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Thread: Indy Ref 2

  1. #1861
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    We already are.

    It seems to me Scotland is such an underpopulated country with vast areas ideal for scope to aid population growth and become a much more diverse and cosmopolitan country?

    glory glory
    By building new cities? Who is going to populate them? We alrwady have open borders and a growing population.

    Where would they go? What would be their purpose, and how would they make Scotland more 'cosmopolitan and diverse'?


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  3. #1862
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    You'd admit though Scotland's landscape is very sparsely populated with the potential to build new cities the size of Glasgow and Edinburgh which would aid population growth and aid Scotland becoming a much more diverse and cosmopolitan country?

    glory glory
    Absobloodylutely not!!

    Sparsely populated, yes, for good reason. the landscape!! what do you envisage? 120,000 homes built on the side of Ben Nevis, 240,000 homes on Ardnamurchan peninsula? Infrastructure??? Your not being realistic, expansion where infrastructure already exists is a far more reasonable proposition rather building a 'new town'


    http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2005/02/20624/51512

    NEW DEVELOPMENT

    10. In the more accessible and densely populated rural areas most new development will continue to be in, or adjacent to, existing settlements. Green belts will continue to presume against most new development and play a key role in maintaining the setting and separation of towns and cities. Any proposals to release land for development which is currently designated as green belt should be part of a longer term strategic settlement policy and set out in the development plan. A review of national policy on green belts is currently underway. The natural and historic environment also has to be protected. However, if the national vision is to be realised, planning policies will have to enable development in some areas which, hitherto, have not been considered suitable for development. More opportunities, appropriate in scale, kind and location, should be identified by planning authorities. In the more heavily populated areas there is potential to accommodate some small-scale housing development and businesses may be able to diversify further into new activities. Designing Places sets out the Executive's policy on design and quality in new development. Its aim is to improve the quality of new developments irrespective of size, both within settlements and elsewhere in the countryside. Additional advice is included in PAN 72 5 .

    11. In the less populated areas there should be greater scope for more innovative planning policies. Scottish Ministers see considerable potential for encouraging diversification, distinctiveness and individuality e.g. promoting new ways of working from home, using renewable energy technologies, delivering tourism and recreation projects and developing activities such as aquaculture, equestrianism and many others. Small towns should be self sufficient and able to maintain their function in the local economy. They have a key role in providing services to the wider catchment population. Agriculture and forestry will continue to be important defining elements of rural life. Prime quality agricultural land should continue to be protected and should not be eroded in a piecemeal way but only used to meet strategic development objectives e.g. as part of a long term settlement strategy set out in the development plan. In crofting areas there is a need to make more land available in appropriate locations for a range of developments.
    Last edited by Golden Fleece; 21-04-2017 at 09:18 AM.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  4. #1863
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Absobloodylutely not!!

    Sparsely populated, yes, for good reason. the landscape!! what do you envisage? 120,000 homes built on the side of Ben Nevis, 240,000 homes on Ardnamurchan peninsula? Infrastructure??? Your not being realistic, expansion where infrastructure already exists is a far more reasonable proposition rather building a 'new town'


    http://www.gov.scot/Publications/2005/02/20624/51512
    There's loads pf space for development just North of P'lochry. They could even turn the Moulin into a McDonalds - great spot for it!

  5. #1864
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    By building new cities? Who is going to populate them? We alrwady have open borders and a growing population.

    Where would they go? What would be their purpose, and how would they make Scotland more 'cosmopolitan and diverse'?
    Scotland's landscape is massively underpopulated with huge potential to build new cities and towns across the country whereby eradicating homelessness and welcoming folk from across the globe to come and live in our country. Also building these new cities and towns would drive down house prices allowing younger folk much more opportunity to get onto the property market.

    Surely you can see the benefits of expansion in what is a vastly underpopulated country?

    glory glory

  6. #1865
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    There's loads pf space for development just North of P'lochry. They could even turn the Moulin into a McDonalds - great spot for it!
    Not in my back yard!!!!
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  7. #1866
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    Scotland's landscape is massively underpopulated with huge potential to build new cities and towns across the country whereby eradicating homelessness and welcoming folk from across the globe to come and live in our country. Also building these new cities and towns would drive down house prices allowing younger folk much more opportunity to get onto the property market.

    Surely you can see the benefits of expansion in what is a vastly underpopulated country?

    glory glory
    Expansion of existing settlements, yes. dumping 500,000 people in the middle of Rannoch Moor (or Moulin Moor ), not a chance!!
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  8. #1867
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    Scotland's landscape is massively underpopulated with huge potential to build new cities and towns across the country whereby eradicating homelessness and welcoming folk from across the globe to come and live in our country. Also building these new cities and towns would drive down house prices allowing younger folk much more opportunity to get onto the property market.

    Surely you can see the benefits of expansion in what is a vastly underpopulated country?

    glory glory
    Expansion of existing places, yes.

    I just dont see why we would need to build any new places?

  9. #1868
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Expansion of existing places, yes.

    I just dont see why we would need to build any new places?
    WAYHAY. We are agreed on this
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  10. #1869
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Local elections.

    Dunfermline Labour candidate investigated for disgusting Facebook posts.

    https://t.co/4IhgQyjuLL

    I see the SNP leader in Edinburgh is in trouble after 'forgetting' to declare that he owned a hotel.

  11. #1870
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    WAYHAY. We are agreed on this
    The number of subjects we have got through lately, it was bound to happen eventually!

  12. #1871
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Expansion of existing places, yes.

    I just dont see why we would need to build any new places?
    Why concentrate solely on existing settlements would be my answer when there is so much scope in Scotland to build new cities and towns with innovative architecture and a move away from Glasgow and Edinburgh domination. There's many benefits to massive expansion bringing new opportunities and additional benefits such as job creation, eradicating homelessness and driving down house prices etc.

    It does require vision and drive but its certainly doable in what is a vastly underpopulated landscape.

    I've just about made all the points I can make on this topic now but I'm sure most folk might agree there is certainly scope and benefits for most in undertaking huge expansion of Scotland.

    glory glory

  13. #1872
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I see the SNP leader in Edinburgh is in trouble after 'forgetting' to declare that he owned a hotel.
    I'd this likely to reach the media?
    Space to let

  14. #1873
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    So according to the highly respected Fraser of Allander Institute, one in four scottish jobs is dependant upon trade with the rest of the UK.

    A union dividend?
    Not really. Buyers in rUK will presumably still need whatever it is these jobs are producing and as Simar helpfully explained recently, the buccaneering Brexiteers aim to unilaterally drop tariffs on imports whatever we did on our side. So all good.

    What might be interesting is the refugee dividend if we can provide a safe haven for business exiting Brexitland.

    https://twitter.com/D_Blanchflower/s...79594158243848

  15. #1874
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I know you dont agree with the tories, but millions do.

    Amd they have also cut taxes for everyone else too.

    Fwiw your point on low wage economy is i thknk valid.

    I know you wont like this, but we have to wait and see what a PM May does with a strong mandate. She may well address issues like that (althoufh she may not!)


    I do believe that she is a one nation tory at heart, and has felt constrained by her small majority and so has had to damce to the 1922 Commmittee's tune.

    But i,think, and hope that her political ambition and calculation will see her try amd cement herself firmly on the centre ground, where she could potentially stay for a long time.

    I do think she is different to cameron et al, i dont beliebe she has an eye on board apppintments in the city after her premiership, i think a career in politics will make her want to secure a genuine legacy. Its one of the reasons i like PMs to be older.

    Of course this may be wishful thinking, but as she is our only feasible option for PM, its wishful thinking we will all have to indulge in i think.

    Genuine lolz.

  16. #1875
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    Why concentrate solely on existing settlements would be my answer when there is so much scope in Scotland to build new cities and towns with innovative architecture and a move away from Glasgow and Edinburgh domination. There's many benefits to massive expansion bringing new opportunities and additional benefits such as job creation, eradicating homelessness and driving down house prices etc.

    It does require vision and drive but its certainly doable in what is a vastly underpopulated landscape.

    I've just about made all the points I can make on this topic now but I'm sure most folk might agree there is certainly scope and benefits for most in undertaking huge expansion of Scotland.

    glory glory
    Did you bother to read my post where I included a link to the SPP? Would you like to explain how it is even possible to build in an 'underpopulated landscape'. There's a reason that vast expanses of undeveloped land are just that.

    This map shows areas where 'manmade' structures are absent from the landscape, and will remain so.

    http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A1323225.pdf

    There is a presumption against developing 'ancient woodland' and areas of peatland (upland moors)

    There is a preference to develop 'brownfield' land (former industrial or cleared sites)

    You are pissing in the wind if you think your dream 'city in the wilds' will ever happen, and you have come up with nothing to support it.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  17. #1876
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    I'd this likely to reach the media?
    Only if you count the Scotsman as the media...

  18. #1877
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Not really. Buyers in rUK will presumably still need whatever it is these jobs are producing and as Simar helpfully explained recently, the buccaneering Brexiteers aim to unilaterally drop tariffs on imports whatever we did on our side. So all good.

    What might be interesting is the refugee dividend if we can provide a safe haven for business exiting Brexitland.

    https://twitter.com/D_Blanchflower/s...79594158243848

    So Brexit wont be bad for the economy either then?

  19. #1878
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I see the SNP leader in Edinburgh is in trouble after 'forgetting' to declare that he owned a hotel.
    Got a link mate. I've always hated that *******. 😃

  20. #1879
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Did you bother to read my post where I included a link to the SPP? Would you like to explain how it is even possible to build in an 'underpopulated landscape'. There's a reason that vast expanses of undeveloped land are just that.

    This map shows areas where 'manmade' structures are absent from the landscape, and will remain so.

    http://www.snh.gov.uk/docs/A1323225.pdf

    There is a presumption against developing 'ancient woodland' and areas of peatland (upland moors)

    There is a preference to develop 'brownfield' land (former industrial or cleared sites)

    You are pissing in the wind if you think your dream 'city in the wilds' will ever happen, and you have come up with nothing to support it.
    I made plenty of supporting points to suggest huge expansion into this vastly underpopulated country would be beneficial.

    glory glory

  21. #1880
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Only if you count the Scotsman as the media...
    I can't find an article on it in the Scotsman/EEN. Can you provide a link please?
    Space to let

  22. #1881
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    So Brexit wont be bad for the economy either then?
    An interesting leap. Sadly, with no logic to back it up.

    The buccaneering Brexiteers want to drop tariffs unilaterally on imports (huzzah!) Sadly the EU don't seem to be invested with the same adventurous spirit and are likely to impose them on UK exports to the EU. Spoilsports.

  23. #1882
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    An interesting leap. Sadly, with no logic to back it up.

    The buccaneering Brexiteers want to drop tariffs unilaterally on imports (huzzah!) Sadly the EU don't seem to be invested with the same adventurous spirit and are likely to impose them on UK exports to the EU. Spoilsports.

    Im confused. Who, or what is a 'bucaneering brexiteer'?

    And i dont get how the econonic impact of leaving the EU is bad, but the much greater impact of leaving the UK (as demonstrated by fhe FoA) is ok?

  24. #1883
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    I made plenty of supporting points to suggest huge expansion into this vastly underpopulated country would be beneficial.

    glory glory
    Say goodbye to a fair whack of the 9billion tourist industry.

    There is nothing to support building a Brigadoon in the highlands in your posts that wouldn't apply equally, if not more so, in expanding existing towns. Other than the fact it would cost more as there is no existing infrastructure to support your, pie in the sky fairy tale, city.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  25. #1884
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    I can't find an article on it in the Scotsman/EEN. Can you provide a link please?
    My apologies, it was the herald (i was looking at both at the same time)

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15236979.Top_SNP_council_candidate_failed_to_decla re_he_owns_a_hotel/

    So added to McGarry, Thompson, Bill Torrance and his punchy attitude to women, the Highland Councillor who fiddled his expenses (but is now selling his contacts within the SNP as part of a lobbying business with Mrs Angus Robertson, who has herself been involved in a separate lobbying scandal around t in the park), perhaps the SNP shouldnt be quite so sanctimonious.


    As a proportion of candidates, i would guess that is a higher rate of 'bad eggs' than the tories and their electiob expenses problems.

  26. #1885
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Im confused. Who, or what is a 'bucaneering brexiteer'?

    And i dont get how the econonic impact of leaving the EU is bad, but the much greater impact of leaving the UK (as demonstrated by fhe FoA) is ok?
    BBs - Messrs Fox, Johnson, Davis, Hannan, etc now joined by the Iron May-den (huzzah!)

    Once more (please read slowly):

    - the BBs' preferred model is to impose zero import tariffs on goods and services coming in to the UK irrespective of where from. An iScotland could therefore export to rUK at zero cost*.
    - the EU otoh, does want to impose tariffs, unless the 4 freedoms are respected. An rUK would therefore export to the EU at additional cost.


    * ok, admittedly I've missed out regulation, customs admin etc but you get the general point.

    Anyway, as I've said before, the woefully simplistic analysis that says (in a robotic tone) the "UK market is 4 times greater than the EU market" and just expects that to be the end of the matter treats people like idiots. I imagine that there will be a drag on both UK exports to the EU and on iScot exports to the rUK. However, I also think there could be a considerable boost in iScot business with the EU if we get on with it tout de suite and take up at least some of the UK's currently advantageous position as the English speaking bridge to the EU single market.

    What if we got a refugee dividend of a 20% increase in business with the EU and a drag of only 2% on business with rUK. Quids in right?

  27. #1886
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Say goodbye to a fair whack of the 9billion tourist industry.

    There is nothing to support building a Brigadoon in the highlands in your posts that wouldn't apply equally, if not more so, in expanding existing towns. Other than the fact it would cost more as there is no existing infrastructure to support your, pie in the sky fairy tale, city.
    Brigadoon only comes out every 100 years, though.

    A bit like a few keepers we've had.

  28. #1887
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    BBs - Messrs Fox, Johnson, Davis, Hannan, etc now joined by the Iron May-den (huzzah!)

    Once more (please read slowly):

    - the BBs' preferred model is to impose zero import tariffs on goods and services coming in to the UK irrespective of where from. An iScotland could therefore export to rUK at zero cost*.
    - the EU otoh, does want to impose tariffs, unless the 4 freedoms are respected. An rUK would therefore export to the EU at additional cost.


    * ok, admittedly I've missed out regulation, customs admin etc but you get the general point.

    Anyway, as I've said before, the woefully simplistic analysis that says (in a robotic tone) the "UK market is 4 times greater than the EU market" and just expects that to be the end of the matter treats people like idiots. I imagine that there will be a drag on both UK exports to the EU and on iScot exports to the rUK. However, I also think there could be a considerable boost in iScot business with the EU if we get on with it tout de suite and take up at least some of the UK's currently advantageous position as the English speaking bridge to the EU single market.

    What if we got a refugee dividend of a 20% increase in business with the EU and a drag of only 2% on business with rUK. Quids in right?

    So you are saying you agree with them?

    I also think you are deliberately conflating a negotiating position with what the actual situation will be. And you would presumably argue that those people are wrong? So they would also be wrong in an indy Scotland scenario?

    Yes, in your rather fanciful scenario, we would be quids in. But in the converse, would you accept that thousands would lose their jobs?

    Also im not sure that the FoA can be dismissed as woefully simplistic analysis.

  29. #1888
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    So you are saying you agree with them?

    I also think you are deliberately conflating a negotiating position with what the actual situation will be. And you would presumably argue that those people are wrong? So they would also be wrong in an indy Scotland scenario?

    Yes, in your rather fanciful scenario, we would be quids in. But in the converse, would you accept that thousands would lose their jobs?

    Also im not sure that the FoA can be dismissed as woefully simplistic analysis.
    You've lost me. I don't have to think they're wrong or right, I don't have to agree or disagree. I merely have to believe they'll do what they say they will (ok with May that's a big stretch).

    I didn't dismiss the FoA as afaik they haven't just offered up the "UK market is 4 times greater than the EU market" and that's that as their analysis. I was referring to the Unionist parties and their media supporters.

    I accept there is a risk to jobs and services with independence* but I believe also a considerable upside if we don't hang about dithering for too long. And long term I believe the potential of a small independent EU country with a government focused entirely on its performance versus staying as a largely ignored regional backwater of Brexitland is a no-brainer.

    * whether greater than the risk of staying in Brexitland is debatable and I'd like to see serious analysis of that.

  30. #1889
    @hibs.net private member Jack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    My apologies, it was the herald (i was looking at both at the same time)

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/15236979.Top_SNP_council_candidate_failed_to_decla re_he_owns_a_hotel/

    So added to McGarry, Thompson, Bill Torrance and his punchy attitude to women, the Highland Councillor who fiddled his expenses (but is now selling his contacts within the SNP as part of a lobbying business with Mrs Angus Robertson, who has herself been involved in a separate lobbying scandal around t in the park), perhaps the SNP shouldnt be quite so sanctimonious.


    As a proportion of candidates, i would guess that is a higher rate of 'bad eggs' than the tories and their electiob expenses problems.
    Aye, it's not too clever but to say its on the same level as the Torys record breaking fine and something like 30 MPs about to have their doors knocked on by Inspector Knacker of the Yard it's perhaps pushing it a bit to suggest there's proportionately more rotten in the SNP.

    There's also a long history of MPs from all parties bothering the courts upto and including spending time at Her Majestys pleasure. Not an accusation that can be made of the SNP yet, although as they have only recently become a significant party at Westminster I dare say there's time yet.
    Space to let

  31. #1890
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    You've lost me. I don't have to think they're wrong or right, I don't have to agree or disagree. I merely have to believe they'll do what they say they will (ok with May that's a big stretch).

    I didn't dismiss the FoA as afaik they haven't just offered up the "UK market is 4 times greater than the EU market" and that's that as their analysis. I was referring to the Unionist parties and their media supporters.

    I accept there is a risk to jobs and services with independence* but I believe also a considerable upside if we don't hang about dithering for too long. And long term I believe the potential of a small independent EU country with a government focused entirely on its performance versus staying as a largely ignored regional backwater of Brexitland is a no-brainer.

    * whether greater than the risk of staying in Brexitland is debatable and I'd like to see serious analysis of that.
    Fair enough, no need to rehearse old arguments.

    The reason i asked if you agreed with them is that they called for tarriff free access, they might not get it because the EU doesnt want it (without 4 freedoms etc). Its a negotiating position.

    And presumably you think they are wrong because the EU wont accede to their plans. Ergo, an indy Scotland in the EU would have the same trade barriers with england post indy as the uk will habe with the EU post brexit.

    An indy Scotland outwith the EU will still habe to negotiate from a positiob of relative weakness with thd UK, where they would take on fhe role of punative card holder, as the EU is doing to us at the moment.

    Therefore i dont see how brexit can be am economic disaster while indepedence is some sunlit upland of opportunity. (I appreciate you dont say that, and you have accepted there is a degree of risk with indy)

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