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  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    Ultimately some of the key questions for me are, after five years of this manifesto, will there be:

    More or less inequality?
    More or fewer homeless?
    More or fewer food banks?
    Better or worse public services?
    More or fewer students in debt?
    More or fewer pensioners in poverty?
    Higher or lower incomes for the majority?
    Stronger or weaker environmental protections?
    More or fewer secure jobs?
    More or fewer families living in temporary accommodation?


    This will do for a start. If, after five years, there is progress, I will be more than happy to give credit where it's due.
    Fair enough mate, not a bad set of measures.

    I disagree about equality though, thats a deceptive measure imo. Equality of opportunity, absolutely, but equality of outcome, absolutely not - but this is probably a whole differemt debate!


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  3. #632
    @hibs.net private member McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacoluna View Post
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    Tories manifesto - Indyref 2 should not take place unless there is public consent for it. This is what riles me. Its complete hypocrisy as well as undemocratic. I know this topic has been talked about over and over again however its clear that the Tories do not respect the SCOTGOV elections and only see it as a place of mitigation.

    regardless of ones opinion on indyref2, this point makes no sense to me (this isn't a dig at you Pacoluna, only the manifesto point) - isn't it a vicious circle? Need public consent for a referendum, but can't get public consent without a referendum, so need public consent and so on.

    Are they suggesting a referendum to decide if we should have another (Indy) referendum?

  4. #633
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    Guardian editorial on manifesto -

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    Theresa May launching the Conservative manifesto

    The Guardian view on Theresa May’s manifesto: a new Toryism
    Editorial
    Like Tony Blair in 1997, Mrs May is where the majority of voters are: to the left on the economy and to the right on social issues. She plays to this mood, a political judgment that risks society closing in on itself rather than opening up

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    Thursday 18 May 2017 19.43 BST Last modified on Thursday 18 May 2017 19.52 BST

    Theresa May’s manifesto reveals more about her plans to refound the Conservative party than her plans to run the country. Her programme for the Tories would read as a heretical document to many in her party, brought up on a diet of state-shrinking, me-first Thatcherism. Instead, Mrs May talks about rejecting the “cult of selfish individualism” and says her party does not now believe in “untrammelled free markets”. To see how big a leap this is. consider how much the Conservative party of the recent past changed the temper of Britain, fostering a mood of materialistic individualism. Mrs May consciously jettisons this individualist heritage because she knows that the public associate Thatcherism less with an unleashing of economic virtue than an unfettering of the social vices of selfishness and greed. It has contributed, as Mrs May has long contended, to the Conservatives’ reputation as the “nasty party”.

    In many ways Mrs May is swimming with, not against, the political tide. No classical liberal party is contesting this election. Both Labour and the Liberal Democrats have moved leftwards. By proposing to cancel key Lib Dem achievements – such as the constitutional reform of fixed-term parliaments – Mrs May signals that she wishes to wipe out traces of “Liberalism” from government.

    Live General election 2017: ITV hosts first leaders debate – politics live
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    There’s a mood afoot in the country against free markets and a cultural change in favour of a politics that combines greater economic justice with more social concord. Mrs May taps into this when she talks of the NHS as part of a system of solidarity that is more than mutual self-interest. This sits awkwardly with the harsh reality that the NHS is under the worst financial pressure it has ever faced. But if Mrs May can persuade voters that she can be trusted with the NHS then she will have succeeded in capturing key electoral terrain with what appears to be very little extra money.

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    There is also a significant break with her predecessor David Cameron, who claimed “there is such a thing as society, it’s just not the same thing as the state”. For Mrs May there is such a thing as society and it needs a state. Her industrial strategy includes an unlikely proposal to modernise the shipbuilding industry. This is in part about resetting today’s liberal market society, where the maximum amount of social coordination occurs through market mechanisms. Instead Mrs May proposes to intervene when she thinks the government can do better than the market. Conservative apostasy, maybe, but it is also smart politics.

    The ambition to break with four decades of market liberalisation could easily be thwarted by Brexit, further free-trade deals and sweeteners to the City of London. The weakness of her philosophy is that it rests upon a nationalistic response that raises unrealistic expectations about what this country can do alone. In Mrs May’s Britain, certain events galvanise brief intense interest and political engagement. One of these is Brexit. The most powerful driver of her support is the false perception that Britain is under attack by either internal or external enemies. It drives Mrs May to openly promote the worst possible outcome for Brexit Britain: walking away from the EU without a deal. Sometimes realism triumphs over idealism. While she is sticking by her pledge to reduce immigration to the “tens of thousands”, there will be exemptions for skilled workers in “strategic industries”.


    Like Tony Blair in 1997, Mrs May is where the majority of voters are: to the left on the economy and to the right on social issues. She plays to this mood, a political judgment that risks society closing in on itself rather than opening up. She is surely sincere in saying she wants to change Britain for the better. But she missed opportunities here. The proposal, for example, to put the burden of paying for social care at home on the pensioner rather than the state undermines the solidarity she rates so highly. The need for care because of, say, dementia, is just the kind of random act of chance the state should insure against.

    In favouring meritocracy, she erodes her recognition that success is mutually created. Meritocrats believe their own myths about succeeding on their own. It is why Mrs May has ended up with a wrong-headed obsession with grammar schools. Flourishing happens in complex webs of relationships. The counter to inequality is community, but it is also complexity and cooperation. Simplistic solutions risk entrenching privilege rather than challenging it. Forward Together, says Mrs May, but where to? Nobody knows.

  5. #634
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Because how can you possibly disprove something like that? All she would be doing would be making herself vulnerable to a newspaper digging up a story about some nurse who blew all her wages early in the month and so had to visit a foodbank for a handput. Technically, such a nurse would have needed to visit a food bank. But it would habe been as a result of their own ****witteriness, than 'poverty wages' being paid to nurses.
    Nice. Have you ever thought of standing as a Conservative candidate? You seem to have the necessary skills.

  6. #635
    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    Maybe the people who were there when you were "out of earshot".

    They'd make reliable witnesses.

    As for you, you weren't there and didn't hear anything, by your own admission, but you "presume" these horrible anti-English SNP members................

    Just forget it.

    You've got an agenda.

    We know that.
    Sorry, you've lost me. What is it that I should 'just forget'? And where did I say those involved were SNP members?

    My intention was solely to use the incident as an example of anti-English attitudes that I personally came across during the last referendum campaign. I'm not saying there isn't just as much 'anti-Jock' nonsense spouted down south, just that I think it would be wrong to claim such attitudes don't exist in Scotland. J K Rowling, I recall, was one of the more high profile recipients of abuse after making her opposition to independence very public:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/726...h-nationalists

    As for my 'agenda', I have none other than to make my views clear when engaging in what I hope is respectful debate on this forum. I'm not here to try and change anyone's mind, nor indeed expecting to.

  7. #636
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    ‪I've summarised the manifesto for those short of time:
    1. Asset strip the elderly.
    2. Snatch meals from primary children.
    3. Evade the issue of tax evaders but continue to punish the working poor.
    4. Strong and stable platitude/ Corbyn is a danger to national security.
    5. Foreigners are bad, as are foxes.

    J

  8. #637
    @hibs.net private member Mon Dieu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Sorry, you've lost me. What is it that I should 'just forget'? And where did I say those involved were SNP members?

    My intention was solely to use the incident as an example of anti-English attitudes that I personally came across during the last referendum campaign. I'm not saying there isn't just as much 'anti-Jock' nonsense spouted down south, just that I think it would be wrong to claim such attitudes don't exist in Scotland. J K Rowling, I recall, was one of the more high profile recipients of abuse after making her opposition to independence very public:

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/726...h-nationalists

    As for my 'agenda', I have none other than to make my views clear when engaging in what I hope is respectful debate on this forum. I'm not here to try and change anyone's mind, nor indeed expecting to.
    What happened to Rowling was out of order, but we are talking twitter here, you could have just found a cure for cancer and post about it and some people would still call you a ****

  9. #638
    Quote Originally Posted by Mon Dieu4 View Post
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    What happened to Rowling was out of order, but we are talking twitter here, you could have just found a cure for cancer and post about it and some people would still call you a ****
    Well indeed, which is why I'll never go near Twitter myself. By that token Rowling was probably a little foolhardy to try and take such dafties on, but as you say nobody should be subjected to such cowardly abuse.

  10. #639
    @hibs.net private member Mon Dieu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Well indeed, which is why I'll never go near Twitter myself. By that token Rowling was probably a little foolhardy to try and take such dafties on, but as you say nobody should be subjected to such cowardly abuse.
    She should take them on, she has every right to believe in whatever she wants as do we all, the media played their part in this one though, by their own admission it was around 20 people that messaged her, 20 too many but in the grand scheme of things isn't a true reflection on a country or people who support independence

  11. #640
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    hopefully jk rowling never receives the level of disgusting vile abuse that our first minister Nicola Sturgeon received after congratulating the winners of the 2016 Scottish Cup, albeit it most likely because her Husband supports the 2016 Scottish cup winners, thanks Nicola hen i'm sure she will be a hibby now (through marriage)
    Last edited by cabbageandribs1875; 19-05-2017 at 01:11 AM.

  12. #641
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    Nice. Have you ever thought of standing as a Conservative candidate? You seem to have the necessary skills.
    No, i haven't thanks, i dont support any party.
    Last edited by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy; 19-05-2017 at 06:27 AM.

  13. #642
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    I was going to put this on the General election voting intention thread but I see it is closed

    A wee bit of analysis on the Conservative manifesto from the BBC (I know!)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39973399
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  14. #643
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    ‪I've summarised the manifesto for those short of time:
    1. Asset strip the elderly.
    2. Snatch meals from primary children.
    3. Evade the issue of tax evaders but continue to punish the working poor.
    4. Strong and stable platitude/ Corbyn is a danger to national security.
    5. Foreigners are bad, as are foxes.

    J
    Brilliantly accurate.

  15. #644
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    I was going to put this on the General election voting intention thread but I see it is closed

    A wee bit of analysis on the Conservative manifesto from the BBC (I know!)

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2017-39973399
    The manifesto did seem to be a little bit short of the actual figures that Labour had produced in theirs, a lot more of the "we'll make a success of this and that and do these things well too" without as much detail or ideas.

    Introducing means testing for winter allowance, without any indication of what the means actually are.
    Reducing taxes for businesses and working families, without an indication of what the new rates and thresholds will be.
    Significant reduction to net migration, without an analysis on what the costs to that will be (the prevailing consensus is that a reduction in net migration will come at a financial cost)

    There are a few things in there that will cost a fair bit of money - university funds, transport investment, tax reductions, military equipment, schools - with little indication of where the money will be coming from.

    I'll caveat all that by saying I skim read the manifesto and I'm open to be proven wrong on any of it if I've missed something obvious!

    I'd quite like to see manifestos being accompanied by a reconciliation of what the costs and savings will do for the country, e.g.:

    Current (Deficit)/Surplus: (£69bn)
    Increased funding on NHS: (£5bn)
    Increased funding on Education: (£5bn)
    Increase IT and NI: £8bn
    Increase Corp tax: £10bn
    Projected (Deficit)/Surplus for 17/18: (£61bn)

    Obviously it would all be estimates and projections; but it would give a solid insight into exactly what each party was wanting to do, how they were going to do it and what the financial implications would be. It would then also give a base for the governing party to be judged against.
    Mon the Hibs.

  16. #645
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    The manifesto did seem to be a little bit short of the actual figures that Labour had produced in theirs, a lot more of the "we'll make a success of this and that and do these things well too" without as much detail or ideas.

    Introducing means testing for winter allowance, without any indication of what the means actually are.
    Reducing taxes for businesses and working families, without an indication of what the new rates and thresholds will be.
    Significant reduction to net migration, without an analysis on what the costs to that will be (the prevailing consensus is that a reduction in net migration will come at a financial cost)

    There are a few things in there that will cost a fair bit of money - university funds, transport investment, tax reductions, military equipment, schools - with little indication of where the money will be coming from.

    I'll caveat all that by saying I skim read the manifesto and I'm open to be proven wrong on any of it if I've missed something obvious!

    I'd quite like to see manifestos being accompanied by a reconciliation of what the costs and savings will do for the country, e.g.:

    Current (Deficit)/Surplus: (£69bn)
    Increased funding on NHS: (£5bn)
    Increased funding on Education: (£5bn)
    Increase IT and NI: £8bn
    Increase Corp tax: £10bn
    Projected (Deficit)/Surplus for 17/18: (£61bn)

    Obviously it would all be estimates and projections; but it would give a solid insight into exactly what each party was wanting to do, how they were going to do it and what the financial implications would be. It would then also give a base for the governing party to be judged against.

    That's exactly where I am as well. It is lots of nice 'wish list' proposals with no details on HOW it will be achieved. A bit like the Union parties were saying about the Independence White Paper if I remember correctly.

    Unfortunately our PM is unwilling to actually debate these to enlighten the electorate.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  17. #646
    Testimonial Due Geo_1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    That's exactly where I am as well. It is lots of nice 'wish list' proposals with no details on HOW it will be achieved. A bit like the Union parties were saying about the Independence White Paper if I remember correctly.

    Unfortunately our PM is unwilling to actually debate these to enlighten the electorate.
    If the Tory Manifesto was a job application they wouldn't get an interview (and probably be sanctioned for not trying hard enough).

  18. #647
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    Im shocked. Lots of left leaning posters on here who hate the tories, dont think much of the tory manifesto. I'm really shocked.

  19. #648
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Im shocked. Lots of left leaning posters on here who hate the tories, dont think much of the tory manifesto. I'm really shocked.

    So little substance it doesn't need much thought TBH.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  20. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Im shocked. Lots of left leaning posters on here who hate the tories, dont think much of the tory manifesto. I'm really shocked.
    I don't think May is the worst of the Tories by any means. By Tory standards she is a moderate and is preferable to any of those on the right of the party. She's going to win, but I think that mans five more years of pain for millions of struggling people, whilst those at the top will do just great once again.
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  21. #650
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Im shocked. Lots of left leaning posters on here who hate the tories, dont think much of the tory manifesto. I'm really shocked.
    What are your thoughts SH?

    Do you not think it could have been costed a bit better, and have some details as to what they actually propose to do i.e. how they will means test pensioners and what the cut off will be, or how much they plan to lower income tax or further lower corporation tax, or an idea of where the money will come from to fund the NHS/Education if not through increased tax?

    FWIW, as with probably any manifesto, there are of course good pledges in there. For instance:

    Half homelessness in this parliament, and eliminate by 2027
    Fair debt policy
    A national living wage as a % of median wage
    The beginnings of looking into corporate pay ratios (although I'm not sure they've actually said much on what they'll do)
    Mon the Hibs.

  22. #651
    @hibs.net private member Mon Dieu4's Avatar
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    Some of the things in the regulation of the Internet part of their manifesto is getting a bit 1984

  23. #652
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    That's exactly where I am as well. It is lots of nice 'wish list' proposals with no details on HOW it will be achieved. A bit like the Union parties were saying about the Independence White Paper if I remember correctly. Unfortunately our PM is unwilling to actually debate these to enlighten the electorate.
    "Nice"? Really???

  24. #653
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grunt View Post
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    "Nice"? Really???
    No. That's aimed at the tory apologists.

    I have previously been attacked for calling them despicable.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  25. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    No. That's aimed at the tory apologists.

    I have previously been attacked for calling them despicable.
    I think "nasty" covers it for me.

  26. #655
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    Quote Originally Posted by danhibees1875 View Post
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    What are your thoughts SH?

    Do you not think it could have been costed a bit better, and have some details as to what they actually propose to do i.e. how they will means test pensioners and what the cut off will be, or how much they plan to lower income tax or further lower corporation tax, or an idea of where the money will come from to fund the NHS/Education if not through increased tax?

    FWIW, as with probably any manifesto, there are of course good pledges in there. For instance:

    Half homelessness in this parliament, and eliminate by 2027
    Fair debt policy
    A national living wage as a % of median wage
    The beginnings of looking into corporate pay ratios (although I'm not sure they've actually said much on what they'll do)
    The funny thing is, im not a tory but i find myself defending them lots on here!

    I thought it was quite heavy on prose for a manifesto, which tp be honest put me off a bit (i prefer bullet points!) - bit that may have been partly due to the content, which i agree is 'aspirational' (lots of 'we will' etc) rather than anything which lends itself to itemised list.

    Ive said previously, i think its a major change in direction for the tories, and it is now clear the GE was called to free May from relying on her own right wing too much.

    Not sure what i think about social care part - clearly something needd done. I applaud them including an unpopular policy in their manifesto, quite unusual bit shows i think that May is quite straight and serious.

    Id say overall its not inspiring, or eye catching, it seems a bit like her - dull but pragmatic?

  27. #656
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    The funny thing is, im not a tory but i find myself defending them lots on here!

    I thought it was quite heavy on prose for a manifesto, which tp be honest put me off a bit (i prefer bullet points!) - bit that may have been partly due to the content, which i agree is 'aspirational' (lots of 'we will' etc) rather than anything which lends itself to itemised list.

    Ive said previously, i think its a major change in direction for the tories, and it is now clear the GE was called to free May from relying on her own right wing too much.

    Not sure what i think about social care part - clearly something needd done. I applaud them including an unpopular policy in their manifesto, quite unusual bit shows i think that May is quite straight and serious.

    Id say overall its not inspiring, or eye catching, it seems a bit like her - dull but pragmatic?
    Come on now
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  28. #657
    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    The funny thing is, im not a tory but i find myself defending them lots on here!

    I thought it was quite heavy on prose for a manifesto, which tp be honest put me off a bit (i prefer bullet points!) - bit that may have been partly due to the content, which i agree is 'aspirational' (lots of 'we will' etc) rather than anything which lends itself to itemised list.

    Ive said previously, i think its a major change in direction for the tories, and it is now clear the GE was called to free May from relying on her own right wing too much.

    Not sure what i think about social care part - clearly something needd done. I applaud them including an unpopular policy in their manifesto, quite unusual bit shows i think that May is quite straight and serious.

    Id say overall its not inspiring, or eye catching, it seems a bit like her - dull but pragmatic?
    Haha I wasn't accusing you of being a Tory. Just curious on your opinion on it since the lefty backlash clearly wasn't to your liking

    Totally agree that it didn't make for easy reading like the labour one did with the collumns, bullet points, and better spacing - at least it was less pages!


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  29. #658
    Scottish Tories now "demanding" that the Scottish Government step in and protect winter fuel payments. Just like their bedroom tax and their rape clause, they expect the Scottish Government to pull funding out of elsewhere to mitigate their own parties policies.

  30. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    Scottish Tories now "demanding" that the Scottish Government step in and protect winter fuel payments. Just like their bedroom tax and their rape clause, they expect the Scottish Government to pull funding out of elsewhere to mitigate their own parties policies.
    Yep, I'd always suspected that Shouty Ruth likes to have her cake and eat it, that's just the icing on top.

  31. #660
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-39968167

    So much of the 'scottish' cons manifesto is irrelevant for a general election
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

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