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Thread: Indy Ref 2

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    There's a huge difference between an election and a referendum. My point is, is it healthy to have more than one referendum asking the same question?
    I would have preferred a bigger gap between votes and I suspect Nicola Sturgeon does not see the timing of all this as ideal. But with us heading towards a hard Brexit we at least deserve the chance to make a decision on whether we as a country just go along with that or not. The world we are in now seems a different place from where we were in 2014.
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  3. #92
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SeanWilson View Post
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    Do you not feel in the least bit aggrieved that we're at the mercy of Westminster when it comes to 'brexit', whether for it or against? For me, the brexit vote and the subsequent ignorance/arrogance towards any opinion other than that of the hard line tory, makes this a must for the Scottish people. I'm not sure which way I'll vote in indyref2, however I'm glad I've now got a legitimate option and reasoned arguments (in between the rhetoric) to listen to over the next year or so.
    Personally I think the we, as in the UK, are at the mercy of the Europeans when it comes to Brexit.

    BUT, the UK did vote to leave so the ruling party must grasp that nettle. I was devastated but whilst it's not always fair it's democracy.

  4. #93
    @hibs.net private member CapitalGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    There's a huge difference between an election and a referendum. My point is, is it healthy to have more than one referendum asking the same question?
    I'm not sure if it is healthy but I would say it is unhealthy to ignore the will of those who elected you with a mandate to hold a second independence referendum if there was a material change in the political landscape of Scotland.

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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    our voice is ignored time and again in europe , but still 60% of us voted to remain in that union .
    Scotland doesn't have a voice in Europe, because it doesn't even have a voice at UK level. But regardless of where you stand on the EU, at least an independent Scotland can agree it's own type of relationship with Europe and the rest of the world. Something it will never be able to do as part of the UK. What's good for England isn't necessarily good for us, but we're forever forced to go down their path, regardless of the damage it could do to our own economy and democracy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLadd View Post
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    I see nats are playing the man and not the ball as usual. You have never dealt in facts, only heather brained dreams and castles made of sand / tartan utopias. Look at the raw data of where we do our trade (17% Eu, 68% England), the current deficit of revenue vs expenditure in Scotland (9%, and not including legacy debt that would be added), the oil taxation revenue on current Brent crude price (0%), the 10% unemployment in the Euro zone, and argue on that. Go on and make a case. How long do you think we'd last? How would it be better? Sturgeon will be A okay, not most of you.
    How much of that 68% simply passes through England on it's way to Europe?

  7. #96
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLadd View Post
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    I see nats are playing the man and not the ball as usual. You have never dealt in facts, only heather brained dreams and castles made of sand / tartan utopias. Look at the raw data of where we do our trade (17% Eu, 68% England), the current deficit of revenue vs expenditure in Scotland (9%, and not including legacy debt that would be added), the oil taxation revenue on current Brent crude price (0%), the 10% unemployment in the Euro zone, and argue on that. Go on and make a case. How long do you think we'd last? How would it be better? Sturgeon will be A okay, not most of you.



    Ok, one point, if the LEAVE people are to be believed, the current trade with the EU by the UK will continue as before, "because they need us" so what is to say the same won't be the case for iScotland and the rUK? They need our tartan, haggis, shortbread and heather and would be daft to rebuild Hadrian's Wall just to be petulant .
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  8. #97
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    I see wee Ruth Davidson has gone radge. When you see the Tories in meltdown, you know something good is happening

    Dear XXXXXXX,

    Today Nicola Sturgeon confirmed she intends to call a second referendum on Scottish independence.
    Time is short if we are to stop her, so forgive me if I come straight to the point.
    I need your help.
    We know that the SNP has been building up a huge war-chest to fight another referendum.
    And we also know Nicola Sturgeon will have no hesitation in putting the full power of the Scottish government behind her campaign to break up Britain. That’s the same government we pay for, and which is meant to be hard at work improving our local schools and hospitals.
    So we need to stop this in its tracks now. We need to match her, pound for pound.
    Please make a donation today, and you have my personal guarantee that every penny will be spent on opposing Nicola Sturgeon’s new independence referendum drive.
    Thank you for your support.

    Ruth Davidson
    Leader of the Opposition - Scottish Conservatives
    PS: You can also help by signing our petition against a second independence referendum. Thousands of people have already signed it, so make sure your voice is heard.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  9. #98
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    One of the major considerations which motivated my No vote last time was uncertainty about EU membership. The argument, which was valid, was that only a No vote could guarantee our future EU membership. Well, that argument was taken off the table last June, and the dishonest campaign of the Brexit camp has left a bitter taste. You don't need to be Einstein to have foreseen the potential consequences of a Brexit vote in circumstances where a solid majority of Scots voted remain. I'm angry about the way Brexit was mis-sold; it is further evidence of the different visions of England and Scotland, which seems irreconcilable.
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    our voice is ignored time and again in europe , but still 60% of us voted to remain in that union .
    UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

    Numbers prior to the Brexit vote since 1999.

    Just sayin'.

  11. #100
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Dear XXXXXXX,

    Today Nicola Sturgeon confirmed she intends to call a second referendum on Scottish independence.
    Time is short if we are to stop her, so forgive me if I come straight to the point.
    I need your help.
    We know that the SNP has been building up a huge war-chest to fight another referendum.
    And we also know Nicola Sturgeon will have no hesitation in putting the full power of the Scottish government behind her campaign to break up Britain. That’s the same government we pay for, and which is meant to be hard at work improving our local schools and hospitals.
    So we need to stop this in its tracks now. We need to match her, pound for pound.
    Please make a donation today, and you have my personal guarantee that every penny will be spent on opposing Nicola Sturgeon’s new independence referendum drive.
    Thank you for your support.

    Ruth Davidson
    Leader of the Opposition - Scottish Conservatives
    PS: You can also help by signing our petition against a second independence referendum. Thousands of people have already signed it, so make sure your voice is heard.

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  12. #101
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KWJ View Post
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    UK ministers were on the “winning side” 95% of the time, abstained 3% of the time, and were on the losing side 2%.

    Numbers prior to the Brexit vote since 1999.

    Just sayin'.
    That's a cracking stat. Just wished it was used more last year.

    TBH go or stay in the EU for an iScotland, should be the choice of an iScotland. At the moment that, and every other policy decision is being decided by a Right wing Westminster Government.

    J

  13. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    You've got the bones of an argument and the start of a meaningful debate just about kicking off here (which would be a very good thing) but the style of your posts makes it very hard to want to engage with you on this.

    The truth is sometimes hard to swallow, there's no nice way of putting it. I approach the union from a purely pragmatic and non emotionally invested view: we benefit from it immensely and would suffer real and lasting economic hardship if we broke away, something the good people of Renfrewshire South are blissfully unaware.

  14. #103
    I wonder how much people in Scotland really care about the EU. I suspect a decent amount of No voters then voted Remain because they didn't want another referendum and not because they had a strong opinion on the EU. Maybe if Indy2 wasn't on the agenda, the EU result in Scotland would have been quite different? Thoughts?

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    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    Instead of just saying that there's a huge difference. Perhaps you would like to explain what this "huge difference" actually is?

    Is it healthy to forever remaining in a "union" where your voice is merely ignored time and time again?
    I do hope you're not at the wind-up as that's poor form.
    A referendum is a single issue question with usually a binary option offered to the electorate. An election doesn't have a question at it's core but usually a manifesto and the options are endless, you elect your representative who answers the questions on your behalf through parliamentary voting.

    Your point re ignored voice, well that's your opinion, I can't comment on that but would say you're not alone.

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    After the 2014 referendum I was quite happy to let the issue settle despite the result (voted Yes). The EU vote changed that for me - I've always been more pro-EU than pro-independence and I am genuinely concerned and frightened by the growing rise of ethnic nationalism in Europe and worldwide. There is absolutely no way I want to be part of an isolationist UK to the point where I've been seriously considering moving abroad.

    The Holyrood result and the EU result gave Sturgeon a mandate for a second referendum - if we vote No this time then that really will be the issue done for a generation. We're by no means definitely going to thrive as an independent nation if we vote Yes this time, but IMO it's a decision between "might not be ****" (Yes) and "definitely will be ****" (No).

    I understand a want for stability if you're a relatively secure homeowner with a stable income and good pension prospects, but for "generation rent" and the 100k EU nationals resident in Scotland (which pretty much sums up me and my partner) we'll be ****ed if nothing changes.


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  17. #106
    @hibs.net private member Newry Hibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by High-On-Hibs View Post
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    Sorry, but I don't buy the argument that we voted to leave the EU as a "United" Kingdom. We quite evidently aren't united. Scotland doesn't get what it wants from this "united" kingdom 99% of the time, so why keep lying to yourselves?

    Why are you so desperate to cling on to something that quite clearly isn't in the democratic interests of our nation? I just don't get it.
    Maybe there should be a referendum on this .. Oh wait, there was.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLadd View Post
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    The truth is sometimes hard to swallow, there's no nice way of putting it. I approach the union from a purely pragmatic and non emotionally invested view: we benefit from it immensely and would suffer real and lasting economic hardship if we broke away, something the good people of Renfrewshire South are blissfully unaware.
    You can have zero emotional investment in a particular view and still be completely wrong.

  19. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by JackLadd View Post
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    The truth is sometimes hard to swallow, there's no nice way of putting it. I approach the union from a purely pragmatic and non emotionally invested view: we benefit from it immensely and would suffer real and lasting economic hardship if we broke away, something the good people of Renfrewshire South are blissfully unaware.
    No, but I think the jibes regarding heather, hooch and kola cubes that you have come out with over the past few days are an unnecessarily "not nice" way of putting it.

    There are certainly benefits that come from being part of the Union and you are perfectly entitled to your opinion that those benefits outweigh the costs, all the better that it is pragmatic and unemotional.

    Many people see it a different way. There are parts of Renfrewshire that are far from pleasant and there will be a great number of people there who don't see many of the benefits of the Union (or who won't think they do anyway) and will be only too happy to trade what little they've got for the chance of something better.

  20. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I do hope you're not at the wind-up as that's poor form.
    A referendum is a single issue question with usually a binary option offered to the electorate. An election doesn't have a question at it's core but usually a manifesto and the options are endless, you elect your representative who answers the questions on your behalf through parliamentary voting.

    Your point re ignored voice, well that's your opinion, I can't comment on that but would say you're not alone.
    No, i'm not winding you up.

    Manifestos can be provided during referendums as well. It's not mandatory, but giving a detailed outline over a series of different policies isn't uncommon, even during a referendum.

    The point (i think) you seem to be making is that it's ok for elections to be held regularly, but not referendums. But you haven't given any reason as to why you think this should be the case.

    You can't comment on it, or you won't comment on it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Holmesdale Hibs View Post
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    I wonder how much people in Scotland really care about the EU. I suspect a decent amount of No voters then voted Remain because they didn't want another referendum and not because they had a strong opinion on the EU. Maybe if Indy2 wasn't on the agenda, the EU result in Scotland would have been quite different? Thoughts?
    My thoughts are that this viewpoint is quite disrespectful to the Scottish electorate. I'd suggest people in Scotland who voted remain "care about the EU" just as much as anyone else who voted remain across the rest of the UK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RagingReality View Post
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    After the 2014 referendum I was quite happy to let the issue settle despite the result (voted Yes). The EU vote changed that for me - I've always been more pro-EU than pro-independence and I am genuinely concerned and frightened by the growing rise of ethnic nationalism in Europe and worldwide. There is absolutely no way I want to be part of an isolationist UK to the point where I've been seriously considering moving abroad.

    The Holyrood result and the EU result gave Sturgeon a mandate for a second referendum - if we vote No this time then that really will be the issue done for a generation. We're by no means definitely going to thrive as an independent nation if we vote Yes this time, but IMO it's a decision between "might not be ****" (Yes) and "definitely will be ****" (No).

    I understand a want for stability if you're a relatively secure homeowner with a stable income and good pension prospects, but for "generation rent" and the 100k EU nationals resident in Scotland (which pretty much sums up me and my partner) we'll be ****ed if nothing changes.
    Until the next 'game changer'. Who decides what can kick off a referendum?

  23. #112
    @hibs.net private member CapitalGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newry Hibs View Post
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    Until the next 'game changer'. Who decides what can kick off a referendum?
    The electorate by voting in parties that put the intention to hold another referendum in their manifesto.

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    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    So by the time of Indyref2 will I know if I vote yes that I am voting for Scotland to be part of the EU, no if and buts and maybes but a signed off guarantee that Scotland will join the EU, or will I be voting for a 'we hope so, we think so' type scenario.

    Will we know what a Yes or No vote will mean for our EU membership with complete certainty?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newry Hibs View Post
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    Until the next 'game changer'. Who decides what can kick off a referendum?
    Hmm, I don't know..... perhaps an electorate voting in a party with it in their manifesto pledge?

  26. #115
    @hibs.net private member Bristolhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newry Hibs View Post
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    Until the next 'game changer'. Who decides what can kick off a referendum?
    A democratically elected Scottish Government.

    J

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    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Happy Commonwealth Day
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    So by the time of Indyref2 will I know if I vote yes that I am voting for Scotland to be part of the EU, no if and buts and maybes but a signed off guarantee that Scotland will join the EU, or will I be voting for a 'we hope so, we think so' type scenario.

    Will we know what a Yes or No vote will mean for our EU membership with complete certainty?
    Things will become clearer as time goes on, however, nothing will ever be a 100% solid guarantee regardless of what side of this you are on. That's just the nature of politics.

  29. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    So by the time of Indyref2 will I know if I vote yes that I am voting for Scotland to be part of the EU, no if and buts and maybes but a signed off guarantee that Scotland will join the EU, or will I be voting for a 'we hope so, we think so' type scenario.

    Will we know what a Yes or No vote will mean for our EU membership with complete certainty?
    wee pablo from spain and big Gunther from germany say we will and thats good enough for most folk on here

  30. #119
    Coaching Staff Smartie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Holmesdale Hibs View Post
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    I wonder how much people in Scotland really care about the EU. I suspect a decent amount of No voters then voted Remain because they didn't want another referendum and not because they had a strong opinion on the EU. Maybe if Indy2 wasn't on the agenda, the EU result in Scotland would have been quite different? Thoughts?
    I think that this is the crux of the matter.

    I nearly didn't bother going to vote in the EU referendum. I forgot, I hadn't given it a great deal of thought and went along with about half an hour to cast my vote. I voted to remain but I must admit that I was probably 70/30 at most. In voting remain I was far from giving a ringing endorsement of the recent record of the EU, in fact it was anything but. But it was vote for a bigger picture that I believe in, and I'd rather we tried to change from within that from outside.

    I have a problem with the Euro. I know that the financial crash mainly came about because of the sub-prime lending situation particularly in the USA, but I think the single European currency has a lot to answer for. I don't like that countries in the Eu have fiscal union but not political union - in my opinion it cannot work. I didn't like the SNP plan to use the pound last Indyref and I wouldn't like it now (nor do I like the Euro). The problems in the Euro zone have come about since the introduction of the Euro.

    I think that the EU is a fantastic idea and the fact that relative peace has been kept over the past 50 years in a historically volatile part of the world has been a great achievement and is in many ways thanks to the EU.

    I do however think that change has been too rapid, and I don't think enough respect is paid towards our differences. Different groups of people sometimes have different outlooks and values and I don't think the EU pays enough respect to that. German values should not be being inflicted on the Greeks etc etc. I would like the pace of change to be slower and I think those who are frustrated with the EU have been most uncomfortable about the rate of change.


    I believe strongly that Scotland should be Independent from the UK. I believe that much more strongly than I do that we have the right to hold another referendum, I respected the result the last time and accepted that the likes of being taken out of the EU, having endless Conservative governments etc etc were the prices we had to pay for not winning the argument in 2014. I'm not 100% convinced that enough has materially changed since 2014 to justify another referendum but I'll go with it anyway.

    What will be interesting will be for those who do feel passionately about Europe and what may have happened to their opinions, particularly the LibDems. They're generally a very pro-European lot and may find more that they like in a Yes campaign than the hard Brexit one. There may be Labour politicians who might have a political future if they join the Yes side, whereas they may have no future whatsoever if they stay put.

    We live in interesting times.
    Last edited by Smartie; 13-03-2017 at 03:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    wee pablo from spain and big Gunther from germany say we will and thats good enough for most folk on here
    But wasn't it "wee pablo from spain" who was going to stand in our way and stop us gaining entry?

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