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Thread: Indy Ref 2

  1. #1591
    Testimonial Due pacoluna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    The flip side of that is that all but four of the 32 Scottish voting regions voted against independence in 2014. In those circumstances the voting system works well for the pro-union parties when their combined voters were enough to defeat the SNP in almost every region. However, it works against them when it comes to an election when the SNP can rely on the default support of yes voters, whereas the rest of the vote is split across the other parties, thus diluting the chances of anything but an SNP win. Hence the somewhat inflated SNP representation at Westminster.
    Yet SNP have more seats than Labour, Tories and libdems put together.


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  3. #1592
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Ok Flash
    No worries Ace and no answers. I work 12 hours for theNHS so have no time for this utterly tiresome echo chamber. How is the Edinburgh East branch getting on with their "deselecting" for the forthcoming election. A long wait for PIP to be abolished in Scotland. One would assume you stood with us outside High Riggs: http://edinburghagainstpoverty.org.uk/node/230

  4. #1593
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    Quote Originally Posted by pacoluna View Post
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    Yet SNP have more seats than Labour, Tories and libdems put together.
    My dad is bigger than yours. How pathetic.

  5. #1594
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavoj Zizek View Post
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    My dad is bigger than yours. How pathetic.
    Is it pathetic to say that the electorate made that choice?

  6. #1595
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    Is it pathetic to say that the electorate made that choice?
    Not when 55% voted No. It is called "Civic Nationalism" #MyDadHasLessSeats

  7. #1596
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavoj Zizek View Post
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    Not when 55% voted No. It is called "Civic Nationalism" #MyDadHasLessSeats
    He didn't mention the referendum. This is what he said....

    Yet SNP have more seats than Labour, Tories and libdems put together.

  8. #1597
    Quote Originally Posted by Slavoj Zizek View Post
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    Not when 55% voted No. It is called "Civic Nationalism" #MyDadHasLessSeats
    Got to say, I liked this better:

    Globalisation means that Scotland wants independence or at least more autonomy; you Basques, as well... That in itself is a good phenomenon. These new entities that want to separate they donʼt want only to obtain a nation-state old-style but a new autonomous entity, with much more free space also at the cultural level. Globalisation doesnʼt mean that we are all going to end up eating hamburgers, it means that it will be easier for you, for instance, to express your identity in the world. Thatʼs the good side of globalization. So we should use that possibility (he knocks the table lightly with his forefinger). We should not be conservative or afraid about it

  9. #1598
    Sorry, still quoting, I really like this guy.

    fact I think that the stronger the European Union the bigger your room for autonomy will be. To the extent that Europe is more united it will become more of a Europe of regions and not so much of nation-states. It is a very nice paradox: to the extent that you demand total autonomy from the Spanish state your defense constitutes the highest universal space. You shouldnʼt be afraid of Europe. Be careful with those false leftists followers of Habermas: they say that the European Union is a tool of the International Monetary Fund, of international capital ant all that, as a consequence, it is the task of the Left to return to a strong nation-state; they think that only strong nation-states can save what is left of the welfare
    It is a false idea of the universalist Left that we should forget about our identity because no one lives in an abstract space. The dialectic here is very clear: since you have a hierarchical space of a universal Europe and underneath you have the nation-states, those who undermine the sovereignty of nation-states from inside are allied to universality. In fact, you are more universal to the extent that you act against the Spanish nation-state. This is what your argument should be. The force of universality is in you, not in the Spanish state. And I think that this is necessary for the European Union. And I still have hope in Europe because if not there are only two models: the Anglo-Saxon liberal model and the authoritarian capitalism of China, Japan and so

  10. #1599
    Quote Originally Posted by pacoluna View Post
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    Yet SNP have more seats than Labour, Tories and libdems put together.
    Yes and I tried to point out why (to a large extent) that has happened, but maybe didn't make myself very clear. Basically, when it came down to a straight choice between independence and staying part of the UK, the majority of voters across all but four regions opted to stay part of the UK. But when it comes to electing parliamentary candidates, the 45% who voted for independence by and large voted for the SNP candidate in their constituency, thereby giving those candidates a telling advantage because Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem voters are no longer united.

    Bottom line, the SNP may have the mandate to govern (I'm not trying to argue otherwise) but their majority presence at both Westminster and Holyrood doesn't tell the whole story.

  11. #1600
    He seems to have Scottish Labour's Brexit position nailed too!

    . But I say it again, the problem with cynicism is that it is an impossible position. If pure cynicism was possible, then yes, I agree, weʼd have a problem because the critique of ideology would not function anymore. Whatever youʼd said to him the complete cynic would answer: “Ok, **** it! I accept it and I carry on.

  12. #1601
    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Yes and I tried to point out why (to a large extent) that has happened, but maybe didn't make myself very clear. Basically, when it came down to a straight choice between independence and staying part of the UK, the majority of voters across all but four regions opted to stay part of the UK. But when it comes to electing parliamentary candidates, the 45% who voted for independence by and large voted for the SNP candidate in their constituency, thereby giving those candidates a telling advantage because Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem voters are no longer united.

    Bottom line, the SNP may have the mandate to govern (I'm not trying to argue otherwise) but their majority presence at both Westminster and Holyrood doesn't tell the whole story.
    The effect of the solid SNP block on Westminster fptp seats is much as you say but Holyrood tells a more interesting story. SNP+Green+minor Indy parties total just over 50% of the vote, Lib/Lab/Tory just under. Of course some votes leak tactically in either direction but to me the narrative is of a country on the edge of asserting its independence. Nobody diametrically opposed to iScotland would even toy with a pro indy party. There is now a solid pro Indy block and a large enough persuadable bunch of waverers. It's going to be closer than last time I reckon and you just never know, Hibs did win that damned cup.

  13. #1602
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Yes and I tried to point out why (to a large extent) that has happened, but maybe didn't make myself very clear. Basically, when it came down to a straight choice between independence and staying part of the UK, the majority of voters across all but four regions opted to stay part of the UK. But when it comes to electing parliamentary candidates, the 45% who voted for independence by and large voted for the SNP candidate in their constituency, thereby giving those candidates a telling advantage because Labour, Conservative and Lib Dem voters are no longer united.

    Bottom line, the SNP may have the mandate to govern (I'm not trying to argue otherwise) but their majority presence at both Westminster and Holyrood doesn't tell the whole story.
    I'd posit () that the Holyrood seats are a reasonably accurate reflection of the electorate's choices.

    Westminster isn't, of course. Does anyone know what the allocation of Scottish seats would be if they used the Holyrood PR system?

  14. #1603
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slavoj Zizek View Post
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    No worries Ace and no answers. I work 12 hours for theNHS so have no time for this utterly tiresome echo chamber. How is the Edinburgh East branch getting on with their "deselecting" for the forthcoming election. A long wait for PIP to be abolished in Scotland. One would assume you stood with us outside High Riggs: http://edinburghagainstpoverty.org.uk/node/230
    The two branches you've tried, and missed on both occasions. This echo chamber is getting a rise out of you though.

    That's the only rise, Labour will be getting

    Sounds like you've forgotten that your party were the least supportive of welfare powers, and more, being devolved to Holyrood. #soldoutsmith
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 11-04-2017 at 08:18 AM.

  15. #1604
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    I'd posit () that the Holyrood seats are a reasonably accurate reflection of the electorate's choices.

    Westminster isn't, of course. Does anyone know what the allocation of Scottish seats would be if they used the Holyrood PR system?
    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I recall reading that under proportional representation we'd have more than 80 UKIP MPs and barely 30 SNP MPs. Not sure if that's based on the same PR as the Holyrood system though.

  16. #1605
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    As I mentioned in an earlier post, I recall reading that under proportional representation we'd have more than 80 UKIP MPs and barely 30 SNP MPs. Not sure if that's based on the same PR as the Holyrood system though.
    I meant for Scotland, if that's possible.

  17. #1606
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    I meant for Scotland, if that's possible.
    Sure I read that the SNP would have 32 seats or something along those lines..not sure the article gave numbers for who would have got the rest.

  18. #1607
    @hibs.net private member HiBremian's Avatar
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    I see these nice Scottish Conservatives are ignoring the SNP's obsession with independence, and fighting the council elections on the local issues that really matter to people.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-c...esto-launched/


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  19. #1608
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    I see these nice Scottish Conservatives are ignoring the SNP's obsession with independence, and fighting the council elections on the local issues that really matter to people.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-c...esto-launched/


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

    So are you saying it is the Scottish tories' who are keeping indy on the agenda, nothing to do with the scot govt constantly campaigning for it.

    I find this line of argument from nats to be a bit odd. Saying it isnt them keeping it on the agenda.

  20. #1609
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    So are you saying it is the Scottish tories' who are keeping indy on the agenda, nothing to do with the scot govt constantly campaigning for it.

    I find this line of argument from nats to be a bit odd. Saying it isnt them keeping it on the agenda.
    It's a strange one I agree, I also think maybe they would want it include reference to it in their flyers etc (use every tool at your disposal sort of thing) but this seems to be showing Indy as their main driver!
    I want to know about roads, trams (yes/no/maybe) etc etc. For me the independence question doesn't enter my thinking in local elections and I don't think I've even voted SNP in them.

    Caveat... It is a "wings" link so maybe what's shown is the cherry picked worst, maybe not all the non SNP ones are as bad.

    Edit: ps was there not an article somewhere referencing a study that of the Scottish leaders it was Ruth Davidson that actually brought up independence more than the rest?
    Last edited by Just Alf; 11-04-2017 at 07:44 AM.
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  21. #1610
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Leaders ratings in the latest Ashcroft poll show the FM Leading the way again. Ruth Davidson is more popular than the FM...in England.

    https://t.co/G3sVHrWvBI

    https://t.co/G3sVHrWvBI
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 11-04-2017 at 07:58 AM.

  22. #1611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    It's a strange one I agree, I also think maybe they would want it include reference to it in their flyers etc (use every tool at your disposal sort of thing) but this seems to be showing Indy as their main driver!
    I want to know about roads, trams (yes/no/maybe) etc etc. For me the independence question doesn't enter my thinking in local elections and I don't think I've even voted SNP in them.

    Caveat... It is a "wings" link so maybe what's shown is the cherry picked worst, maybe not all the non SNP ones are as bad.

    Edit: ps was there not an article somewhere referencing a study that of the Scottish leaders it was Ruth Davidson that actually brought up independence more than the rest?
    Totally agree mate - indy shouldnt come into it for local elections, unless its about special status for lothian in the future...!

    There was i think, but possibly related to FMQs, so not sure what it actually tells us.

  23. #1612
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    I see these nice Scottish Conservatives are ignoring the SNP's obsession with independence, and fighting the council elections on the local issues that really matter to people.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-c...esto-launched/


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    This is a letter sent by Prof A Tomkins, and Annie Wells, both Tory MSP's to a local Green party candidate looking to be elected to his local council. They seem to want to talk about one thing only. It's all they've got to offer.

    C9Ecz6FW0AArqe9.jpg

  24. #1613
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    So are you saying it is the Scottish tories' who are keeping indy on the agenda, nothing to do with the scot govt constantly campaigning for it.

    I find this line of argument from nats to be a bit odd. Saying it isnt them keeping it on the agenda.
    Obviously the Scot gov has put independence back on the table but it's also true that the Tories want to talk about *nothing* else. They are operating a clear strategy of Unionism-max to try and eat into the remnants of the Lab/Lib vote.

  25. #1614
    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    I see these nice Scottish Conservatives are ignoring the SNP's obsession with independence, and fighting the council elections on the local issues that really matter to people.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-c...esto-launched/


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    I gather that the guy who runs that blog/website is so passionate about Scotland that he lives in the the Tory heartland of Bath.

  26. #1615
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I gather that the guy who runs that blog/website is so passionate about Scotland that he lives in the the Tory heartland of Bath.
    Does that make his output less valid?

  27. #1616
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    I see these nice Scottish Conservatives are ignoring the SNP's obsession with independence, and fighting the council elections on the local issues that really matter to people.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/tory-c...esto-launched/


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    Considering the first manifesto launch is today, by the Scottish Greens, I find it a bit odd this claim the tories have anything out yet.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  28. #1617
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Obviously the Scot gov has put independence back on the table but it's also true that the Tories want to talk about *nothing* else. They are operating a clear strategy of Unionism-max to try and eat into the remnants of the Lab/Lib vote.
    The SNP are in no position to accuse the Tories of political opportunism given the gleeful haste with which they jumped on Brexit to ramp up the rhetoric for a new independence referendum.

    In 2014 it was the settled will of the Scottish Parliament that there be a referendum (as well as a general acceptance among voters in Scotland that this was something that justified a vote). This time round, the only 'settled will' is that of the SNP (propped up by an obsequious handful of Greens) and the deep resentment felt towards them by those who believed the issue was put to bed is, I sense, greater than the SNP realise. The Tories are correct to reflect that anger because if another such vote does ever come to pass, the 'no' side need to be better prepared for battle than they were last time, despite the fact the quiet majority prevailed by a distance.

    It's a pity that the local elections will be dominated not by local issues but by constitutional sniping, but the only party to blame for that is the SNP.

  29. #1618
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    The SNP are in no position to accuse the Tories of political opportunism given the gleeful haste with which they jumped on Brexit to ramp up the rhetoric for a new independence referendum.

    In 2014 it was the settled will of the Scottish Parliament that there be a referendum (as well as a general acceptance among voters in Scotland that this was something that justified a vote). This time round, the only 'settled will' is that of the SNP (propped up by an obsequious handful of Greens) and the deep resentment felt towards them by those who believed the issue was put to bed is, I sense, greater than the SNP realise. The Tories are correct to reflect that anger because if another such vote does ever come to pass, the 'no' side need to be better prepared for battle than they were last time, despite the fact the quiet majority prevailed by a distance.

    It's a pity that the local elections will be dominated not by local issues but by constitutional sniping, but the only party to blame for that is the SNP.

    I don't know how often it needs to be said, but the Scottish Green Party are not propping up the SNP, they have voted against and won votes and amendments against the SNP at Holyrood.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  30. #1619
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    The SNP are in no position to accuse the Tories of political opportunism given the gleeful haste with which they jumped on Brexit to ramp up the rhetoric for a new independence referendum.

    In 2014 it was the settled will of the Scottish Parliament that there be a referendum (as well as a general acceptance among voters in Scotland that this was something that justified a vote). This time round, the only 'settled will' is that of the SNP (propped up by an obsequious handful of Greens) and the deep resentment felt towards them by those who believed the issue was put to bed is, I sense, greater than the SNP realise. The Tories are correct to reflect that anger because if another such vote does ever come to pass, the 'no' side need to be better prepared for battle than they were last time, despite the fact the quiet majority prevailed by a distance.

    It's a pity that the local elections will be dominated not by local issues but by constitutional sniping, but the only party to blame for that is the SNP.
    So we should simply forget the continued EU membership argument used by Better Together prior to the 2014 referendum?

    The Brexit vote and Westminster's treatment of Scotland since (since 2014 for that matter) have left the SNP with no option but to push for Indyref2. I don't understand why you can't see that.

  31. #1620
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    Does that make his output less valid?
    No. It's fine however, if Dan snow and his cohorts get involved.

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