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    @hibs.net private member Bishop Hibee's Avatar
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    Tories

    I'm not on the Holy Ground often but as I sit here bored waiting for no.3 child to come out the cinema, I am wondering who on here votes Tory? There must be some of you? It can't only be Brian Monteith 😉. Reasons why appreciated also.

    Personally I vote SNP at Scottish and UK elections at present as it seems the best hope of a left of centre government if/when Scotland becomes independent. Little chance of it at UK level.


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    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Is this question in reference to Scotland?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bishop Hibee View Post
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    I'm not on the Holy Ground often but as I sit here bored waiting for no.3 child to come out the cinema, I am wondering who on here votes Tory? There must be some of you? It can't only be Brian Monteith 😉. Reasons why appreciated also.

    Personally I vote SNP at Scottish and UK elections at present as it seems the best hope of a left of centre government if/when Scotland becomes independent. Little chance of it at UK level.
    Im an unashamedly floating voter, but i voted tory at the last holyrood elections.

    Two reasons -

    Tactical vote, i wanted to vote out my local MSP (who was SNP, but it was a personal reason) and tories were strong opposition

    I knew the SNP would win, and since indyref i feel sturgeon had turned them into more of a lefty, weegie type party (undeestandably, to consolidate their gains in the west) but with that, the greens being quite extreme left, and thd labour and lib dems, i felt we needed s strong centre right voice in hlyrood to counter that.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 06-04-2017 at 05:43 AM.

  5. #4
    I never really understand the SNP being described as a 'lefty' party. Whilst they clearly have some policies that are left of centre they also have a number that are most definitely to the right of centre.

    For many years the SNP drew much of their support from the ex Tory voters of Perthsire and other rural areas. As the Tory brand becomes less toxic in Scotland, and there is evidence it is doing so to some extent, the SNP will have to work harder to maintain those voters.

    The SNP has a broad range of people with varied political beliefs which is bound together by the ultimate goal of independence. I'd be surprised if the party in anything resembling it's current guise survived more than a decade if they secured a yes vote.

    Broadly speaking I don't think I've ever felt so disengaged from politics in the party political sense. I always said I would never choose not to vote but if there was a general election tomorrow I wouldn't bother.
    I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women,. Suddenly, uncritically giving no thought to the pain it could bring. - Nick Hornby

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I never really understand the SNP being described as a 'lefty' party. Whilst they clearly have some policies that are left of centre they also have a number that are most definitely to the right of centre.

    For many years the SNP drew much of their support from the ex Tory voters of Perthsire and other rural areas. As the Tory brand becomes less toxic in Scotland, and there is evidence it is doing so to some extent, the SNP will have to work harder to maintain those voters.

    The SNP has a broad range of people with varied political beliefs which is bound together by the ultimate goal of independence. I'd be surprised if the party in anything resembling it's current guise survived more than a decade if they secured a yes vote.

    Broadly speaking I don't think I've ever felt so disengaged from politics in the party political sense. I always said I would never choose not to vote but if there was a general election tomorrow I wouldn't bother.
    I agree with you about the nats, but it was the direction of travel that concerned me, and from what i see and hear, i think sturgeon is on the left of rhe SNP.

    But given the way the other parties were arranged, i thought rhey would be more likely to be pulled left too.

    I voted SNP both votes 2011, and 2007. Cant remember before that, i think i gave a second vote to greens once, believe it or not, and possibly the liv dems too. Dont think i ever voted labour.

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    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    The Tories are playing a blinder. They're out of sight of Labour in UK polls and no signs of Labour catching up anytime soon. They've consolidated their grip on the centre and have now made positives moves on the far right by adopting UKIP policies and populism post brexit vote. There's growing consensus amongst some academics that brexit has turned out exactly as the Tories intended it to and that brexit will see long term tory domination of Westminster for the foreseeable future. An utterly contemptuous party that have somehow convinced the many that the interests of the few are what's best for the country.

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    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    The Tories are playing a blinder. They're out of sight of Labour in UK polls and no signs of Labour catching up anytime soon. They've consolidated their grip on the centre and have now made positives moves on the far right by adopting UKIP policies and populism post brexit vote. There's growing consensus amongst some academics that brexit has turned out exactly as the Tories intended it to and that brexit will see long term tory domination of Westminster for the foreseeable future. An utterly contemptuous party that have somehow convinced the many that the interests of the few are what's best for the country.
    They're benefitting from the most incompetant Labour administration ever.

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    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colr View Post
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    They're benefitting from the most incompetant Labour administration ever.
    add that to the mix.

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    The Tories are an establishment preserving party who count on the middle classes as footsoldiers by providing sops to give them a sense of superiority over working class people and limit social mobility.

    Much as I like the lifestyle, I find the English middle classes to be a self-serving, nasty, entitled bunch of ****s so I don't think I will find a motivation to vote Tory although I don't rule it out if other candidates are more objectionable.

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    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    The Tories are playing a blinder. They're out of sight of Labour in UK polls and no signs of Labour catching up anytime soon. They've consolidated their grip on the centre and have now made positives moves on the far right by adopting UKIP policies and populism post brexit vote. There's growing consensus amongst some academics that brexit has turned out exactly as the Tories intended it to and that brexit will see long term tory domination of Westminster for the foreseeable future. An utterly contemptuous party that have somehow convinced the many that the interests of the few are what's best for the country.
    I think they need to be a bit careful.

    As they chase those votes for the lunatic right wing fringe (where everyone seems to think that the English consensus lies at the moment) they risk alienating the moderate centre right voters within their voter base.

    Whilst 52% of the UK voted to leave the EU, that was still a sizeable 48% who wanted to remain, and their votes are up for grabs as the Tories appear to be lurching to the right.

    I've taken a long time to understand my own political beliefs - I think they end up cancelling each other out somewhere in the middle but I have right wing beliefs on some subjects, left wing on others and probably end up just to the left. From there, it is much easier to find things in common with the centre-right than the far left or certainly the far-right.

    I don't think the Tory brand being as toxic as it is is helpful for Scotland. The amount of success you can have in an argument by referring to red Tories or tartan Tories is childish and really unhelpful.

    I suppose the Labour brand, those "red Tories" is severely damaged as well.

    What I'd love to see would be an Independent Scotland, where the SNP dissolve and the Labour and Conservative parties re-launch and re-brand as something different. We can then have an adult conversation with meaningful contributions from all parts of the political spectrum and Scotland can take it in the direction it sees fit.

    I'm not a Tory, not by a long shot, but I do quite like Ruth Davidson and the way she carries her unpopular message to much of Scotland. I wouldn't rule to voting for a centre-right party post-Independence.

    When I was a lot younger I was a very left-wing idealist. I work in the healthcare sector though, and that is probably what I understand best and know most about. It's quite an eye-opener to see the NHS for what it is and how it is abused by politicians, patients and often clinicians yet seemingly is immune to criticism. It is a fantastic idea which deserves so much better, yet the reality is somewhat different.

  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Scottish Tories have, IMO, generally always had more of an acceptable nature about them than their English counterparts. I'm not sure why that should be, but I'm more comfortable with them being part of the process of Government up here than driving it at Westminster.

    As a related aside, but not wanting to hijack the debate, a school mate of mine.....

    http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.co...dies-1-4409165

    Sent from my SM-A510F using Tapatalk

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    I think they need to be a bit careful.

    As they chase those votes for the lunatic right wing fringe (where everyone seems to think that the English consensus lies at the moment) they risk alienating the moderate centre right voters within their voter base.

    Whilst 52% of the UK voted to leave the EU, that was still a sizeable 48% who wanted to remain, and their votes are up for grabs as the Tories appear to be lurching to the right.

    I've taken a long time to understand my own political beliefs - I think they end up cancelling each other out somewhere in the middle but I have right wing beliefs on some subjects, left wing on others and probably end up just to the left. From there, it is much easier to find things in common with the centre-right than the far left or certainly the far-right.

    I don't think the Tory brand being as toxic as it is is helpful for Scotland. The amount of success you can have in an argument by referring to red Tories or tartan Tories is childish and really unhelpful.

    I suppose the Labour brand, those "red Tories" is severely damaged as well.

    What I'd love to see would be an Independent Scotland, where the SNP dissolve and the Labour and Conservative parties re-launch and re-brand as something different. We can then have an adult conversation with meaningful contributions from all parts of the political spectrum and Scotland can take it in the direction it sees fit.

    I'm not a Tory, not by a long shot, but I do quite like Ruth Davidson and the way she carries her unpopular message to much of Scotland. I wouldn't rule to voting for a centre-right party post-Independence.

    When I was a lot younger I was a very left-wing idealist. I work in the healthcare sector though, and that is probably what I understand best and know most about. It's quite an eye-opener to see the NHS for what it is and how it is abused by politicians, patients and often clinicians yet seemingly is immune to criticism. It is a fantastic idea which deserves so much better, yet the reality is somewhat different.
    Good post mate.

    I also think it is limiting to have the debate curtailed so much. The levels of hatred for the tories has always puzzled me. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that theu effectively won rhe great ideological battles of the 60s and 70s, and effectively gutted the left and labour, eho subsequently hate them for it.

    I also think there is something offensive and sanctimonious about much of the left, a sensr that they are the only ones who care, and that anyone who disagrees is bad. I think partly this tendency to foam at the mouth, dismiss opponents as 'tories' or argue back with some obscure piece of academic theory/ideology is why they are now doing so badly.

    I also believe they are very consrvative, particularly labour here in Scotland, who fought against change so often,and still view fhe world as it was in the 70s rather than how it is now. Its why the SNP were such an invigorating force when they swept them away.

    Add in that most, if not all, practical experiments with sociaism have been horrible, dehumanisng and have failed spectacularly, i can see why the left are so embittered.

    What i find odd, and actually damaging to us all, is the complete intellectual bankruptcy that seems to exist now. We need good ideas from the left, but they are sadly lacking. Ironically, it is their consrvatism that is seeing them beco.e consigned to history.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Good post mate.

    I also think it is limiting to have the debate curtailed so much. The levels of hatred for the tories has always puzzled me. I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that theu effectively won rhe great ideological battles of the 60s and 70s, and effectively gutted the left and labour, eho subsequently hate them for it.

    I also think there is something offensive and sanctimonious about much of the left, a sensr that they are the only ones who care, and that anyone who disagrees is bad. I think partly this tendency to foam at the mouth, dismiss opponents as 'tories' or argue back with some obscure piece of academic theory/ideology is why they are now doing so badly.

    I also believe they are very consrvative, particularly labour here in Scotland, who fought against change so often,and still view fhe world as it was in the 70s rather than how it is now. Its why the SNP were such an invigorating force when they swept them away.

    Add in that most, if not all, practical experiments with sociaism have been horrible, dehumanisng and have failed spectacularly, i can see why the left are so embittered.

    What i find odd, and actually damaging to us all, is the complete intellectual bankruptcy that seems to exist now. We need good ideas from the left, but they are sadly lacking. Ironically, it is their consrvatism that is seeing them beco.e consigned to history.
    I can certainly sympathise with your 2nd paragraph given my experience with and involvement in left wing movements at uni and beyond. A hell of a lot of people involved were undoubtedly intelligent but they were lazy barstewards who wanted to give the illusion of caring and helping without ever actually rolling their sleeves up and doing any graft. I was regularly ridiculed for doing charity work as it 'enforced the system in which the goverment shirks it's duties and the public picks up the pieces'. Whilst I broadly agree with the sentiment I am also rooted enough in the real world to realise that that isn't going to change in the next week, month, year or decade so going out and being of some practical help is more useful than smoking a joint and quoting everyone from Marx to Benn to Chomsky constantly.

    There are certainly a lot of good people on the left but the issue is that in one of it's key grassroots areas, student politics, it is dominated by a group of people who have no practical experience of the struggles faced by those they claim to want to 'emancipate'.
    I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women,. Suddenly, uncritically giving no thought to the pain it could bring. - Nick Hornby

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    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I never really understand the SNP being described as a 'lefty' party. Whilst they clearly have some policies that are left of centre they also have a number that are most definitely to the right of centre.

    For many years the SNP drew much of their support from the ex Tory voters of Perthsire and other rural areas. As the Tory brand becomes less toxic in Scotland, and there is evidence it is doing so to some extent, the SNP will have to work harder to maintain those voters.

    The SNP has a broad range of people with varied political beliefs which is bound together by the ultimate goal of independence. I'd be surprised if the party in anything resembling it's current guise survived more than a decade if they secured a yes vote.

    Broadly speaking I don't think I've ever felt so disengaged from politics in the party political sense. I always said I would never choose not to vote but if there was a general election tomorrow I wouldn't bother.
    Second paragraph, I recently saw a projection for all Scottish Council Elections and Perth and Kinross (my LA) is projected to go from minority SNP to minority Conservative led. That will be the first time in 28 years that the Conservatives have been in ascendancy in Perthshire. I mentioned it to my manager and he went white!! he knows the current administration well and is not excited by the change, and not for political reasons.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  16. #15
    I voted Labour up until 2015 but like many voters in Scotland have since switched to the Tories - primarily as an anti-SNP vote but I've subsequently been impressed by Ruth Davidson and am not surprised to read she's the bookies' favourite to become Scotland's next First Minister.

    In terms of 'Tory' Hibs fans, I posted similar on a thread in the main forum but in addition to the aforementioned Brian Monteith, the following are/were Tories:

    The late Sir Alex Fletcher (long-serving Conservative MP for Edinburgh North and Leith in the days when the Tories still returned a respectable number of Scottish MPs to Westminster)
    The late Brian Meek (veteran Edinburgh councillor and journalist). I once spotted fellow Conservative Sir Malcolm Rifkind sitting with him in the old centre stand at Easter Road but was never sure if Rifkind was actually a Hibs fan.
    Ramsay Dalgety QC (former vice-chairman of the Hibs Supporters Association and leading player in the Hands Off Hibs campaign).
    John Gibson (long-time Edinburgh Evening News columnist)

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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I voted Labour up until 2015 but like many voters in Scotland have since switched to the Tories - primarily as an anti-SNP vote but I've subsequently been impressed by Ruth Davidson and am not surprised to read she's the bookies' favourite to become Scotland's next First Minister.

    In terms of 'Tory' Hibs fans, I posted similar on a thread in the main forum but in addition to the aforementioned Brian Monteith, the following are/were Tories:

    The late Sir Alex Fletcher (long-serving Conservative MP for Edinburgh North and Leith in the days when the Tories still returned a respectable number of Scottish MPs to Westminster)
    The late Brian Meek (veteran Edinburgh councillor and journalist). I once spotted fellow Conservative Sir Malcolm Rifkind sitting with him in the old centre stand at Easter Road but was never sure if Rifkind was actually a Hibs fan.
    Ramsay Dalgety QC (former vice-chairman of the Hibs Supporters Association and leading player in the Hands Off Hibs campaign).
    John Gibson (long-time Edinburgh Evening News columnist)
    Rifkind was my MP when I was growing up which is why my already bog-standard education was continually interupted by unions who targetted my school for strikes and a ban on teachers supervising after-school activities thus exascerbating the advantage of the privately educated elite!

    Thanks, brother-****ers!

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    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Malcolm Rifkind was a very good constituency MP even after he became a cabinet minister. He attended meetings in our house fairly often (my mum was involved in various community groups/initiatives) and, regardless of what Thatcher was doing at the time, he was always very supportive and managed to pull strings when required.

    I remember one Monday night I had a game of 5s after work and eventually got home about 9ish - I nearly crapped myself when I walked in the front door to be confronted by 2 bodyguards (Rifikind was Foreign Secretary at the time IIRC).
    Last edited by Peevemor; 06-04-2017 at 09:50 AM.

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    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    The Tories are playing a blinder. They're out of sight of Labour in UK polls and no signs of Labour catching up anytime soon. They've consolidated their grip on the centre and have now made positives moves on the far right by adopting UKIP policies and populism post brexit vote. There's growing consensus amongst some academics that brexit has turned out exactly as the Tories intended it to and that brexit will see long term tory domination of Westminster for the foreseeable future. An utterly contemptuous party that have somehow convinced the many that the interests of the few are what's best for the country.

  20. #19
    Rifkind was also my local MP when growing up and I always remember him being very visible at community events.

    My Grandad was and is as anti Tory as you can get but even he had a grudging respect for Rifkinds attitude to his constituency work.
    I fell in love with football as I was later to fall in love with women,. Suddenly, uncritically giving no thought to the pain it could bring. - Nick Hornby

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    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Rifkind has never been my cup of tea at all, in fact I've always thought of him as one of the worst.

    https://tompride.wordpress.com/2015/...more-than-nhs/

    Scots at Westminster have often been my least favourite politicians and the utterly repugnant Michael Gove is continuing that fine tradition of really grinding my gears.

    It was always the Ken Clarke end of the party that I found the most acceptable.

    I used to detest Michael Forsyth but the last couple of times I saw him on TV I was disgusted to find myself agreeing with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    Have you ever considered thatnthe majority vote for them because they are right?

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    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Have you ever considered thatnthe majority vote for them because they are right?
    36.9% is in no way a majority (2015 General Election)

    Nor is 22% (2016 Scottish Election)

    But don't let the truth get in the way of your facts.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    Rifkind was also my local MP when growing up and I always remember him being very visible at community events.

    My Grandad was and is as anti Tory as you can get but even he had a grudging respect for Rifkinds attitude to his constituency work.
    I certainly remember him coming to the door to canvas votes. He was on his own doing it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    36.9% is in no way a majority (2015 General Election)

    Nor is 22% (2016 Scottish Election)

    But don't let the truth get in the way of your facts.
    Well you generallu dont!

    Ok, you got me on a technical point.

    Perhaps why they are the most populat party nationwide, and sdcond most popular in scotland.

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    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Have you ever considered thatnthe majority vote for them because they are right?
    Majority?

    22% of the constituency vote at the 2016 Scottish Election.

    1 MP from 59 Westminster constituencies.

    Even UK wide they only polled 37%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    Majority?

    22% of the constituency vote at the 2016 Scottish Election.

    1 MP from 59 Westminster constituencies.

    Even UK wide they only polled 37%.
    I corrected the point above.

    Not the majority, but more than other parties?

  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I corrected the point above.

    Not the majority, but more than other parties?
    .......but not even close in Scotland

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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    .......but not even close in Scotland
    But we arent talking about just Scotland.

    And historically they habe been very strong in Scotland, amd have now risen to be the official opposition. Must be doing something right...

  30. #29
    @hibs.net private member Mon Dieu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I voted Labour up until 2015 but like many voters in Scotland have since switched to the Tories - primarily as an anti-SNP vote but I've subsequently been impressed by Ruth Davidson and am not surprised to read she's the bookies' favourite to become Scotland's next First Minister.

    In terms of 'Tory' Hibs fans, I posted similar on a thread in the main forum but in addition to the aforementioned Brian Monteith, the following are/were Tories:

    The late Sir Alex Fletcher (long-serving Conservative MP for Edinburgh North and Leith in the days when the Tories still returned a respectable number of Scottish MPs to Westminster)
    The late Brian Meek (veteran Edinburgh councillor and journalist). I once spotted fellow Conservative Sir Malcolm Rifkind sitting with him in the old centre stand at Easter Road but was never sure if Rifkind was actually a Hibs fan.
    Ramsay Dalgety QC (former vice-chairman of the Hibs Supporters Association and leading player in the Hands Off Hibs campaign).
    John Gibson (long-time Edinburgh Evening News columnist)
    There is more chance of me signing for Hibs, scoring the winner in the champions league final then nailing Mila Kunis on a rocket to mars than Davidson becoming the next first minister

  31. #30
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    But we arent talking about just Scotland.

    And historically they habe been very strong in Scotland, amd have now risen to be the official opposition. Must be doing something right...
    I was (talking about Scotland) or do you now dictate the content of the debate?

    Historically being the 1950's?

    There will always be a core Conservative vote, mainly made up of those who want to protect what they've got. Thatcherites I'd call them.

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