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Thread: Indy Ref 2

  1. #1801
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    You said you'd received literature from labour and the lib dems with indyref2 stuff on it. I've shown evidence of Tories independence rants, all on local election leaflets, however all you seem to say, that it's the SNP raising these issues, when clearly the opposite is true. Maybe you should reset your fake news settings. 😂
    The point I was trying to make (clearly not very successfully) was that there's no real surprise the other parties are raising the independence question at local level in retaliation to the SNP's relentless focus on the issue above all else. It's easy enough for the SNP to make a big play of laying down the indyref2 cudgels at local level when they know they have the 'yes' vote in the bag and can simply start banging the drum again once the council elections are done and dusted. Personally I think most non-SNP voters will be happy enough to see anti-independence references in the unionist literature.

    Yes, you're right. I received Lib Dem and Labour literature referencing the independence issue and criticising the SNP obsession with it, but aside from the fact it's probably out in the paper recycling bin I won't be going to the bother of taking pictures of it! You'll just have to take my word for it (We reside in Scotland's last Labour bastion of Edinburgh South by the way, if that helps your enquiries ). As I think I mentioned, we also received a lengthy letter around the same time from Kezia Dugdale affirming Labour's determination to stand up against another independence referendum. Not sure if that was delivered to all constituents or whether we're on a Labour distribution list.

    Yet to see any flyers etc from the SNP, Tories or Greens.


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  3. #1802
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    He is looking for the literature from any of the independence supporting parties where they refer to a second referendum in their Council election literature. it exists of course.
    No, that's not he asked for, he asked about literature from Labour and the Lib Dems.

  4. #1803
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The scared quote was from the conclusion of the Scottish Referendum Study. Either my recollection of the indyref is mental or the No side spent 99% of the time playing up the economic risk. So the analysis is justified. They did that because focus groups showed it resonated with the swing voters they needed. Clearly this only applies to a segment of No voters but there's nothing patronising about it. Why shouldn't they be scared? There is nothing wrong with being concerned you might lose your job or see a public service your family depends on disappear. It's up to the Yes side to show that there's no reason to be any more afraid in our own country than being a region run from London and that that country can be a better, happier, more open place than it is now.
    Fair enough. As you say though, being 'scared' to vote yes only applied to a segment of no voters. It just didn't happen to have any bearing on the way I voted.

  5. #1804
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    The figures show a net increase of around 15,000 a year over the last year, not huge by any measure, and I think it said around half come from elsewhere in the uk. Immigration from outside the UK was also roughly 50/50 EU and elsewhere.
    The question still stands though?

  6. #1805
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    The point I was trying to make (clearly not very successfully) was that there's no real surprise the other parties are raising the independence question at local level in retaliation to the SNP's relentless focus on the issue above all else. It's easy enough for the SNP to make a big play of laying down the indyref2 cudgels at local level when they know they have the 'yes' vote in the bag and can simply start banging the drum again once the council elections are done and dusted. Personally I think most non-SNP voters will be happy enough to see anti-independence references in the unionist literature.

    Yes, you're right. I received Lib Dem and Labour literature referencing the independence issue and criticising the SNP obsession with it, but aside from the fact it's probably out in the paper recycling bin I won't be going to the bother of taking pictures of it! You'll just have to take my word for it (We reside in Scotland's last Labour bastion of Edinburgh South by the way, if that helps your enquiries ). As I think I mentioned, we also received a lengthy letter around the same time from Kezia Dugdale affirming Labour's determination to stand up against another independence referendum. Not sure if that was delivered to all constituents or whether we're on a Labour distribution list.

    Yet to see any flyers etc from the SNP, Tories or Greens.
    Absolutely not IMO. I don't pay my councillors to debate the independence question. Any candidates that say they will get involved with non-Council matters (and they're avoiding me, I reckon. I've had this debate with them many times over the years ) get an instant fail from me.
    Last edited by CropleyWasGod; 20-04-2017 at 11:51 AM.

  7. #1806
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Absolutely not IMO. I don't pay my councillors to debate the independence question. Any candidates that say they will get involved with non-Council matters (and they're avoiding me, I reckon. I've had this debate with them many times over the years ) get an instant fail from me.
    The same point could be made about the Scottish Parliament.

  8. #1807
    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    i keep seeing this line from the nationalists about being more open , what exactly do you mean by that . more open to what ?

    and how would independence make people happier ?
    I'd love to hear smug Angus Robertson's response to that!

  9. #1808
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    The question still stands though?
    I can't speak for the SNP, but as far as I'm concerned the country (Scotland, if not the whole of the UK) needs a workforce wherever they come from.

    A lot of the work carried out by eastern Europeans would not be done by British workers as they see it as below them. Skilled labour from outside the UK is required to fill skills gaps in lots of places, the NHS, manufacturing, design, Computers. The list is almost endless.

    As our resident population ages, they need to be replaced by someone, and the population isn't increasing fast enough, maybe because people don't want to have a third child (under the Tories benefit policies). So, in essence, from my point of view, immigration needs to increase in Scotland.

    Hope that helps, but not an SNP view.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  10. #1809
    @hibs.net private member CapitalGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Yeah thats fair enough, and the rate may fall, but scorlands population is rising again i believe.

    I just asked the question, is that what the SNP mean, and i wonder how people would react to a proposal to double current levels of immigration?
    I hope our politicians will be able to make the changes necessary to improving the future of our country - in this case increasing immigration to mitigate the issues caused by an ageing-population.

    How would you react?

  11. #1810
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    The same point could be made about the Scottish Parliament.
    Yup, agreed, and I have had that debate with prospective MSP's too.

    And the one about the NHS and education with prospective MP's

  12. #1811
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Ive been wondering that too.

    I take at as more open to immigration.

    I wonder what Scotland's rate of immigration is compared to england as a percentage of population?
    I can't speak for anyone else but I mean several things:

    - more welcoming, yes more immigration, our economy needs immigrants I understand that there is a section of the population uneasy about that, but imo the case needs to be made for it. Strongly. Also more receptive to refugees, happier to do our bit in the world. The friendly Brexiteers are already talking about cutting foreign aid budgets. Way to go in the making friends across the globe initiative.

    - a more accountable, transparent democracy. No unelected House of Lords or established church Bishops in parliament. A written constitution with proper checks on the executive, no more royal prerogative. A concrete example - the shenanigans that led the UK to the Iraq war should have been impossible. Going to war is not something a PM and their inner circle should be able to cook up. Concrete example 2 - it should be impossible to bring forward something like EVEL in such a half arsed, cavalier way. It has considerable implications but seems to have been a Cameron whim, then waved through on the nod as a procedural change to commons rules.

    Independence gives us a blank slate to do things that the UK will never contemplate - proper land reform, (in time) abolition of the monarchy, introduce a process of citizen democracy such as Switzerland's mechanism for popular referendums. Take the best practices we see from around Europe and the world rather than being stuck in centuries thick mud of imperial tradition, pomp(ous ********s) and circumstance.

    (To be trite) we are only constrained by our imaginations. (vomit)

  13. #1812
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Where have I denied the unionist parties are referencing independence in their council election literature? If you took a little time to read my posts instead of dismissing them as 'waffle' you'll not find any evidence of 'complete denial'.

    I've yet to see any Tory flyers, but as I've stated I fully understand why they've seen fit to include the independence issue. It's hardly some sort of stealth tactic, it's there for all to see (along with a number of of decent local government initiatives):

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-39641145

    Incidentally, in reference to your avatar, was Paul Weller not dogged for many years by a quote he made that The Jam voted Tory?
    You are constantly complaining about the SNP's only focus being Independence when, clearly, it's the pro Union parties that want to talk constitutional politics in, what is supposed to be, a local election about local issues.

    You are correct with regard to Paul Weller. Tongue in cheek comment from a very young Weller that music press took quite literally.

  14. #1813
    @hibs.net private member allmodcons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Absolutely not IMO. I don't pay my councillors to debate the independence question. Any candidates that say they will get involved with non-Council matters (and they're avoiding me, I reckon. I've had this debate with them many times over the years ) get an instant fail from me.

  15. #1814
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Yup, agreed, and I have had that debate with prospective MSP's too.

    And the one about the NHS and education with prospective MP's
    Very valid. What Scottish MPs do is, IMO one of the ragged edges of devolution that has never beem tidied up.

  16. #1815
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    I can't speak for the SNP, but as far as I'm concerned the country (Scotland, if not the whole of the UK) needs a workforce wherever they come from.

    A lot of the work carried out by eastern Europeans would not be done by British workers as they see it as below them. Skilled labour from outside the UK is required to fill skills gaps in lots of places, the NHS, manufacturing, design, Computers. The list is almost endless.

    As our resident population ages, they need to be replaced by someone, and the population isn't increasing fast enough, maybe because people don't want to have a third child (under the Tories benefit policies). So, in essence, from my point of view, immigration needs to increase in Scotland.

    Hope that helps, but not an SNP view.
    All fair enough points mate, amd i appreciate that you dont speak for the SNP!

  17. #1816
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    I can't speak for anyone else but I mean several things:

    - more welcoming, yes more immigration, our economy needs immigrants I understand that there is a section of the population uneasy about that, but imo the case needs to be made for it. Strongly. Also more receptive to refugees, happier to do our bit in the world. The friendly Brexiteers are already talking about cutting foreign aid budgets. Way to go in the making friends across the globe initiative.

    - a more accountable, transparent democracy. No unelected House of Lords or established church Bishops in parliament. A written constitution with proper checks on the executive, no more royal prerogative. A concrete example - the shenanigans that led the UK to the Iraq war should have been impossible. Going to war is not something a PM and their inner circle should be able to cook up. Concrete example 2 - it should be impossible to bring forward something like EVEL in such a half arsed, cavalier way. It has considerable implications but seems to have been a Cameron whim, then waved through on the nod as a procedural change to commons rules.

    Independence gives us a blank slate to do things that the UK will never contemplate - proper land reform, (in time) abolition of the monarchy, introduce a process of citizen democracy such as Switzerland's mechanism for popular referendums. Take the best practices we see from around Europe and the world rather than being stuck in centuries thick mud of imperial tradition, pomp(ous ********s) and circumstance.

    (To be trite) we are only constrained by our imaginations. (vomit)
    Id be wary of citizen referenda...!

    I just find it interesting, amd a little disengenuous of people to suggest that the UK is hostile to immigrants, particuarly here in scotland where immigration rates are low, and where we still habe a society divided by the last mass immihration that took place over a hundred years ago.

    I suppose i wonder whether the SNP will have the courage to lead the debate on that area, and state that they want to seriously increase migration.

    My own view, fwiw, is similar to yours amd golden fleece's, we need migrants and they are responsible for reversing long term populatiob decline.

    But i do think there are problems with migration that need to be managed, and i do have some concerns about freedom of labour in the EU as it seems to me, admittedly far from well versed in economics compared to many on this board, a fairly obvious downward pressure on wages and increased competition for labour.

  18. #1817
    @hibs.net private member CapitalGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Id be wary of citizen referenda...!

    I just find it interesting, amd a little disengenuous of people to suggest that the UK is hostile to immigrants, particuarly here in scotland where immigration rates are low, and where we still habe a society divided by the last mass immihration that took place over a hundred years ago.

    I suppose i wonder whether the SNP will have the courage to lead the debate on that area, and state that they want to seriously increase migration.

    My own view, fwiw, is similar to yours amd golden fleece's, we need migrants and they are responsible for reversing long term populatiob decline.

    But i do think there are problems with migration that need to be managed, and i do have some concerns about freedom of labour in the EU as it seems to me, admittedly far from well versed in economics compared to many on this board, a fairly obvious downward pressure on wages and increased competition for labour.
    Any chance you can start proof-reading your posts as this is getting silly now. I know you like to fire off fifty posts a minute but it's difficult to take them seriously when they are littered with typos.

  19. #1818
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapitalGreen View Post
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    Any chance you can start proof-reading your posts as this is getting silly now. I know you like to fire off fifty posts a minute but it's difficult to take them seriously when they are littered with typos.
    So don't.

  20. #1819
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Thanks!

    Found this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25910947

    Its a wee bit out of date (2014) but says Scotland's rate is 7% versus a 14% rate for the UK.

    So, are the SNP suggesting that we will more than double immigration into Scotland, so that it becomes more open than the rest of the UK
    ?
    I can't say for certain, not being affiliated to the Scottish National Party, but I don't think anyone has suggested that an independent Scotland would become more open to immigration than the United Kingdom. It would be difficult to attract 100% more people to come here. I think that increasing that figure to 7.1% would mean that we were "more open". If we went as far as 8% that would make us even "more open". But you bash on and ask questions to which I suspect you really already know the answer. Play dumb enough and we'll believe you are.

  21. #1820
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geo_1875 View Post
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    I can't say for certain, not being affiliated to the Scottish National Party, but I don't think anyone has suggested that an independent Scotland would become more open to immigration than the United Kingdom. It would be difficult to attract 100% more people to come here. I think that increasing that figure to 7.1% would mean that we were "more open". If we went as far as 8% that would make us even "more open". But you bash on and ask questions to which I suspect you really already know the answer. Play dumb enough and we'll believe you are.
    But less open to immigration than the rest of the UK, is that what you are saying?

  22. #1821
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    But less open to immigration than the rest of the UK, is that what you are saying?
    About 7% of Scots were born outside the UK, whereas the figure for the rest of the UK is almost 14%.
    But if you include immigrants from rUK, I think it's nearer 20% of Scots were born outside Scotland. And despite what you read in the nat-bashing press, ime most of those people feel they have been welcomed.

  23. #1822
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    But if you include immigrants from rUK, I think it's nearer 20% of Scots were born outside Scotland. And despite what you read in the nat-bashing press, ime most of those people feel they have been welcomed.

    And the 14% non native English includes the thousands of Scots that never made it back from various trips to Wembley
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  24. #1823
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    And the 14% non native English includes the thousands of Scots that never made it back from various trips to Wembley

    Nostalgia.



    glory glory

  25. #1824
    @hibs.net private member CapitalGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    But less open to immigration than the rest of the UK, is that what you are saying?
    At present all immigration is controlled at a UK level so the rate of immigration into Scotland is currently determined by how many of those who move to the UK are choosing to settle in Scotland.

    A country can't force people to come here but what it can do is pursue an approach to immigration which is positive, welcoming and encourages people to come and work.

    If an independent Scottish government was to take such an approach while the rUK government strives to reduce immigration could it not be argued that one was more open to immigration than the other despite there being a difference in current immigration rates?

  26. #1825
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapitalGreen View Post
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    At present all immigration is controlled at a UK level so the rate of immigration into Scotland is currently determined by how many of those who move to the UK are choosing to settle in Scotland.

    A country can't force people to come here but what it can do is pursue an approach to immigration which is positive, welcoming and encourages people to come and work.

    If an independent Scottish government was to take such an approach while the rUK government strives to reduce immigration could it not be argued that one was more open to immigration than the other despite there being a difference in current immigration rates?
    IIRC, Jack McConnell (or maybe McLeish) lobbied the Blair government for exemptions for Scotland from the immigration caps. Knocked back, of course, but it did highlight the imbalance at the time.

    Immigration tends to be concentrated around already-established centres of population, which is why we have that imbalance in the UK, with the consequent pressure on public services. An imaginative alternative way of dealing with the numbers might have, in hindsight, been a better way, eg "you can come to the UK, but you have to live in......".

    Post-indy, with a virtual blank canvas, it's that type of lateral thinking that might serve the economy better.

  27. #1826
    "But but.... the GERS figures say...."

    The GERS figures exposed for what they are.

  28. #1827
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CapitalGreen View Post
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    Any chance you can start proof-reading your posts as this is getting silly now. I know you like to fire off fifty posts a minute but it's difficult to take them seriously when they are littered with typos.
    He's got a Samsung.... The latest update has been a nightmare for the keyboard autocorrect feature.

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  29. #1828
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    This is the kind of stuff which makes my blood boil. A family who've bought into life in Scotland, being removed by the Home office lackies. This after the Brains went through their own personal trauma of being deported.

    These type of families are what we in Scotland need to increase our population, but we're not being served well by the Westminster Tory Government.

    https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp...r-deportation/

    I've only just come across this, so I'm not sure what the up to date picture is.

    Hopefully someone will see sense.

  30. #1829
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Is Ruth Davidson's response to the rape clause not a perfect advert for independence?

    Essentially she's admitting that Scotland is powerless at a UK level in this case and that the devolved government needs to mitigate the problem locally if it doesn't agree with it.

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  31. #1830
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    Is Ruth Davidson's response to the rape clause not a perfect advert for independence?

    Essentially she's admitting that Scotland is powerless at a UK level in this case and that the devolved government needs to mitigate the problem locally if it doesn't agree with it.

    Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
    Edited 3,times to correct stuff!!!

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