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  1. #91
    Testimonial Due weecounty hibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I get child benefit, while useful (what money isnt?) we dont depend on it, and id be happy for that money to be used elsewhere or saved.
    Very kind and public spirited of you. You don't have to receive child benefit, all you have to do is call the relevant government agency and ask for it to be stopped. As you are happy for it to be used elsewhere or saved I'm sure the government will be delighted to help you with that


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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Child benefit, education, nurseries, free school meals, child protection, child health care and anything else to ensure our kids have every chance to ensure our future as opposed to atomic weapons that have no other purpose than to insure the UK has a seat at the top table. You know fine well what he meant. Bairns not bombs.
    It is a pretty rubbishy slogan though.

  4. #93
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    It is a pretty rubbishy slogan though.
    No, it's concise and to the point. Pretty much the point of a slogan.

  5. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    It is a pretty rubbishy slogan though.
    Not as good as the "£350m per week to the NHS from Europe" slogan unfortunately as obviously that whopper was believed by quite a few folk.

  6. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    No, it's concise and to the point. Pretty much the point of a slogan.
    Yip. Was very obvious to those who wanted to understand exactly what it meant.

  7. #96
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by weecounty hibby View Post
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    Not as good as the "£350m per week to the NHS from Europe" slogan unfortunately as obviously that whopper was believed by quite a few folk.

  8. #97
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    Ok, so just so i understand.

    Trite, reductive political slogan that grossly and dangerously oversimilifies something nuanced amd complicated by party you dpnt like = bad

    Trite, reductive political slogan that grossly and dangerously oversimplifies something nuanced and complicated ny party you do like = good

    Good too see objectivity amd reasoned analysis is alive and well.

  9. #98
    @hibs.net private member Hiber-nation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Does it.
    Eh? What does that mean?

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ok, so just so i understand.

    Trite, reductive political slogan that grossly and dangerously oversimilifies something nuanced amd complicated by party you dpnt like = bad

    Trite, reductive political slogan that grossly and dangerously oversimplifies something nuanced and complicated ny party you do like = good

    Good too see objectivity amd reasoned analysis is alive and well.
    The message on the Brexit bus was a barefaced lie rather than a slogan though.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  11. #100
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    If there is a more stupid, meaningless and trite poltical slogan, i have yet to read it.

    What does it even mean? Are you saying we should cut all our defence spending and give it to child benefit? Or are you saying we should habe a military and not give them any bombs?

    Or are you saying we should fire bairns out of our artillery? Then child benefit would be someone elses problem i suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I absolutely agree, all children should get the best start possible.

    But that has to be realistic too. A govt cant legislate away feckwit parents. There has to be parentl responsibility.

    And this is where politics becomes much more difficult than easy slogans, because at some point, going out of your way to help some kids means that others start being disadvantaged, one way or another. Its not as simple as all that.

    And of course someone has to pay for it. That will be those middle classes again eh, those kulaks who work hard, do the right things and take advantage of our free, universal education to get good jobs. Yeah, hit them, those bourgeois wannabe tories. Theu deserve it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Child benefit, education, nurseries, free school meals, child protection, child health care and anything else to ensure our kids have every chance to ensure our future as opposed to atomic weapons that have no other purpose than to insure the UK has a seat at the top table. You know fine well what he meant. Bairns not bombs.
    I thought you were well up in slogans of the politicos too.

    If you didn't understand what I was meaning, sorry about that. Hibrandenburg has covered it well enough.

    I get your position on this. You want children to get the best possible start, but only if the parents are not feckwits, and only if they do what you did, and get educated to make something of themselves. Let's call them the Kulaks and be done with it eh.

    Watch yourself now, you might be stepping on a child's head whilst climbing that middle class ladder. Oh, and watch yourself on the way down. It's a hard landing. I just hope that safety net is there to catch you when you fall.

    Here's yer Tories.

    C8w_JtAXUAAU2kG.jpg
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 07-04-2017 at 11:37 AM.

  12. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    It's an awful policy no matter who introduced it. Looks like May's Tories are just as nasty as any other Tories.
    And Ruth Davidson's Scottish Tories aren't any better.

    http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-tories-make-pathetic-defence-10175151

    “That’s exactly what this measure does in the most sensitive way possible.”

  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Am i?

    Becaause i think the world is more complicated than an SNP bumper sticker suggests?

    Ok then mate. When you grow up, maybe you will see the world isnt black and white.
    What SNP bumper sticker?

    http://scraptrident.org/bairns-not-bombs/

    CND, not SNP.

    Trident not all defence sending.
    #Persevered
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  14. #103
    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    No, it's concise and to the point. Pretty much the point of a slogan.
    I just didn't really know what it meant until I read up on it. If somebody had previously asked me what it meant I'd have guessed it was a vaguely humorous Scottish adaptation of the old hippy mantra 'make love not war'. Now that I know it's an anti-Trident slogan I get it, although I'd always thought bombs were dropped from planes while Trident submarines fired missiles. Nit picking I know and I guess 'make love not missiles' doesn't really work...

    For those who remember The Clash, perhaps their reversal of another hippy mantra 'peace and love' to 'Hate and War' better sums up the world we live in today.

  15. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    So ask for no evidence? You really dont think people would abuse that system?

    Or ask for a criminal conviction - but then they are notoriously difficult to get.
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Why have the policy in the first place?
    This particular topic is worth a thread on its own.

  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    I thought you were well up in slogans of the politicos too.

    If you didn't understand what I was meaning, sorry about that. Hibrandenburg has covered it well enough.

    I get your position on this. You want children to get the best possible start, but only if the parents are not feckwits, and only if they do what you did, and get educated to make something of themselves. Let's call them the Kulaks and be done with it eh.

    Watch yourself now, you might be stepping on a child's head whilst climbing that middle class ladder. Oh, and watch yourself on the way down. It's a hard landing. I just hope that safety net is their to catch you when you fall.

    Here's yer Tories.

    C8w_JtAXUAAU2kG.jpg
    Id always thought it was a generic, anti-war, 'for good things and against bad things' type of slogan. I didnt realise it was specifically anti-trident. Thats a whole other discussion!

    I said i dont believe the government can legislate away feckwit parents. There is a limit to what policy interventions can do, and that is where people/society/family have to step in amd take responsibility.

    No, nobdoy has to do what i did, i dont think i said that. But what is the point in having universal benefits, like free education, that we all, collectively pay for as a society, if we then decry those that take advantage of them for 'getting educated amd making something of themselves'.

    Anyway, we are touching on trident, general political theory, so i think we are digressing a tad.

    Lets agree to disagree on this one mate?

  17. #106
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;5002092]Id always thought it was a generic, anti-war, 'for good things and against bad things' type of slogan. I didnt realise it was specifically anti-trident. Thats a whole other discussion!

    I said i dont believe the government can legislate away feckwit parents. There is a limit to what policy interventions can do, and that is where people/society/family have to step in amd take responsibility.

    No, nobdoy has to do what i did, i dont think i said that. But what is the point in having universal benefits, like free education, that we all, collectively pay for as a society, if we then decry those that take advantage of them for 'getting educated amd making something of themselves'.

    Anyway, we are touching on trident, general political theory, so i think we are digressing a tad.

    Lets agree to disagree on this one mate?[QUOTE]

    Every time.

    Especially when you're supporting a Government who's policies will traumatise women.

    The Tories, against Baby Boxes, but in favour of Rape Clauses.
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 07-04-2017 at 01:15 PM.

  18. #107
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    [QUOTE=ronaldo7;5002249][QUOTE=SouthsideHarp_Bhoy;5002092]Id always thought it was a generic, anti-war, 'for good things and against bad things' type of slogan. I didnt realise it was specifically anti-trident. Thats a whole other discussion!

    I said i dont believe the government can legislate away feckwit parents. There is a limit to what policy interventions can do, and that is where people/society/family have to step in amd take responsibility.

    No, nobdoy has to do what i did, i dont think i said that. But what is the point in having universal benefits, like free education, that we all, collectively pay for as a society, if we then decry those that take advantage of them for 'getting educated amd making something of themselves'.

    Anyway, we are touching on trident, general political theory, so i think we are digressing a tad.

    Lets agree to disagree on this one mate?

    Every time.

    Especially when you're supporting a Government who's policies will traumatise women.

    The Tories, against Baby Boxes, but in favour of Rape Clauses.
    Baby boxes...now there is a classic politicians pet project. Shame they don't really have any scientific evidence to support them.

    Anyhoo the rape clause thing just shows what a stupid rule the 2 kids thing is...anything that needs a clause where you need to evidence you were raped to get extra benefit is clearly a daft idea.

  19. #108
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    The answer to Toryism is a socialist analysis of injustice; of a methodology which rejects money as the fundamental building block of society, in favour of a values based relationship. We must not condemn ourselves to the money system of value, for it's a man made system which rewards narrow self-interest. I firmly believe we can do better.
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  20. #109
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    The Tory RAPE clause.

    70+ psychologists write to warn that Tax Credits ‘Rape clause’ will cause "significant psychological harm" It's what Tories do.

    https://t.co/xPARXglK8n

  21. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    The Tory RAPE clause.

    70+ psychologists write to warn that Tax Credits ‘Rape clause’ will cause "significant psychological harm" It's what Tories do.

    https://t.co/xPARXglK8n
    Yeah i think causing psychological harm is in their manifesto.

  22. #111
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Yeah i think causing psychological harm is in their manifesto.
    It's a reflection of their policies.

  23. #112
    how many SNP ministers does it take to change a lightbulb ?

    none they'd rather sit in darkness and blame the tories !

  24. #113
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Yeah i think causing psychological harm is in their manifesto.
    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    how many SNP ministers does it take to change a lightbulb ?

    none they'd rather sit in darkness and blame the tories !
    Care to comment on the link I've posted?

  25. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Care to comment on the link I've posted?
    They should just not have the clause?

    I agree it sounds a bit daft, but i can just imagine how it woyld have come about. I would guess that as the govt consulted on this policy (2 children on child benefit), they would have been lobbied by some group or other, and asked 'well what if someone has a fhird child through rape'.

    Terrified of the being hung up over that, they would have rushed-in this clause.

    Ironically, the whole thing has blown up anyway.

    Perhaps they should scrap the clause amd just say only children born of a rape proven in court are exempt?

    Or perhaps scrap the clause completely, and monitor how much it aplears to be abused?

  26. #115
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    Let's be clear here about what the family cap and rape clause really are. If you are wealthy, have all the babies you want, if you are on minimum wage or dependent on state benefits be sure to not have more than two children as the state won't help you pay for their upbringing. This is tacit social engineering from a party that has always put the needs of the rich first.

  27. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Jonesy- View Post
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    Let's be clear here about what the family cap and rape clause really are. If you are wealthy, have all the babies you want, if you are on minimum wage or dependent on state benefits be sure to not have more than two children as the state won't help you pay for their upbringing. This is tacit social engineering from a party that has always put the needs of the rich first.
    Couple that with the irony that rich folk tend to have less children than poor folk.
    Lots of studies highlighting the issue of r-selection & K-selection. Poor(either financial or education) apparently have multiple children but invest little in them where as rich(financial or education) have fewer offspring but tend to nurture & invest a lot more.
    I don't agree with all the reasons behind the papers but the evidence seems pretty clear.
    Personally, as an individual or family, I think that if you want something that incurs a cost(time/money/resource) then that should be considered thoroughly in advance.
    With respect to children, as shocking as it may seem, if you feel you can't provide fully for them if you don't receive approx the £20 per week (child benefit) then I'd suggest life is going to be tough however many kids you have.

    I opted for the cowards way out, I couldn't afford more than one kid at the time my wife and I wanted to start a family so we just had the one. 13 years later we're in a better position and could now have more but feel the age gap and going back to square 1 would be too much,,,,we're both now regretting being financially sensible and overly hesitant all those years back.

  28. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Jonesy- View Post
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    Let's be clear here about what the family cap and rape clause really are. If you are wealthy, have all the babies you want, if you are on minimum wage or dependent on state benefits be sure to not have more than two children as the state won't help you pay for their upbringing. This is tacit social engineering from a party that has always put the needs of the rich first.
    Its about time they reintroduced the universality of child benefit. This was its setting the middle classes and working classes against each other whilst the wealthy take off financially.

  29. #118
    Another Orange card playing Tory (and possible racist) standing in the council elections:

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...s_in_database/

    In March 2014, Mr Graham shared a Facebook post by the “Proud to be a Protestant banter” group which showed a picture of the Parachute Regiment during Bloody Sunday, when soldiers shot 26 people, 13 fatally, on a civil rights march in Derry in 1972.

    Mr Graham’s post contained the phrase “How many likes for the Paras?”

  30. #119
    I think broadly speaking the right is dominated by the desire to retain (conserve) wealth, privilege and power among those who already enjoy them. In order to build a large enough electoral coalition in a democracy they have to offer enough of a carrot for the aspirational to think they might be able to cross the bridge and in order to actually get elected it has to be watered down to the extent they are pulling the centre rightwards.

    What we saw in the 80s and are probably beginning to see again is what happens when you take away the threat of electoral punishment due to a shambolic opposition. They do what the **** they want and mostly it's pretty scary.

  31. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Jonesy- View Post
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    Let's be clear here about what the family cap and rape clause really are. If you are wealthy, have all the babies you want, if you are on minimum wage or dependent on state benefits be sure to not have more than two children as the state won't help you pay for their upbringing. This is tacit social engineering from a party that has always put the needs of the rich first.
    I get your point but it's not entirely accurate. Child benefit is but a tiny portion of what the state will provide for children. You then need to add in personal responsibility to the mix.

    That said the changes in child benefit are clearly far too complex and fiddly to be really worth the effort...pure tinkering that will probably gain the square root of **** all.

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