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Thread: Indy Ref 2

  1. #31
    @hibs.net private member HiBremian's Avatar
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    A vote in early 2019 would mean 4-5 years between the 2 referenda, coincidentally the same as the cycle of parliamentary elections. In this age of constant plebisites we maybe need to get used to it. After all, if a pro-EU gvt is elected to Westminster in 2025 (forget 2020!) there may well be another EU vote. And if a unionist majority is elected to Holyrood in an indy Scotland in 2026 (or whenever the next again election is) we could have a "re-join the union" vote. That's democracy at the mo, until someone comes up with a better system for radical constitutional change.


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    Delighted

  4. #33
    @hibs.net private member Speedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Bore off Sturgeon. The lack of respect for the 2014 result by the SNP has been a disgrace. There was ongoing agitation for a second vote long before Brexit provided a convenient cover story. Had the vote gone the other way three years ago and there had been a call from no voters for a second referendum do you think the SNP would have given that a second's consideration? Yet you'd think by their stance since 2014 that the yes voters had in some way been unjustly served at the ballot box. Yes, the SNP's rasion d'etre is an independent Scotland but their record as a government which is supposed to act in the interests of all Scottish citizens has been pitiful, such has been their monomanical obsession with indyref2.

    It's a nonsense to suggest there's a groundswell of fear across Scotland about leaving the EU. In fact a good number of SNP members and supporters actually voted for Brexit (I voted remain incidentally). It's an excuse, not a reason for another tiresome referendum which will serve no purpose other than to stir up all the bitterness among the more rabid elements on both sides, which was the most depressing aspect of 2014. This is nothing to do with Brexit, it's all about power for the SNP. Stock phrases such as 'against our will' and 'hard Brexit cliff edge' are simply powerful sound bites.
    If the population still want to stay then that's how they'll vote, if no then so be it. From that perspective I have no issue with another vote.

    It would be nice though if we didn't spend a fortune and fall out in the process.

  5. #34
    Testimonial Due SeanWilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newry Hibs View Post
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    Scotland voted to remain in the UK. The UK voted to Exit the EU. Scotland didn't get a vote on this.

    Otherwise 'London' could say 'we' want to stay. Maybe my household will leave the EU and my neighbours will stay in.
    London has nothing to do with this. The landscape in every shape and form has changed significantly and it is democratically correct to give the people of Scotland a choice. Until this morning I was probably in the no camp (voted yes previously). Now I'm in the 'we actually have an option, let's see what's best' camp. It was the right thing to do.

  6. #35
    @hibs.net private member stantonhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HiBremian View Post
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    A vote in early 2019 would mean 4-5 years between the 2 referenda, coincidentally the same as the cycle of parliamentary elections. In this age of constant plebisites we maybe need to get used to it. After all, if a pro-EU gvt is elected to Westminster in 2025 (forget 2020!) there may well be another EU vote. And if a unionist majority is elected to Holyrood in an indy Scotland in 2026 (or whenever the next again election is) we could have a "re-join the union" vote. That's democracy at the mo, until someone comes up with a better system for radical constitutional change.


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    Jeepers , you make it sound like the hokey-cokey! I can just about conceive of a future vote on Europe but as for independence, once we've gone that's it imo

  7. #36
    @hibs.net private member HiBremian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stantonhibby View Post
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    Jeepers , you make it sound like the hokey-cokey! I can just about conceive of a future vote on Europe but as for independence, once we've gone that's it imo
    You're probably right, but technically there's no reason why unionist parties won't stand in holyrood elections post-indy. Maybe Ruthie will rename her party the "Conservative and Hokey-Cokey" party :-)


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  8. #37
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Bore off Sturgeon. The lack of respect for the 2014 result by the SNP has been a disgrace. There was ongoing agitation for a second vote long before Brexit provided a convenient cover story. Had the vote gone the other way three years ago and there had been a call from no voters for a second referendum do you think the SNP would have given that a second's consideration? Yet you'd think by their stance since 2014 that the yes voters had in some way been unjustly served at the ballot box. Yes, the SNP's rasion d'etre is an independent Scotland but their record as a government which is supposed to act in the interests of all Scottish citizens has been pitiful, such has been their monomanical obsession with indyref2.

    It's a nonsense to suggest there's a groundswell of fear across Scotland about leaving the EU. In fact a good number of SNP members and supporters actually voted for Brexit (I voted remain incidentally). It's an excuse, not a reason for another tiresome referendum which will serve no purpose other than to stir up all the bitterness among the more rabid elements on both sides, which was the most depressing aspect of 2014. This is nothing to do with Brexit, it's all about power for the SNP. Stock phrases such as 'against our will' and 'hard Brexit cliff edge' are simply powerful sound bites.
    No purpose? Other than to settle the issue one way or another?

  9. #38
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    I don't see the need to hold an independence referendum next year. Why not lets see what comes out the Brexit deal and then have the indyref2 vote? If that takes us until 2012 then I don't see a problem with that.

    Asking people to vote on independence when they do not know what Brexit will look like is a bit unfair on the voter I think.

    Bring It on though it will be a fierce battle I am sure.

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    I don't see the need to hold an independence referendum next year. Why not lets see what comes out the Brexit deal and then have the indyref2 vote? If that takes us until 2012 then I don't see a problem with that.

    Asking people to vote on independence when they do not know what Brexit will look like is a bit unfair on the voter I think.

    Bring It on though it will be a fierce battle I am sure.
    Which is why we are not doing that.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
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    He'll die before he's sold.

  11. #40
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HomeTeam View Post
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    I don't see the need to hold an independence referendum next year. Why not lets see what comes out the Brexit deal and then have the indyref2 vote? If that takes us until 2012 then I don't see a problem with that.

    Asking people to vote on independence when they do not know what Brexit will look like is a bit unfair on the voter I think.

    Bring It on though it will be a fierce battle I am sure.
    But we should a clearer view of what form Brexit will take by the autumn of next year - as stated by Nicola Sturgeon.

  12. #41
    @hibs.net private member Newry Hibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    I guess that is why she mentioned Autumn 18 to Spring 19 at the earliest. Give people like yourself the chance to assess both options.

    J
    Or it is blatant opportunism. Around then is the crux of Brexit which may be fraught with difficulties and the UK gov spending time on this rather than on a second referendum.

  13. #42
    @hibs.net private member Hibs Class's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    No purpose? Other than to settle the issue one way or another?
    Except they said that last time around as well!
    ​#PERSEVERED


  14. #43
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy View Post
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    If the population still want to stay then that's how they'll vote, if no then so be it. From that perspective I have no issue with another vote.
    I personally do have an issue with having referendums ad nauseam until we get the desired outcome.
    Referendums are important & vital in democracy, but where you have a binary choice of status quo or change, then we have to be careful to not lessen the process by repeatedly asking the same question until the "change" is returned as that will be the last referendum on that question.

  15. #44
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    A ****ing disgrace.

  16. #45
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    Can we have a separate thread for the usual suspects on both sides who take over the conversation and copy and paste their posts from the last thread

    All I hope is that Alastair Darling isn't involved this time, can't bare to look at those eyebrows again!

  17. #46
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I personally do have an issue with having referendums ad nauseam until we get the desired outcome.
    Referendums are important & vital in democracy, but where you have a binary choice of status quo or change, then we have to be careful to not lessen the process by repeatedly asking the same question until the "change" is returned as that will be the last referendum on that question.
    But one of Better Together's main arguments was that an iScotland no longer be part of the EU. Now the opposite looks more likely. For me that nullifies the result of the first referendum.

  18. #47
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sylar View Post
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    This doesn't confirm another Independence referendum - it merely says she's going to ask for permission for one. I sincerely doubt Westminster will grant her that.
    Westminster won't block it.

    Weird that Holyrood needs to ask permission to have a vote on breaking the union, I don't remember us ever asking the EU if it was ok to go ahead and vote on leaving that.

  19. #48
    @hibs.net private member HiBremian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I personally do have an issue with having referendums ad nauseam until we get the desired outcome.
    Referendums are important & vital in democracy, but where you have a binary choice of status quo or change, then we have to be careful to not lessen the process by repeatedly asking the same question until the "change" is returned as that will be the last referendum on that question.
    As long as Scottish voters say no to indy, then promptly elect a pro-indy gvt at Holyrood, I would humbly suggest it's the voters' fault. Kez's latest federalism move doesn't seem to have set the house on fire either.

  20. #49
    @hibs.net private member easty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibs Class View Post
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    Except they said that last time around as well!
    You can't possibly deny that there has been a huge change of circumstances though?

    It's not like the SNP have just decided that we should have another referendum because Limmy Show was only broadcast on BBC Scotland.

  21. #50
    @hibs.net private member Mikey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by frazeHFC View Post
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    Aw god not again. Will be many people getting unfollowed on social media, was draining last time.
    Absolutely. I'm closing my facebook later today once I've swapped e-mail address with a couple of people so we don't lose touch altogether.

  22. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    A ****ing disgrace.
    I was bit unsure but that's made my day.

  23. #52
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    A ****ing disgrace.
    Nice to see the reasoned debate has started already.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  24. #53
    @hibs.net private member stantonhibby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    No purpose? Other than to settle the issue one way or another?
    Hmm, you would hope so but if it was say Yes 49% & No 51% for example I doubt it.

  25. #54
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bristolhibby View Post
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    Does Brexit not entitle folk to think again?
    Indeed it does, and my vote is likely to change from No to Yes.
    HIBERNIAN FC - ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY SINCE 1875

  26. #55
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peevemor View Post
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    But one of Better Together's main arguments was that an iScotland no longer be part of the EU. Now the opposite looks more likely. For me that nullifies the result of the first referendum.
    I didn't think that was one of their main arguments but fair enough if it was.
    Unfortunately this was a referendum on independence, with many MANY issues on the line. We had our EU referendum last year and we are where we are because of that.
    I still don't think it's right to have referendums every time there's a change on the political horizon, and as I say, a YES will signal the end of that particular referendum question,,,,is that how democracy works, keep asking the question until you get the right answer?

  27. #56
    @hibs.net private member CapitalGreen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I didn't think that was one of their main arguments but fair enough if it was.
    Unfortunately this was a referendum on independence, with many MANY issues on the line. We had our EU referendum last year and we are where we are because of that.
    I still don't think it's right to have referendums every time there's a change on the political horizon, and as I say, a YES will signal the end of that particular referendum question,,,,is that how democracy works, keep asking the question until you get the right answer?
    We have general elections every 4/5 years. Why not just have one election and keep those in power forever. Why keep asking the question until you get the government you want?

  28. #57
    Testimonial Due SeanWilson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I didn't think that was one of their main arguments but fair enough if it was.
    Unfortunately this was a referendum on independence, with many MANY issues on the line. We had our EU referendum last year and we are where we are because of that.
    I still don't think it's right to have referendums every time there's a change on the political horizon, and as I say, a YES will signal the end of that particular referendum question,,,,is that how democracy works, keep asking the question until you get the right answer?
    Do you not feel in the least bit aggrieved that we're at the mercy of Westminster when it comes to 'brexit', whether for it or against? For me, the brexit vote and the subsequent ignorance/arrogance towards any opinion other than that of the hard line tory, makes this a must for the Scottish people. I'm not sure which way I'll vote in indyref2, however I'm glad I've now got a legitimate option and reasoned arguments (in between the rhetoric) to listen to over the next year or so.

  29. #58
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  30. #59
    Coaching Staff -Jonesy-'s Avatar
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    Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee-Haaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    Game On

  31. #60
    @hibs.net private member Peevemor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I didn't think that was one of their main arguments but fair enough if it was.
    Unfortunately this was a referendum on independence, with many MANY issues on the line. We had our EU referendum last year and we are where we are because of that.
    I still don't think it's right to have referendums every time there's a change on the political horizon, and as I say, a YES will signal the end of that particular referendum question,,,,is that how democracy works, keep asking the question until you get the right answer?
    With support for the SNP at it's current level, talk of independence and another referendum is unavoidable. However, I'm fairly sure that had the Brexit vote gone the other way, it would have stayed as just talk for the foreseeable future.

    The UK that people voted to remain part of is about to change radically and many of the arguments that were used against Scottish independence were used by the same people as reasons to vote remain in the Brexit vote.

    Surely that's enough to justify another referendum?

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