar
    Your points are all fair but remember solar and wind were at £500/£600 per MWhr less than 10 years ago so I think its premature to write off tidal just because it's not at £100/MWhr yet. You could argue it's in better relative shape than wind/solar at similar age of development.
    Also to reiterate (I'm reasonably sure) that tidal is the only renewable which can be considered 'base load' i.e. guaranteed power..it's a big difference.
    It's very embryonic though I'd agree with that and to be a serious part of the mix we are probably 10 years away I'd guess.
    Last edited by ano hibby; 12-04-2017 at 05:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AgentDaleCooper View Post
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    does the question of climate change not bother the folk who are worried about jobs and the oil industry? i'm not saying it's a bad news story for scotland - other than that it puts us in further jeopardy of not having a country/habitable planet to care about, let alone jobs (which i fully realise are utterly vital, but surely it's trivial to say that these jobs aren't more important than the environment?)

    this said, if there was some way in which oil could be used in a way that wasn't sending us on our way to a long, protracted and miserable death, it would be great...but surely once renewables have kicked in economically, it'll be worth a lot less anyway?

    i'm a yes voter, by the way - i just can't ignore the very real concern that life on planet earth may become genuinely awful for everyone within my lifetime because if this sort of short sightedness.
    I do think about this, and its very valid.

    But i have no faith that any othet country gives a flying one, especially the big significant countries.

    In that landscspe, we are very small fry

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    Quote Originally Posted by ano hibby View Post
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    SiMar
    Your points are all fair but remember solar and wind were at £500/£600 per MWhr less than 10 years ago so I think its premature to write off tidal just because it's not at £100/MWhr yet. You could argue it's in better relative shape than wind/solar at similar age of development.
    Also to reiterate (I'm reasonably sure) that tidal is the only renewable which can be considered 'base load' i.e. guaranteed power..it's a big difference.
    It's very embryonic though I'd agree with that and to be a serious part of the mix we are probably 10 years away I'd guess.
    Channel 4 news last night has a feature about how some of the rare earth minerals uaed in renewable energy ar far from it, amd so they are investigating deep sea mining.

    Might not be the panacea after all

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    This oil find.

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I do think about this, and its very valid.

    But i have no faith that any othet country gives a flying one, especially the big significant countries.

    In that landscspe, we are very small fry
    Energiewende?


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    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    Energiewende?


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    Certainly a policy Trump would like considering its reliance on brown coal generation!

    Seriously though this policy is a very good example of how the concept of 100% renewables sounds great but in practice is very difficult to achieve.

    The mere 30% the Germans have achieved has had multiple unintended and expensive consequences, survived only because they have been able to use the European grid to rebalance the intermittency and nearly destroyed its utilities due to the margin cost effect that renewables have.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ano hibby View Post
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    SiMar
    Your points are all fair but remember solar and wind were at £500/£600 per MWhr less than 10 years ago so I think its premature to write off tidal just because it's not at £100/MWhr yet. You could argue it's in better relative shape than wind/solar at similar age of development.
    Also to reiterate (I'm reasonably sure) that tidal is the only renewable which can be considered 'base load' i.e. guaranteed power..it's a big difference.
    It's very embryonic though I'd agree with that and to be a serious part of the mix we are probably 10 years away I'd guess.
    I'm not certain but I was under the impression tidal was not base load without some rather extravagant engineering like an associated hydro storage or the like.

    Tidal to me just seems to be very high impact on our environment both visual and in terms of eco systems, especially on our shorelines, and simply too expensive without huge scale.

    There are plenty of alternatives so generally tidal sits in the just because we can doesn't mean we should bucket for me!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Channel 4 news last night has a feature about how some of the rare earth minerals uaed in renewable energy ar far from it, amd so they are investigating deep sea mining.

    Might not be the panacea after all
    Didn't see that, what were the renewables & what were the materials, can you recall?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    I'm not certain but I was under the impression tidal was not base load without some rather extravagant engineering like an associated hydro storage or the like.

    Tidal to me just seems to be very high impact on our environment both visual and in terms of eco systems, especially on our shorelines, and simply too expensive without huge scale.

    There are plenty of alternatives so generally tidal sits in the just because we can doesn't mean we should bucket for me!
    Tidal energy is on the seabed, wave energy is on the surface. Tidal is 'invisible' in that sense and to me is a big advantage over wind and wave.
    I admit to not knowing environmental impacts of both including decommission costs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ano hibby View Post
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    Didn't see that, what were the renewables & what were the materials, can you recall?

    It is solar energy and the chemicals are rare on the surface, but relatively abundant on the ocean floors.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-39347620
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    Energiewende?


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    Gesundheit

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    Quote Originally Posted by ano hibby View Post
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    Tidal energy is on the seabed, wave energy is on the surface. Tidal is 'invisible' in that sense and to me is a big advantage over wind and wave.
    I admit to not knowing environmental impacts of both including decommission costs.
    Most tidal involves barrage walls does it not, normally across estuaries of the like creating lagoons...must admit I've not spent ages investigating but any scheme I have seen proposed seems far from invisible and definitely very intrusive on the normal functioning of the areas involved. Hence why there is normally vast environmental impact assessments required for any proposal.

    A good example is the one proposed as Swansea:

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...power-supplies

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    Quote Originally Posted by ano hibby View Post
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    Didn't see that, what were the renewables & what were the materials, can you recall?
    Nah, lots of names that reminded me of avatar (unobtanium) but they were used in solar panels and wind turbine manufacture.

    The main places for mininig the sea bed were in mid atlantic and mid pacific, so not cheap or easy i dont suppose.

    I dont know much about energy, like i say was just an interesting piece on C4 news, not a programme i would expect to cast doubt on renewables.

    Edit - couldnt find anything on c4 piece, but this seems to be the same story -
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/39347620
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 13-04-2017 at 11:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Most tidal involves barrage walls does it not, normally across estuaries of the like creating lagoons...must admit I've not spent ages investigating but any scheme I have seen proposed seems far from invisible and definitely very intrusive on the normal functioning of the areas involved. Hence why there is normally vast environmental impact assessments required for any proposal.

    A good example is the one proposed as Swansea:

    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.t...power-supplies
    There's one 5 minutes from me.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rance_Tidal_Power_Station

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    So not invisible then

    I knew about this one...I think it's the first and almost certainly the oldest still operating in the world. Interesting to read the Wiki which suggests it has had significant impact on the local eco system which is kind of my point with this technology.

    Anyhoo enough from me on my dislike of tidal, even starting to bore myself now

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Certainly a policy Trump would like considering its reliance on brown coal generation!

    Seriously though this policy is a very good example of how the concept of 100% renewables sounds great but in practice is very difficult to achieve.

    The mere 30% the Germans have achieved has had multiple unintended and expensive consequences, survived only because they have been able to use the European grid to rebalance the intermittency and nearly destroyed its utilities due to the margin cost effect that renewables have.
    Don't the Brits love to bash anything German. This line that 100% renewables "can't work", importing from Europe, unreliable blah blah. It's a political battle here in Germany, just like in Scotland. "Destroy the utilities" is not a nice neutral, technical issue, it's the ****ing energy companies who continue to churn out tasty dividends to their shareholders. Of course they fight back, against renewables that in Germany are 50% citizen-owned and small scale. They don't like the threat to their profits. And what's not to like, if you think European, to import energy from other countries. As the smart grid develops, we need less and less "base load", a political concept in itself which benefits highly centralised (ie big business) production.

    As for marginal cost effect, I raise you oil externalities. :-)


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    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    Don't the Brits love to bash anything German. This line that 100% renewables "can't work", importing from Europe, unreliable blah blah. It's a political battle here in Germany, just like in Scotland. "Destroy the utilities" is not a nice neutral, technical issue, it's the ****ing energy companies who continue to churn out tasty dividends to their shareholders. Of course they fight back, against renewables that in Germany are 50% citizen-owned and small scale. They don't like the threat to their profits. And what's not to like, if you think European, to import energy from other countries. As the smart grid develops, we need less and less "base load", a political concept in itself which benefits highly centralised (ie big business) production.

    As for marginal cost effect, I raise you oil externalities. :-)


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    I wasn't bashing Germans merely referencing their market because their policies were mentioned and they are an excellent case study on what happens when renewables become a large part of the mix.

    And although the issue is politicised in Germany in particular (not least because of the mess they made of some of the legislation) the question of how the move to renewables is managed is a very real one across the globe. China for example are investing billions in ultra high voltage transmission as part of their response.

    As for the removal of utilities ability to make money. That might be a vote winner but it does little to promote investment in the very infrastructure that is required to support the move away from centralised power provision so again is a valid issue to raise.

    Also it's a fact that Germany could not have done what they have done if they didn't have the European grid to balance their intermittency problem...fine for them but maybe not for others nor am I sure that such an option is available such to the U.K. It's also a fact that the German green energy and nuclear decomm policies resulted in their brown coal mining and electricity production from it to to hit highs in the last couple of years not seen since 1990.

    My basic point was not aimed at Germany or bashing anyone it was simply to point out that going renewables big time brings huge changes that require substantial investment and transformational change to established markets. None of it is insurmountable but the complexity, technical challenges and costs are often not appreciated fully or worse under played by the very proponents of green energy. Saying we should be 100% renewable is easy, delivering a robust and affordable solution to deliver that far from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    I wasn't bashing Germans merely referencing their market because their policies were mentioned and they are an excellent case study on what happens when renewables become a large part of the mix.

    And although the issue is politicised in Germany in particular (not least because of the mess they made of some of the legislation) the question of how the move to renewables is managed is a very real one across the globe. China for example are investing billions in ultra high voltage transmission as part of their response.

    As for the removal of utilities ability to make money. That might be a vote winner but it does little to promote investment in the very infrastructure that is required to support the move away from centralised power provision so again is a valid issue to raise.

    Also it's a fact that Germany could not have done what they have done if they didn't have the European grid to balance their intermittency problem...fine for them but maybe not for others nor am I sure that such an option is available such to the U.K. It's also a fact that the German green energy and nuclear decomm policies resulted in their brown coal mining and electricity production from it to to hit highs in the last couple of years not seen since 1990.

    My basic point was not aimed at Germany or bashing anyone it was simply to point out that going renewables big time brings huge changes that require substantial investment and transformational change to established markets. None of it is insurmountable but the complexity, technical challenges and costs are often not appreciated fully or worse under played by the very proponents of green energy. Saying we should be 100% renewable is easy, delivering a robust and affordable solution to deliver that far from it.
    Point taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    Point taken.
    Yeah and I probably need to get out more

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    So not invisible then

    I knew about this one...I think it's the first and almost certainly the oldest still operating in the world. Interesting to read the Wiki which suggests it has had significant impact on the local eco system which is kind of my point with this technology.

    Anyhoo enough from me on my dislike of tidal, even starting to bore myself now
    I'm starting to bore myself too.
    The pic of the French thing is different though.
    Tidal energy I'm talking about involves no damming just turbines on the seabed harnessing the tide & feeding in via cables to the grid.
    Moving on:)
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    Quote Originally Posted by ano hibby View Post
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    I'm starting to bore myself too.
    The pic of the French thing is different though.
    Tidal energy I'm talking about involves no damming just turbines on the seabed harnessing the tide & feeding in via cables to the grid.
    Moving on:)
    Like this one?

    http://www.meygen.com/

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    @hibs.net private member ano hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Like this one?

    http://www.meygen.com/
    Yes thanks that's what current tidal developments are moving towards.
    That site also contained this handy comparison with the latter being what I was referring to:

    Marine Power

    There is often confusion regarding the different types of tidal power, and indeed between tidal current power and wave power. To summarise:
    Wave energy converters harness the motion of waves generated by wind and swell.
    Tidal lagoons and tidal barrages use barriers to create an enhanced difference in the height of the water surface as the tide enters or exits an enclosed area. The water on the high side can then be released through turbines in the barrier to generate electricity.
    Tidal current turbines are powered by the natural horizontal flow of water as our seas and oceans move in response to the interaction of the Earth, the Moon and the Sun. Unless taken to extremes, it does not require blocking of any waterways, and hence does not have the adverse environmental effects that can be associated with tidal barrages.
    Last edited by ano hibby; 14-04-2017 at 10:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ano hibby View Post
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    Yes thanks that's what current tidal developments are moving towards.
    That site also contained this handy comparison with the latter being what I was referring to:

    Marine Power

    There is often confusion regarding the different types of tidal power, and indeed between tidal current power and wave power. To summarise:
    Wave energy converters harness the motion of waves generated by wind and swell.
    Tidal lagoons and tidal barrages use barriers to create an enhanced difference in the height of the water surface as the tide enters or exits an enclosed area. The water on the high side can then be released through turbines in the barrier to generate electricity.
    Tidal current turbines are powered by the natural horizontal flow of water as our seas and oceans move in response to the interaction of the Earth, the Moon and the Sun. Unless taken to extremes, it does not require blocking of any waterways, and hence does not have the adverse environmental effects that can be associated with tidal barrages.
    I saw that, but I thought I'd let you link to it

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    In case anyone's not completely bored by this tidal chat (and apologies to OP for veering off) there's some news out today:

    http://www.scotrenewables.com/news/1...its-peak-power

    I asked my pal who is involved in tidal with a different company (why I'm interested in it) and he said the following:

    No floating system has proved itself in exposed conditions! Oceanflow is about the best given that it is a semi-sub design. Operating in waves causes massive load variations which means load on the electrical systems (PTO). Floating solutions really donít like exposed areas such as Fair Head, Mull of Kintyre, West of Islay. EMEC is a relatively sheltered site so is a flattering test site for ScotRenewables.

    One of the other major downsides is the export cable is exposed to severe dynamic forces. Not only that they will have significant losses due to the slip ring used to allow the platform to rotate around in the tide. This bearing will be a significant maintenance issue and directly effects your electrical efficiency hence revenue. This may also limit the voltage of the export cable again adding to electrical losses if they are long way offshore (>1 mile).

    The seabed area that these systems need are very large when you include the moorings so the power/m^2 is effectively quite low despite their boasts about the most powerful turbine in the world.

    The deployment costs are significantly larger than Subhub because they require many more marine operations to install the massive mooring blocks and lines. These are all heavy lifts again or many smaller ones that means time at sea and within weather windows of the lifting capabilities of the craft.

    The navigational problems and planning issues are plane to see and should not be underestimated. No good for estuarine or narrow channels. If the industry proliferates and we have dozens of these damned things there is clearly going to be a collision incident with them with another marine craft.

    The RSPB are very sensitive about diving birds which could be a real issue with any floating turbines that operates close to the surface.
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    @hibs.net private member ano hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I saw that, but I thought I'd let you link to it
    Thanks I was aware of Meygen & should have referred to it earlier.
    "We've also been unsure about what has happened to the receipts of the players who have been sold."
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    Quote Originally Posted by ano hibby View Post
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    Thanks I was aware of Meygen & should have referred to it earlier.
    And another...https://t.co/FhfNhrgiWZ

    Every little helps

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