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Thread: Indy Ref 2

  1. #2011
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    He says a lot.

    Here is another quote from him about the Ukraine in 2005 while running for the Canadian Liberal party.

    "I have reasons to take the Ukraine seriously indeed. But, to be honest, I'm having trouble. Ukrainian independence conjures up images of peasants in embroidered shirts, the nasal whine of ethnic instruments, phony Cossacks in cloaks and boots..."[

    He also referred to himself as American, while running for election, in Canada.

    HE SAYS "I never felt part of the political common sense of Britain. I didn't really get what people there cared about."

    Not the brightest Harvard alumni, if you ask me.
    Last edited by Golden Fleece; Yesterday at 02:00 PM.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.


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  3. #2012
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    I was sent the article below by a Canadian relative prior to the 2014 referendum. Not expecting many on here to agree with it, just posting it because I think it captures the way a lot of no voters felt and still feel about being part of the union - and is expressed far more eloquently than I could put it.

    Thanks for posting his well-presented article, hits home with much of how I feel about the situation back home ...

  4. #2013
    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Ignatieff
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    I am an English-speaking Canadian but my entire family – Russian exiles and the Canadians they married – is buried in Quebec, and if Quebec were to separate I would feel I had been cut in two. This is why my belief in multinational, multi-ethnic states, not just in Canada but also in Britain, Spain, the former Yugoslavia and now in Ukraine, has always been a matter of passion.
    This is the key bit for me, he's emotionally invested in his own national identity which is that of a Canadian in a Canada that includes Québec. So basically, he builds an intellectual case to suit his own emotional need.

    Which is fine, but the corollary is that the French speaking Québecois is denied his or her right to live in a country that reflects their identity. Or here, my country is a region of someone else's, I have no emotional investment whatever in the British state.

    In Québec, the circle has been squared by giving Québec full autonomy within Canada. Not near-federalism or devo-max but an actual state within a proper federation with complete power over domestic affairs and even certain external facing ones such as their own immigration policy.

    This might work in Scotland, or at least might have worked, I tend to think that ship has sailed.

  5. #2014
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Laugh out loud moment. Cheers.

    The Tory party have raised the rhetoric recently on Indyref2 and sending messages. Maybe someone took them at their word eh.

    https://wingsoverscotland.com/love-i...n-an-open-car/
    Thank god they could not be described as a one trick pony eh? It's not surprising they don't have any time for the DAYJOB eh? FFS.

  6. #2015
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    He says a lot.

    Here is another quote from him about the Ukraine in 2005 while running for the Canadian Liberal party.

    "I have reasons to take the Ukraine seriously indeed. But, to be honest, I'm having trouble. Ukrainian independence conjures up images of peasants in embroidered shirts, the nasal whine of ethnic instruments, phony Cossacks in cloaks and boots..."[

    He also referred to himself as American, while running for election, in Canada.

    HE SAYS "I never felt part of the political common sense of Britain. I didn't really get what people there cared about."

    Not the brightest Harvard alumni, if you ask me.
    Yep, he sounds a bit dim right enough:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ignatieff

  7. #2016
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    This is the key bit for me, he's emotionally invested in his own national identity which is that of a Canadian in a Canada that includes Québec. So basically, he builds an intellectual case to suit his own emotional need.

    Which is fine, but the corollary is that the French speaking Québecois is denied his or her right to live in a country that reflects their identity. Or here, my country is a region of someone else's, I have no emotional investment whatever in the British state.

    In Québec, the circle has been squared by giving Québec full autonomy within Canada. Not near-federalism or devo-max but an actual state within a proper federation with complete power over domestic affairs and even certain external facing ones such as their own immigration policy.

    This might work in Scotland, or at least might have worked, I tend to think that ship has sailed.
    He doesn't sound emotionally needy to me. Based on what he's written he comes across to me as an intelligent, eloquent and articulate individual expressing a point of view close to his heart. But if, as you say, you have zero emotional investment in the British state I can understand why it's a head scratcher for you that so many voters in Scotland feel an emotional connection to the union similar to the feelings Ignatieff has for his own country.

    As I said, not expecting any nationalist on here to agree with him. His piece simply struck a chord with me.

  8. #2017
    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    He doesn't sound emotionally needy to me. Based on what he's written he comes across to me as an intelligent, eloquent and articulate individual expressing a point of view close to his heart. But if, as you say, you have zero emotional investment in the British state I can understand why it's a head scratcher for you that so many voters in Scotland feel an emotional connection to the union similar to the feelings Ignatieff has for his own country.

    As I said, not expecting any nationalist on here to agree with him. His piece simply struck a chord with me.
    Jeez - can you not read a response without being so touchy?

    I didn't say he was emotionally needy, well not moreso than anyone else and yes, he expressed his view in such a way as to make it clear it is close to his heart. Thus it is a case built on emotion. And there's nothing wrong with that, in my view. I think it's an unfortunate aspect of the Scottish constitutional question that so much of it is conducted entirely on a financial cost/benefit basis and every other aspect; cultural, emotional, etc is largely ignored.

    I also didn't say I didn't understand it. Just because I have no emotional connection to Britain doesn't mean I don't recognise others do. The point I was trying (but clearly failing) to make is that there is another side to the coin. For every unionist who feels they'd lose a part of their identity along with the Union, there's a nationalist who feels that part of their identity is missing because they have no country.

    And of course, there's myriad shades in between, and people who don't care about national identity at all but take an entirely pragmatic view of the constitution based on other things important to them, etc, etc.

  9. #2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Yep, he sounds a bit dim right enough:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Ignatieff
    He was quite an eminent academic if memeory serves from uni

  10. #2019
    @hibs.net private member greenlex's Avatar
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    Do the tories know the election next week is to elect local councils and councillors? I've just endured their party political broadcast. At least 10 times throughout the broadcast, which is only what 2 maybe 3 mins max.l, they either mentioned audibly or. visually independence or referendum. Are folks really falling for this? What about local issues rather than something that is sat best 18months to two years away and **** all to do with councillors. Talk about the day job😂😂
    Last edited by greenlex; Yesterday at 07:02 PM.

  11. #2020
    Quote Originally Posted by greenlex View Post
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    Do the tories know the election next week is to elect local councils and councillors? I've just endured their party political broadcast. At least 10 times throughout the broadcast, which is only what 2 maybe 3 mins max.l, they either mentioned audibly or. visually independence or referendum. Are folks really falling for this? What about local issues rather than something that is sat best 18months to two years away and **** all to do with councillors. Talk about the day job😂😂
    nobody would be talking about independence if Sturgeon hadnt called for indyref2 . It was quite obviously going to crop up in any subsequent elections

  12. #2021
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    nobody would be talking about independence if Sturgeon hadnt called for indyref2 . It was quite obviously going to crop up in any subsequent elections
    That's not 100% correct though... Even on here it's been mentioned over the last year or so how it seems to be the Tories mentioning it at every opportunity... I guess it's probably because any other argument they have must be pretty weak


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  13. #2022
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    That's not 100% correct though... Even on here it's been mentioned over the last year or so how it seems to be the Tories mentioning it at every opportunity... I guess it's probably because any other argument they have must be pretty weak


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  14. #2023
    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Jeez - can you not read a response without being so touchy?

    I didn't say he was emotionally needy, well not moreso than anyone else and yes, he expressed his view in such a way as to make it clear it is close to his heart. Thus it is a case built on emotion. And there's nothing wrong with that, in my view. I think it's an unfortunate aspect of the Scottish constitutional question that so much of it is conducted entirely on a financial cost/benefit basis and every other aspect; cultural, emotional, etc is largely ignored.

    I also didn't say I didn't understand it. Just because I have no emotional connection to Britain doesn't mean I don't recognise others do. The point I was trying (but clearly failing) to make is that there is another side to the coin. For every unionist who feels they'd lose a part of their identity along with the Union, there's a nationalist who feels that part of their identity is missing because they have no country.

    And of course, there's myriad shades in between, and people who don't care about national identity at all but take an entirely pragmatic view of the constitution based on other things important to them, etc, etc.
    Sorry, it wasn't my intention to appear touchy. The perils of text/email/messageboard etc responses are that you can't always convey your tone accurately. I should probably have stuck a couple of emojis in there but I sometimes worry they can appear condescending or annoying!

    My opposition to independence is most certainly based to a large extent on an emotional connection to being British. In fact I was surprised by the strength of my feeling on the matter when it appeared there was a prospect of losing that identity in 2014, which is why I found so much in Ignatieff's piece to identify with.

    Had the result in 2014 gone the other way, though, I'm not sure I'd have started banging the drum for a new referendum to rejoin the UK. I like to think I'd have rolled reluctantly with with the result as a democratic necessity and as I'm sure you're aware it's the SNP's perceived lack of respect for the way the vote DID go that grates with so many non nationalists.

    Anyway, enough from me for this week. Have a good weekend

  15. #2024
    @hibs.net private member greenlex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Sorry, it wasn't my intention to appear touchy. The perils of text/email/messageboard etc responses are that you can't always convey your tone accurately. I should probably have stuck a couple of emojis in there but I sometimes worry they can appear condescending or annoying!

    My opposition to independence is most certainly based to a large extent on an emotional connection to being British. In fact I was surprised by the strength of my feeling on the matter when it appeared there was a prospect of losing that identity in 2014, which is why I found so much in Ignatieff's piece to identify with.

    Had the result in 2014 gone the other way, though, I'm not sure I'd have started banging the drum for a new referendum to rejoin the UK. I like to think I'd have rolled reluctantly with with the result as a democratic necessity and as I'm sure you're aware it's the SNP's perceived lack of respect for the way the vote DID go that grates with so many non nationalists.

    Anyway, enough from me for this week. Have a good weekend
    To be honest I think the perceived lack of respect for the result of the vote comes squarely from the fact the way the no campaign was fought in particular the vow and European question. Most yes voters feel cheated and dusappointed as do many no voters swayed by both points late in the day and has little to do with lack of respect. I accept there will be others going the other way because the subsequent short time between referendums and are somewhat either turned it completely or turned on the SNP because if that.
    Last edited by greenlex; Yesterday at 08:19 PM.

  16. #2025
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    nobody would be talking about independence if Sturgeon hadnt called for indyref2 . It was quite obviously going to crop up in any subsequent elections
    In the Council elections?

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  17. #2026
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenlex View Post
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    To be honest I think the perceived lack of respect for the result of the vote comes squarely from the fact the way the no campaign was fought in particular the vow and European question. Most yes voters feel cheated and dusappointed as do many no voters swayed by both points late in the day and has little to do with lack of respect. I accept there will be others going the other way by the subsequent short time between referendums.
    Ta saved me some typing!

    Also to be fair to GBY... Up to that point in the post I was in 100% agreement.

    Anyways... Have a good weekend guys.. We can pick this all up again next week I'm sure!


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  18. #2027
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    Quote Originally Posted by makaveli1875 View Post
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    nobody would be talking about independence if Sturgeon hadnt called for indyref2 . It was quite obviously going to crop up in any subsequent elections
    Pony, I don't know what the Tory Scottish leader's policy is ? Has Ruthie got any progressive policies for Scotland ? I'd like to hear one,just one will do, other than no to independence.

  19. #2028
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Sorry, it wasn't my intention to appear touchy. The perils of text/email/messageboard etc responses are that you can't always convey your tone accurately. I should probably have stuck a couple of emojis in there but I sometimes worry they can appear condescending or annoying!

    My opposition to independence is most certainly based to a large extent on an emotional connection to being British. In fact I was surprised by the strength of my feeling on the matter when it appeared there was a prospect of losing that identity in 2014, which is why I found so much in Ignatieff's piece to identify with.

    Had the result in 2014 gone the other way, though, I'm not sure I'd have started banging the drum for a new referendum to rejoin the UK. I like to think I'd have rolled reluctantly with with the result as a democratic necessity and as I'm sure you're aware it's the SNP's perceived lack of respect for the way the vote DID go that grates with so many non nationalists.

    Anyway, enough from me for this week. Have a good weekend
    I hear this spouted so often by the Unionists that I think that they believe if the say it so often, it has to be true. Complete tosh and you know it.

    There is no lack of respect towards the outcome of the 2014 vote by the SNP. The Yes campaign in 2014 was founded on independence from the UK but Scotland being a member of the EU. The Unionist argument at that time was for Scotland to continue to be part of the EU it must vote No.

    The SNP manifesro commitment at the last election was that if Scotland was pulled out of the EU against its will it would consider that a material change and seek indyref2. The SNP won the election fair and square on that commitment.

    Lack of respect - you're deluding yourself.

  20. #2029
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Harp Awakes View Post
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    I hear this spouted so often by the Unionists that I think that they believe if the say it so often, it has to be true. Complete tosh and you know it.

    There is no lack of respect towards the outcome of the 2014 vote by the SNP. The Yes campaign in 2014 was founded on independence from the UK but Scotland being a member of the EU. The Unionist argument at that time was for Scotland to continue to be part of the EU it must vote No.

    The SNP manifesro commitment at the last election was that if Scotland was pulled out of the EU against its will it would consider that a material change and seek indyref2. The SNP won the election fair and square on that commitment.

    Lack of respect - you're deluding yourself.
    But whether it is true or not is subjective and actually irrelevant - if people percieve that it is true, then it is true, in effect.

    And lots of people do think it.

  21. #2030
    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    In the Council elections?

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