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Thread: Indy Ref 2

  1. #2311
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    I'll call this interesting from Bella Caledonia because I agree with a lot of it.
    A thought provoking article no matter your viewpoint.

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06...hey-will-come/
    With such a big majority, why has the SNP governed in such a bland and insipid fashion?


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  3. #2312
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    I'll call this interesting from Bella Caledonia because I agree with a lot of it.
    A thought provoking article no matter your viewpoint.

    http://bellacaledonia.org.uk/2017/06...hey-will-come/

    Certainly is.

  4. #2313
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    SNP have taken down their referendum fundraising page. Make of that what you will.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...itics-40260769

    Interesting to see it had only raised half of its target with a week to go.
    482,000 is not to be sniffed at.

    Money is being ring fenced, and will be used when we go again on Indy2

  5. #2314
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    482,000 is not to be sniffed at.

    Money is being ring fenced, and will be used when we go again on Indy2

    If it's in a generation you might not be here.

  6. #2315
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    482,000 is not to be sniffed at.

    Money is being ring fenced, and will be used when we go again on Indy2
    Brexit was the perfect trigger for IndyRef2 at the wrong time. On Thursday night I didn't think it was in doubt then again, like many others I did not think that the SNP would lose more than ten seats. Things move fast these days, that's for sure.
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  7. #2316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    If it's in a generation you might not be here.
    I and others will be the fruits of their labour :D

  8. #2317
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    If it's in a generation you might not be here.

  9. #2318
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    Brexit was the perfect trigger for IndyRef2 at the wrong time. On Thursday night I didn't think it was in doubt then again, like many others I did not think that the SNP would lose more than ten seats. Things move fast these days, that's for sure.
    They certainly do.

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  10. #2319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Betty Boop View Post
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    If it's in a generation you might not be here.
    I'm almost certain I won't. I'm about to hit my biblical max. as it is.

  11. #2320
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    Absolutely. You can't attribute the Tories winning a dozen extra seats and racking up double digit gains in almost every other Scottish seat to massed ranks of Labour voters voting Tory. That just wouldn't happen. The truth the SNP don't want to acknowledge is that voters find a lot to like about the Scottish Tories, in particular the extraordinary job Ruth Davidson has done in making them highly electable for the first time in many years.

    By doing things her way, Davidson has effectively kept the Tories in government and they should seriously consider a more senior role for her. This quote from the weekend sums up why the Tories did so well in Scotland and so poorly elsewhere:

    "When Theresa May was in Edinburgh, sharing a stage with Ruth Davidson, the leader of the Scottish Conservatives had so much energy you could plug her into the National Grid and there would be no need for a Winter Fuel Allowance. The contrast between the two women was painful. One brittle, stilted and awkward, the other likeable and bouncing with energy. No way could Ruth's fierce eloquence be schooled by special advisers; it gushes from a wellspring of deeply held beliefs. 'I want what she's having' is how Davidson makes you feel."
    You may be right but what I can't get my head round is that thousands of people decided to vote for the party that came up with the rape clause. RD was woeful in trying to sidestep every question she was asked on it and resorted to saying that the SNP government had the power to amend it rather than saying it's an abhorrent tax in the first place
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  12. #2321
    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    482,000 is not to be sniffed at.

    Money is being ring fenced, and will be used when we go again on Indy2
    When do you think that would be? As I've suggested before, the first, albeit small, signs of a Labour revival in Scotland must be more of a long-term concern to the SNP than the big increase in the Tory vote. If Scotland were to settle into an SNP v Tory political landscape then they'd always be confident of securing the majority of Scottish seats at both Holyrood and Westminster. But now that Corbyn's influence seems finally to be creeping over the border, his 'anti-austerity/politics of hope' message of is too close to the SNP's mantra for comfort and you have to wonder whether more and more lapsed Labour voters won't start to wonder if leaving the union is actually necessary after all. Coupled with the rejuvenated Scottish Tories, the SNP could find itself squeezed back down to size and lacking anything like the momentum to revive the independence campaign.

    How, then, are they likely to play this? Park indyref2 for at least a few years and focus on proving to the electorate they're about more than that? As we've seen in the space of a week, the political landscape can change remarkably fast and independence might seem appealing to many Scottish voters again a few years down the line. It would be a risky move if Labour's momentum is maintained, but trying to force the independence issue at this moment in time would surely be foolhardy.

  13. #2322
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    Quote Originally Posted by johnbc70 View Post
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    Really interesting read, certainly seen a number of behaviours here highlighted in that article.
    Good 'independent' article however, I disagree with some of the assertions.

  14. #2323
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    When do you think that would be? As I've suggested before, the first, albeit small, signs of a Labour revival in Scotland must be more of a long-term concern to the SNP than the big increase in the Tory vote. If Scotland were to settle into an SNP v Tory political landscape then they'd always be confident of securing the majority of Scottish seats at both Holyrood and Westminster. But now that Corbyn's influence seems finally to be creeping over the border, his 'anti-austerity/politics of hope' message of is too close to the SNP's mantra for comfort and you have to wonder whether more and more lapsed Labour voters won't start to wonder if leaving the union is actually necessary after all. Coupled with the rejuvenated Scottish Tories, the SNP could find itself squeezed back down to size and lacking anything like the momentum to revive the independence campaign.

    How, then, are they likely to play this? Park indyref2 for at least a few years and focus on proving to the electorate they're about more than that? As we've seen in the space of a week, the political landscape can change remarkably fast and independence might seem appealing to many Scottish voters again a few years down the line. It would be a risky move if Labour's momentum is maintained, but trying to force the independence issue at this moment in time would surely be foolhardy.
    Time for cool heads(not mine)

    I've seen it reported that May has said their won't be an Indyref in this Parliament. I'd let her take a lead in the whole thing, and if she keeps refusing, that's a bonus. Scots are thrawn when it comes to being told what to do and when.

    Let May take the lead on Brexit with the DUP in tow. When it goes mammarys skywards. It will be our turn.

    I should also have mentioned, we already have a mandate for Indyref2 in the bag. Parliament voted for it.
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 13-06-2017 at 10:07 PM.

  15. #2324
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    Quote Originally Posted by hibs0666 View Post
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    With such a big majority, why has the SNP governed in such a bland and insipid fashion?
    The SNP have only had a majority in 1 Parliament.

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  16. #2325
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonnyboy View Post
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    You may be right but what I can't get my head round is that thousands of people decided to vote for the party that came up with the rape clause. RD was woeful in trying to sidestep every question she was asked on it and resorted to saying that the SNP government had the power to amend it rather than saying it's an abhorrent tax in the first place
    You may not agree, but I think there's a significant proportion of the Scottish electorate (even those who don't vote Tory) who don't see the Scottish Tories as being cut from quite the same cloth as the wider party. I think our nation has always been more conservative (with a small c) than we care to admit (as evidenced by the 2014 referendum vote) and while it's half a century since the Tories could actually command a majority in Scotland, it was only post-Thatcher that they became virtually unelectable here.

    I think it's become clear since last week that Davidson was shackled to a significant extent by May's (now sacked) inner circle who vetoed a lot of what she wanted to focus on in Scotland during the election campaign. In fact, I read that the Scottish Tories felt they could have secured a couple more seats had it not been for such interference. Davidson was, rightly, keen to keep the anti-referendum message to the fore and reportedly did her best to fend off an insistence that she adopt the disastrous 'May as mother of the nation' approach from Tory HQ.

    As we've seen since last Thursday, Davidson's profile is a lot higher having effectively proved herself the party's saviour.
    Last edited by G B Young; 13-06-2017 at 10:19 PM.

  17. #2326
    Old Codger Hibstorian Jonnyboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by G B Young View Post
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    You may not agree, but I think there's a significant proportion of the Scottish electorate (even those who don't vote Tory) who don't see the Scottish Tories as being cut from quite the same cloth as the wider party. I think our nation has always been more conservative (with a small c) than we care to admit (as evidenced by the 2014 referendum vote) and while it's half a century since the Tories could actually command a majority in Scotland, it was only post-Thatcher that they became virtually unelectable here.

    I think it's become clear since last week that Davidson was shackled to a significant extent by May's (now sacked) inner circle who vetoed a lot of what she wanted to focus on in Scotland during the election campaign. In fact, I read that the Scottish Tories felt they could have secured a couple more seats had it not been for such interference. Davidson was, rightly, keen to keep the anti-referendum message to the fore and reportedly did her best to fend off an insistence that she adopt the disastrous 'May as mother of the nation' approach from Tory HQ.

    As we've seen since last Thursday, Davidson's profile is a lot higher having effectively proved herself the party's saviour.
    Notwithstanding all of that, RD did not condemn the policy and that, in my view, was contemptible
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  18. #2327
    @hibs.net private member johnbc70's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Time for cool heads(not mine)

    I've seen it reported that May has said their won't be an Indyref in this Parliament. I'd let her take a lead in the whole thing, and if she keeps refusing, that's a bonus. Scots are thrawn when it comes to being told what to do and when.

    Let May take the lead on Brexit with the DUP in tow. When it goes mammarys skywards. It will be our turn.

    I should also have mentioned, we already have a mandate for Indyref2 in the bag. Parliament voted for it.
    May won't keep refusing because it's unlikely she will be asked again any time soon. Can you seriously see Sturgeon asking for another Referendum after last week's results. You might not like it but it's dead for a while yet. May will be long gone when Indyref 2 becomes a serious issue again, and I suspect Sturgeon will be as well.

  19. #2328
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Time for cool heads(not mine)

    I've seen it reported that May has said their won't be an Indyref in this Parliament. I'd let her take a lead in the whole thing, and if she keeps refusing, that's a bonus. Scots are thrawn when it comes to being told what to do and when.

    Let May take the lead on Brexit with the DUP in tow. When it goes mammarys skywards. It will be our turn.

    I should also have mentioned, we already have a mandate for Indyref2 in the bag. Parliament voted for it.
    Quite aside from all the other political chaos, my biggest worry is this could undermine the progress made between the two sides in NI since the GFA.
    WTF are the Tories thinking of? Are they prepared to put all that at risk just to get a majority?

  20. #2329
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Quite aside from all the other political chaos, my biggest worry is this could undermine the progress made between the two sides in NI since the GFA.
    WTF are the Tories thinking of? Are they prepared to put all that at risk just to get a majority?
    I think Theresa May is. She is obsessed with power.

    For all the triumphalism that's come from the runners up in the Scottish contribution to the GE, the result overall is yet another example of any democratic case for the union being dead. Not only does Scotland once again get a government it soundly rejected, but now a bunch of NI extremists are getting a shout on our future, too.

  21. #2330
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  22. #2331
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    You couldn't make it up

  23. #2332
    resident moaning git DaveF's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by easty View Post
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    Please tell me that's not real.

  24. #2333
    Coaching Staff snooky's Avatar
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    Correct me if I'm wrong. The Jacobite uprisings were in the 18th century so the gentleman is a tad off the mark
    Last edited by snooky; 14-06-2017 at 09:52 AM.

  25. #2334
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Correct me if I'm wrong. The Jacobite uprisings were in the 18th century so the gentleman is a tad off the mark
    He may be suggesting that, in the 17th Century, Salmond was a man ahead of his time.
    Last edited by CropleyWasGod; 14-06-2017 at 10:13 AM.

  26. #2335
    @hibs.net private member cabbageandribs1875's Avatar
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    Scottish unemployment figures at lowest for 25 years, good news

  27. #2336
    Quote Originally Posted by snooky View Post
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    Correct me if I'm wrong. The Jacobite uprisings were in the 18th century so the gentleman is a tad off the mark
    The uprisings in Scotland were 18th century, but anyone who supported James VII's claim over King Billy & his missus (James' daughter Mary) was a Jacobite. (James being an anglicised version of the Latin Jacobus).

  28. #2337
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The uprisings in Scotland were 18th century, but anyone who supported James VII's claim over King Billy & his missus (James' daughter Mary) was a Jacobite. (James being an anglicised version of the Latin Jacobus).
    That looks like a quote straight out of 'Caledonication' I'm sure I read that bit on the bus this morning
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  29. #2338
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    That looks like a quote straight out of 'Caledonication' I'm sure I read that bit on the bus this morning
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  30. #2339
    Quote Originally Posted by cabbageandribs1875 View Post
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    Scottish unemployment figures at lowest for 25 years, good news
    It's because we're part of the UK. As soon as those figures fall, it will be because of the Scottish Government.....

  31. #2340
    Coaching Staff snooky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The uprisings in Scotland were 18th century, but anyone who supported James VII's claim over King Billy & his missus (James' daughter Mary) was a Jacobite. (James being an anglicised version of the Latin Jacobus).
    Thanks JMS.
    Apologies to the gentleman in the video. It would appear he has more knowledge than I re. the history of the late 1600's.

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