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  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Not sure what i think about social care part - clearly something needd done. I applaud them including an unpopular policy in their manifesto, quite unusual bit shows i think that May is quite straight and serious.
    She called the election at a time her party were around 20% ahead in the polls. She is very very unlikely to lose. Her manifesto is uncosted, drastically reduces a number of social protections, ramps up a number of authoritarian measures - like control of the internet, your data and so on. They can put forward the most right wing manifesto knowing they almost certainly won't lose then claim a mandate. Hardly brave and straightforward.


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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    She called the election at a time her party were around 20% ahead in the polls. She is very very unlikely to lose. Her manifesto is uncosted, drastically reduces a number of social protections, ramps up a number of authoritarian measures - like control of the internet, your data and so on. They can put forward the most right wing manifesto knowing they almost certainly won't lose then claim a mandate. Hardly brave and straightforward.
    Authoritarian and right wing? I disagree.

    And you can claim a mandate when you win. They wont claim it, it will be theirs if they win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Authoritarian and right wing? I disagree.

    And you can claim a mandate when you win. They wont claim it, it will be theirs if they win.
    Do mandates apply when a majority vote is won in Westminster, and/or do majority votes in Holyrood give a mandate?
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Authoritarian and right wing? I disagree.
    Can you explain why you disagree?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Grieves View Post
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    Do mandates apply when a majority vote is won in Westminster, and/or do majority votes in Holyrood give a mandate?
    Asking for a friend
    They count at Westminster, but not at Holyrood.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Grieves View Post
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    Do mandates apply when a majority vote is won in Westminster, and/or do majority votes in Holyrood give a mandate?
    Asking for a friend
    There are no formal rules, its about moral assent of the people. If a westminster govt wins a thumping majority, then they have a thumping mandate. A la new labour.

    If a party wins a majority at Holyrood they too have a thumping mandate - which is why the whole parliament agreed with thr SNP to have a referendum im 2014, and why the UK govt agreed.

    But of coursr holyrood is designed not to have majorities, it is designed to encourage compromise, trade-offs and consensus. And obviously we dont have a majority govt at the moment in holyrood. It is designed to ameliorate that sort of strong govt, as most PR sysyems are.

    Does that help your friend?
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 20-05-2017 at 07:10 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    Can you explain why you disagree?
    Because when i read it, i didnt get the sense it was authoritarian. That is one of those words that people throw about just now, and it is starting to lose its meaning. Erdoga n is authoritarian, putin is authoritarian. Theresa May might have many faults, but i dont think she is authoritarian.

    And right wing? Well obviously if you are on the extreme left, as many here are, everything is right wing, relative to you.

    But abandoning free market orthodoxy, neo-liberalism and rigjt wing libertarianism, in favour of tax rises (possibly) and increasing state involvement in the market are not right wing.

    All in my humble opinion of course.

    Obviously if you hate the tories, objective analysis is more difficult as hatred isnt really rational, its emotional.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 20-05-2017 at 07:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    They count at Westminster, but not at Holyrood.
    No, they are just different parliaments designed in different ways.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    There are no formal rules, its about moral assent of the people. If a westminster govt wins a thumping majority, then they have a thumping mandate. A la new labour.

    If a party wins a majority at Holyrood they too have a thumping mandate - which is why the whole parliament agreed with thr SNP to have a referendum im 2014, and why the UK govt agreed.

    But of coursr holyrood is designed not to have majorities, it is designed to encourage compromise, trade-offs and consensus. And obviously we dont have a majority govt at the moment in holyrood. It is designed to ameliorate that sort of strong govt, as most PR sysyems are.

    Does that help your friend?
    Nah, they got a majority to vote for something at Holyrood, but that doesn't matter according to Westminster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Grieves View Post
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    Nah, they got a majority to vote for something at Holyrood, but that doesn't matter according to Westminster.
    Your friend got back to you quickly...!

    Because there is no great consensus, and it id outwith the the Scottish Parliament's competency.

    This isnt my view, im guessing its the UK govt view.

    No thmuping mandate, no consensus, no public swell of opinion, much easier for the UK gpvt to bat it away as they have done.

    They couldnt have done that in 2014 because their mandate was clear. This time its debateable.

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    I'm a bit confused. Why do the conservatives, and next week Labour, have a second "Scottish" manifesto? That effectively leaves them running as two separate entities - but presumably pool their votes together...

    The conservatives want to not have the means testing for social care and to lower taxes on those earning 45k+ in Scotland - these either directly oppose the "rUK/English conservatives" policies or are more detailed about the tax decrease than them.
    Other policies on pot holes, road maintenance funds, and homes are all Scottish pledges (I'm just cherry picking from BBC - haven't read the Scottish conservative manifesto). How does this work? What use is an MP at sorting these things? Should these not be for when we vote on MSPs?
    Mon the Hibs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    I'm a bit confused. Why do the conservatives, and next week Labour, have a second "Scottish" manifesto? That effectively leaves them running as two separate entities - but presumably pool their votes together...

    The conservatives want to not have the means testing for social care and to lower taxes on those earning 45k+ in Scotland - these either directly oppose the "rUK/English conservatives" policies or are more detailed about the tax decrease than them.
    Other policies on pot holes, road maintenance funds, and homes are all Scottish pledges (I'm just cherry picking from BBC - haven't read the Scottish conservative manifesto). How does this work? What use is an MP at sorting these things? Should these not be for when we vote on MSPs?
    More press coverage as simple as that. Ruth will no doubt be pictured on top a tank while Kez will be asked a question about Tories but answer having a pop at SNP in the first sentence.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    There are no formal rules, its about moral assent of the people. If a westminster govt wins a thumping majority, then they have a thumping mandate. A la new labour.

    If a party wins a majority at Holyrood they too have a thumping mandate - which is why the whole parliament agreed with thr SNP to have a referendum im 2014, and why the UK govt agreed.

    But of coursr holyrood is designed not to have majorities, it is designed to encourage compromise, trade-offs and consensus. And obviously we dont have a majority govt at the moment in holyrood. It is designed to ameliorate that sort of strong govt, as most PR sysyems are.

    Does that help your friend?
    No it doesn't


    A holyrood majority in favour of a referendum on independence was the outcome of the 2016 Scottish election, but according to teresa that is not a mandate, and you agree with her, so you are evidently wrong.
    #Persevered
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    No it doesn't


    A holyrood majority in favour of a referendum on independence was the outcome of the 2016 Scottish election, but according to teresa that is not a mandate, and you agree with her, so you are evidently wrong.
    Ha ha, ok then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Your friend got back to you quickly...!

    Because there is no great consensus, and it id outwith the the Scottish Parliament's competency.

    This isnt my view, im guessing its the UK govt view.

    No thmuping mandate, no consensus, no public swell of opinion, much easier for the UK gpvt to bat it away as they have done.

    They couldnt have done that in 2014 because their mandate was clear. This time its debateable.
    The democratically elected Scottish parliament voted in favour or something, there's your mandate. And if we governed based on public opinion, we would have the death penalty...and be out of Eurovision!

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Because when i read it, i didnt get the sense it was authoritarian. That is one of those words that people throw about just now, and it is starting to lose its meaning. Erdoga n is authoritarian, putin is authoritarian. Theresa May might have many faults, but i dont think she is authoritarian.

    And right wing? Well obviously if you are on the extreme left, as many here are, everything is right wing, relative to you.

    But abandoning free market orthodoxy, neo-liberalism and rigjt wing libertarianism, in favour of tax rises (possibly) and increasing state involvement in the market are not right wing.

    All in my humble opinion of course.

    Obviously if you hate the tories, objective analysis is more difficult as hatred isnt really rational, its emotional.
    This is something you have repeated on here a fair amount recently, but you really need to qualify it, IMO. Labour, SNP and Green all get referred to as extreme left wing by you, so I take it LibDem is just left of centre in your opinion.

    It appears to me that everyone that disagrees with your view is extreme left wing, you also claim to not be a tory voter but you do spend a lot of time defending them and their uncosted manifesto, have you even seen the Scottish Conservative manifesto, most of which is all about devolved powers which are completely irrelevant in the upcoming elections. They are so confused they actually don't know what we are voting for in June.

    As for the call for an independence referendum by the majority of the MSPs at Holyrood (you know, often called a mandate ), what are they afraid off? If they are so confident why not allow one? or maybe they are frit!
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

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    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-a7744176.html

    Back to the tories, I agree that there's some activity on the internet that should be clamped down on, but I'm uncomfortable with some of this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Grieves View Post
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    The democratically elected Scottish parliament voted in favour or something, there's your mandate. And if we governed based on public opinion, we would have the death penalty...and be out of Eurovision!
    On something it has no formal power over.

    Anyway, this has been done to death many times. Some think thetre is a clear mandate, others dont.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Grieves View Post
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    http://www.independent.co.uk/life-st...-a7744176.html

    Back to the tories, I agree that there's some activity on the internet that should be clamped down on, but I'm uncomfortable with some of this.
    It's a difficult issue and maybe they should get some plaudits for at least trying to address it..

    Most people would find it hard to argue with the following statement:

    "It should be as unacceptable to bully online as it is in the playground, as difficult to groom a young child on the internet as it is in a community, as hard for children to access violent and degrading pornography online as it is in the high street, and as difficult to commit a crime digitally as it is physically."

    The devil of course is in the detail and I agree some of their thoughts on how the above might be achieved are not comfortable reading so I'm definitely not supporting the whole gambit, far from it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    This is something you have repeated on here a fair amount recently, but you really need to qualify it, IMO. Labour, SNP and Green all get referred to as extreme left wing by you, so I take it LibDem is just left of centre in your opinion.

    It appears to me that everyone that disagrees with your view is extreme left wing, you also claim to not be a tory voter but you do spend a lot of time defending them and their uncosted manifesto, have you even seen the Scottish Conservative manifesto, most of which is all about devolved powers which are completely irrelevant in the upcoming elections. They are so confused they actually don't know what we are voting for in June.

    As for the call for an independence referendum by the majority of the MSPs at Holyrood (you know, often called a mandate ), what are they afraid off? If they are so confident why not allow one? or maybe they are frit!
    It's all relative, GF. The so called centre ground shifts over time: the 'centre' moved greatly to the right during the eighties and nineties: Thatcher said her greatest achievement was New Labour i.e. moving the arguments on to her ground. The political centre in Scotland is to the left of that in England, so that views which would be considered 'extreme left' in High Wycombe are in the mainstream in Glasgow. The Conservative Party is considered extreme right where I live and not representative of the mainstream at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimBHibees View Post
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    More press coverage as simple as that. Ruth will no doubt be pictured on top a tank while Kez will be asked a question about Tories but answer having a pop at SNP in the first sentence.
    Seems to be the only plausible reason.
    Mon the Hibs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    They couldnt have done that in 2014 because their mandate was clear. This time its debateable.
    By what measure is the mandate less clear now than it was in 2014?

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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    The manifesto did seem to be a little bit short of the actual figures that Labour had produced in theirs, a lot more of the "we'll make a success of this and that and do these things well too" without as much detail or ideas.

    Introducing means testing for winter allowance, without any indication of what the means actually are.
    Reducing taxes for businesses and working families, without an indication of what the new rates and thresholds will be.
    Significant reduction to net migration, without an analysis on what the costs to that will be (the prevailing consensus is that a reduction in net migration will come at a financial cost)

    There are a few things in there that will cost a fair bit of money - university funds, transport investment, tax reductions, military equipment, schools - with little indication of where the money will be coming from.

    I'll caveat all that by saying I skim read the manifesto and I'm open to be proven wrong on any of it if I've missed something obvious!

    I'd quite like to see manifestos being accompanied by a reconciliation of what the costs and savings will do for the country, e.g.:

    Current (Deficit)/Surplus: (69bn)
    Increased funding on NHS: (5bn)
    Increased funding on Education: (5bn)
    Increase IT and NI: 8bn
    Increase Corp tax: 10bn
    Projected (Deficit)/Surplus for 17/18: (61bn)

    Obviously it would all be estimates and projections; but it would give a solid insight into exactly what each party was wanting to do, how they were going to do it and what the financial implications would be. It would then also give a base for the governing party to be judged against.
    Excellent post!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    This is something you have repeated on here a fair amount recently, but you really need to qualify it, IMO. Labour, SNP and Green all get referred to as extreme left wing by you, so I take it LibDem is just left of centre in your opinion.

    It appears to me that everyone that disagrees with your view is extreme left wing, you also claim to not be a tory voter but you do spend a lot of time defending them and their uncosted manifesto, have you even seen the Scottish Conservative manifesto, most of which is all about devolved powers which are completely irrelevant in the upcoming elections. They are so confused they actually don't know what we are voting for in June.

    As for the call for an independence referendum by the majority of the MSPs at Holyrood (you know, often called a mandate ), what are they afraid off? If they are so confident why not allow one? or maybe they are frit!
    I havent refered to the SNP or Lab as extreme left wing, ive referred to some posters on here as extreme left wing, who suplort those parties. The greens, well yeah they are an extreme fringe party.

    I dont think the SNP or lab are extreme left wing, although both contain elements of supporters or that persuasion, and both are tacking in that directiob imo. Bit both parties at their best are firmly centreist, amd economically a strong case could be made that the SNP are right of centre economically, or certainly have been.

    Of course not everyone that disagrees with me is left wing, bit there are a disproportionately high number of posters on here who are. Relative to that, i must appear quite right wing. But the point is that the consensus oftem reached on here is extreme to our society. Parties win elections from the centre, the snp understand this (how many years of council austerity did they impose via their council tax freeze, a hugely popular policy?).

    A snapshot of consensus from regular posters would have us believe that socialism is the dominant position, amd the facts just dont support that.

    I didnt read the tory scottish manifesto, for the reasons you outline above - what is the point? Likeaise thougj, the snp manifesto is likely to talk about areas that are devolved to holyrood. Its the ragged edge of devolution unfortunately.

    They wont call one because they dont want to have one, you and i can speculate on the reasons, and they would probablu all have an element of truth to them. There is a mandare in holyrood, but it is, self evidently, not am irresistable one, it is not backed by popular opinion and is therefore ignorable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    It's all relative, GF. The so called centre ground shifts over time: the 'centre' moved greatly to the right during the eighties and nineties: Thatcher said her greatest achievement was New Labour i.e. moving the arguments on to her ground. The political centre in Scotland is to the left of that in England, so that views which would be considered 'extreme left' in High Wycombe are in the mainstream in Glasgow. The Conservative Party is considered extreme right where I live and not representative of the mainstream at all.
    I would suggest glasgow is quite different to other areas of scotland. Its a bit of a myth imo that scotland is some bastion of socialism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    By what measure is the mandate less clear now than it was in 2014?
    About 45% less support in parliament. Less public support, and a cobbled together coalition of pro indy MSPs, coupled with the fact we recently had one, all make it less compelling than last time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I would suggest glasgow is quite different to other areas of scotland. Its a bit of a myth imo that scotland is some bastion of socialism.
    Red Clydeside; the birth of the Labour Party; the domination of left of centre parties for decades? The centre ground in Scotland is social democratic.
    Last edited by Hibernia&Alba; 20-05-2017 at 06:26 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    About 45% less support in parliament. Less public support, and a cobbled together coalition of pro indy MSPs, coupled with the fact we recently had one, all make it less compelling than last time.
    A cobbled together coalition, they needed 2 extra votes

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    About 45% less support in parliament..
    To be clear, you're talking about the Scottish parliament? How do you get to 45% less support?

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Less public support, ...
    How do you measure this?

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    ... coupled with the fact we recently had one...
    What measurable difference does this make?

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