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Thread: Indy Ref 2

  1. #1891
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
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    Aye, it's not too clever but to say its on the same level as the Torys record breaking fine and something like 30 MPs about to have their doors knocked on by Inspector Knacker of the Yard it's perhaps pushing it a bit to suggest there's proportionately more rotten in the SNP.

    There's also a long history of MPs from all parties bothering the courts upto and including spending time at Her Majestys pleasure. Not an accusation that can be made of the SNP yet, although as they have only recently become a significant party at Westminster I dare say there's time yet.
    It was based on crude numbers - tories will habe ten times as many candidates as the SNP, therefore proportionately thats not far off.

    I take your point, and im not trying to defend the tories (or any orher party), im just trying to argue that the SNPs holier than thou attitude is a bit misplaced.


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  3. #1892
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Fair enough, no need to rehearse old arguments.

    The reason i asked if you agreed with them is that they called for tarriff free access, they might not get it because the EU doesnt want it (without 4 freedoms etc). Its a negotiating position.

    And presumably you think they are wrong because the EU wont accede to their plans. Ergo, an indy Scotland in the EU would have the same trade barriers with england post indy as the uk will habe with the EU post brexit.

    An indy Scotland outwith the EU will still habe to negotiate from a positiob of relative weakness with thd UK, where they would take on fhe role of punative card holder, as the EU is doing to us at the moment.

    Therefore i dont see how brexit can be am economic disaster while indepedence is some sunlit upland of opportunity. (I appreciate you dont say that, and you have accepted there is a degree of risk with indy)
    You are (still) missing the point. The BB position is that *irrespective of tarifs imposed in the UK->EU direction*, they will unilaterally not impose tariffs in the EU->UK direction.

    iScotland in the EU single market will get the EU negotiated arrangement with rUK, there's no need for a special vindictive deal for us.

    btw, I don't actually want Brexit to be an economic disaster and I don't expect imminent catastrophe, although a cliff edge WTO fallback might change that. A successful UK economy sustaining demand for iScottish goods and services would be better for all. However, I think it will lead to a long term decline in both economic performance and social conditions in the UK. I think it would be a huge mistake to tie our (Scotland's) colours to that mast.

  4. #1893
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    You are (still) missing the point. The BB position is that *irrespective of tarifs imposed in the UK->EU direction*, they will unilaterally not impose tariffs in the EU->UK direction.

    iScotland in the EU single market will get the EU negotiated arrangement with rUK, there's no need for a special vindictive deal for us.

    btw, I don't actually want Brexit to be an economic disaster and I don't expect imminent catastrophe, although a cliff edge WTO fallback might change that. A successful UK economy sustaining demand for iScottish goods and services would be better for all. However, I think it will lead to a long term decline in both economic performance and social conditions in the UK. I think it would be a huge mistake to tie our (Scotland's) colours to that mast.

    So you are saying that the UK wont impose tariffs on imported goods, even if they are applied to exported goods? I find that unlikely.

    But in that scenario, i take your point. Your logic is correct, bit i think the premise on which it is based isn't.

  5. #1894
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    My apologies, it was the herald (i was looking at both at the same time)

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1..._owns_a_hotel/

    So added to McGarry, Thompson, Bill Torrance and his punchy attitude to women, the Highland Councillor who fiddled his expenses (but is now selling his contacts within the SNP as part of a lobbying business with Mrs Angus Robertson, who has herself been involved in a separate lobbying scandal around t in the park), perhaps the SNP shouldnt be quite so sanctimonious.


    As a proportion of candidates, i would guess that is a higher rate of 'bad eggs' than the tories and their electiob expenses problems.
    Thanks for that.

    My posts regarding the Labour and Tory candidates were more to do with the social media storm which occurred in 2015 with Paco McSheepie, and how some will never learn.

    Frank Ross on the other hand, should have known better. All paperwork will now be corrected.

    I wonder if the others have apologised yet?

  6. #1895
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    You said you'd received literature from labour and the lib dems with indyref2 stuff on it. I've shown evidence of Tories independence rants, all on local election leaflets, however all you seem to say, that it's the SNP raising these issues, when clearly the opposite is true. Maybe you should reset your fake news settings. 😂


    Sturgeon launch the local manifesto says:

    "The council elections are a clear choice between the SNP who stand for strong and vibrant local communities - and a Tory party which has become a single-issue, Brexit-at-all-costs machine"


    Davidson days:

    "We have two key points to make at this election. After 10 years of SNP centralisation, we want to make the case for localism - so decisions are put back in the hands of your local community.

    ďAnd, after a decade of constitutional division, we want to send a message to the SNP: we donít want your unwanted independence referendum."



    Doesn't look too dissimilar approach to me...

  7. #1896
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Thanks for that.

    My posts regarding the Labour and Tory candidates were more to do with the social media storm which occurred in 2015 with Paco McSheepie, and how some will never learn.

    Frank Ross on the other hand, should have known better. All paperwork will now be corrected.

    I wonder if the others have apologised yet?
    For someone who claims not to work for the SNP, you certainly speak like you do...

    I habe no clue what the hell paco mcsheepie is, or whether you are taking the mick with that name. Maybe its a reference to tomorrow... ☺

  8. #1897
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    So you are saying that the UK wont impose tariffs on imported goods, even if they are applied to exported goods? I find that unlikely.

    But in that scenario, i take your point. Your logic is correct, bit i think the premise on which it is based isn't.
    Hey, it seems weird to me too, but it was a central part of the article Simar quoted last week.

    This kind of thing ...

    http://www.cityam.com/248187/option-...nilateral-free

  9. #1898
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    For someone who claims not to work for the SNP, you certainly speak like you do...

    I habe no clue what the hell paco mcsheepie is, or whether you are taking the mick with that name. Maybe its a reference to tomorrow... ☺
    Your continuing line is starting to bore me now, so much so, that I've decided to post a photo of you and yer mrs each time it's mentioned.

    nashmurray.jpg

    You really need to brush up on your politics though.
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 21-04-2017 at 01:43 PM.

  10. #1899
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    Hey, it seems weird to me too, but it was a central part of the article Simar quoted last week.

    This kind of thing ...

    http://www.cityam.com/248187/option-...nilateral-free
    Fair enough, seems weird to go into a difficult negotiation giving away your cards before they start!

  11. #1900
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    For someone who claims not to work for the SNP, you certainly speak like you do...

    I habe no clue what the hell paco mcsheepie is, or whether you are taking the mick with that name. Maybe its a reference to tomorrow... ☺
    The SNP candidate in Edin S last time who lost out to the Hearts ******* Murray. He was revealed to be behind an anonymous twitter account that slagged off Unionists in some way or other (Quislings maybe?) The revelation came too late for the SNP to drop him but they more or less disowned him. A significant factor in Murray's win.

  12. #1901
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Your continuing line is starting to bore me now. Others on here will vouch for my work

    You really need to brush up on your politics though.
    Come on, your 'all paperwork will now be corrected' sounds like something his boss would say.

    Amazing as it may seem, im not really into partisan politics, especially parochial spats about who said what on twitter. I despise it, amd i despise what twitter amd Facebook habe done to political discourse.

    Its why i enjoy these discussions, theu are generally very good. Twitter is to political discourse what shot drinking is to having a nice drink.

  13. #1902
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    The SNP candidate in Edin S last time who lost out to the Hearts ******* Murray. He was revealed to be behind an anonymous twitter account that slagged off Unionists in some way or other (Quislings maybe?) The revelation came too late for the SNP to drop him but they more or less disowned him. A significant factor in Murray's win.
    Ok, i did hear about that at the time actually, its my constituency! Didnt know it had become known as paco mcsheepie gate though.

    Its not lost on me that i live in the only constituency in scotland to have both labour MP and MSP.

    Thanks!

  14. #1903
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Sturgeon launch the local manifesto says:

    "The council elections are a clear choice between the SNP who stand for strong and vibrant local communities - and a Tory party which has become a single-issue, Brexit-at-all-costs machine"


    Davidson days:

    "We have two key points to make at this election. After 10 years of SNP centralisation, we want to make the case for localism - so decisions are put back in the hands of your local community.

    “And, after a decade of constitutional division, we want to send a message to the SNP: we don’t want your unwanted independence referendum."



    Doesn't look too dissimilar approach to me...
    Which piece of local election literature is this on?

    Nothing about it here.

    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1492769664
    Last edited by ronaldo7; 21-04-2017 at 01:31 PM.

  15. #1904
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Come on, your 'all paperwork will now be corrected' sounds like something his boss would say.

    Amazing as it may seem, im not really into partisan politics, especially parochial spats about who said what on twitter. I despise it, amd i despise what twitter amd Facebook habe done to political discourse.

    Its why i enjoy these discussions, theu are generally very good. Twitter is to political discourse what shot drinking is to having a nice drink.
    I was only quoting from the article.

  16. #1905
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    I see the SNP leader in Edinburgh is in trouble after 'forgetting' to declare that he owned a hotel.
    I won't be playing Monopoly with him then.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  17. #1906
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    My apologies, it was the herald (i was looking at both at the same time)

    http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1..._owns_a_hotel/

    So added to McGarry, Thompson, Bill Torrance and his punchy attitude to women, the Highland Councillor who fiddled his expenses (but is now selling his contacts within the SNP as part of a lobbying business with Mrs Angus Robertson, who has herself been involved in a separate lobbying scandal around t in the park), perhaps the SNP shouldnt be quite so sanctimonious.


    As a proportion of candidates, i would guess that is a higher rate of 'bad eggs' than the tories and their electiob expenses problems.
    I would guess that over the course of a few years every single political party will have the same proportion of 'bad eggs.' In that regard the SNP are no better or worse than any other party.
    Every gimmick hungry yob,
    Digging gold from rock and roll
    Grabs the mic to tell us,
    He'll die before he's sold.

  18. #1907
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    Quote Originally Posted by JeMeSouviens View Post
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    You are (still) missing the point. The BB position is that *irrespective of tarifs imposed in the UK->EU direction*, they will unilaterally not impose tariffs in the EU->UK direction.

    iScotland in the EU single market will get the EU negotiated arrangement with rUK, there's no need for a special vindictive deal for us.

    btw, I don't actually want Brexit to be an economic disaster and I don't expect imminent catastrophe, although a cliff edge WTO fallback might change that. A successful UK economy sustaining demand for iScottish goods and services would be better for all. However, I think it will lead to a long term decline in both economic performance and social conditions in the UK. I think it would be a huge mistake to tie our (Scotland's) colours to that mast.
    I think you may be slightly overplaying the BB part and the position that the UK will take in negotiations but even if taking your liberal interpretation as true who therefore is the protectionist party in those negotiations?

    Who does all of these extensive and convoluted tariffs that the EU implement on the rest of the globe benefit? Food tariffs and the CAP are a great example of where the EU significantly increases costs to it citizens, some estimates put food costs as 15-20% higher than global market prices.

    Tariffs restrict trade and raise prices...if we really wanted a more fair and equal society we should be looking to remove these restrictions on trade and the protectionism provided to the lobbying self interests. That would be a truly open and inclusive outlook not just to Europe but to the rest of the world as well.

    A brief article on EU the EU tariff madness can be found here: http://www.cityam.com/251648/eus-mad...import-tariffs

    And if you can be bothered a wee look at the EUTariffs website is really quite mind boggling!

  19. #1908
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Which piece of local election literature is this on?

    Nothing about it here.

    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.ne...pdf?1492769664
    It's a direct quote from Nicola on the launch of the SNP local election manifesto...I'll ask her to print it on a wee bit of paper if that's what you need?

  20. #1909
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    Sturgeon launch the local manifesto says:

    "The council elections are a clear choice between the SNP who stand for strong and vibrant local communities - and a Tory party which has become a single-issue, Brexit-at-all-costs machine"


    Davidson days:

    "We have two key points to make at this election. After 10 years of SNP centralisation, we want to make the case for localism - so decisions are put back in the hands of your local community.

    ďAnd, after a decade of constitutional division, we want to send a message to the SNP: we donít want your unwanted independence referendum."




    Doesn't look too dissimilar approach to me...
    I Harley (listen to) Davidson these days.
    She hit her peak a Indy1. Alas, she's now just another blethering skate.

  21. #1910
    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    I think you may be slightly overplaying the BB part and the position that the UK will take in negotiations but even if taking your liberal interpretation as true who therefore is the protectionist party in those negotiations?

    Who does all of these extensive and convoluted tariffs that the EU implement on the rest of the globe benefit? Food tariffs and the CAP are a great example of where the EU significantly increases costs to it citizens, some estimates put food costs as 15-20% higher than global market prices.

    Tariffs restrict trade and raise prices...if we really wanted a more fair and equal society we should be looking to remove these restrictions on trade and the protectionism provided to the lobbying self interests. That would be a truly open and inclusive outlook not just to Europe but to the rest of the world as well.

    A brief article on EU the EU tariff madness can be found here: http://www.cityam.com/251648/eus-mad...import-tariffs

    And if you can be bothered a wee look at the EUTariffs website is really quite mind boggling!
    Fine, I don't feel remotely qualified to comment tbh. (Yeah, yeah, doesn't usually stop me etc.)

    The point was that you can hardly go around espousing Brexit as a great idea for the UK because it will remove all tariffs and then say, ah, but you Scots will lose 60+% of your export market and hundreds of thousands of jobs because Brexit UK will impose punitive tariffs on iScotland.

  22. #1911
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    It's a direct quote from Nicola on the launch of the SNP local election manifesto...I'll ask her to print it on a wee bit of paper if that's what you need?
    It's not really the same though is it.

    We were discussing local election literature, not some soundbite.

  23. #1912
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    Why concentrate solely on existing settlements would be my answer when there is so much scope in Scotland to build new cities and towns with innovative architecture and a move away from Glasgow and Edinburgh domination. There's many benefits to massive expansion bringing new opportunities and additional benefits such as job creation, eradicating homelessness and driving down house prices etc.

    It does require vision and drive but its certainly doable in what is a vastly underpopulated landscape.

    I've just about made all the points I can make on this topic now but I'm sure most folk might agree there is certainly scope and benefits for most in undertaking huge expansion of Scotland.

    glory glory
    All this rubbish about developing under populated landscapes got me doing some research, this is connected to my occupation so it wasn't difficult.

    The urban landscape accounts for 10.6% of England, 1.9% of Scotland, 3.6% of Northern Ireland and 4.1% of Wales.

    Put another way, that means almost 93% of the UK is not urban. But even that isn't the end of the story because urban is not the same as built on.

    In urban England, for example, the researchers found that just over half the land (54%) in our towns and cities is greenspace - parks, allotments, sports pitches and so on.

    Furthermore, domestic gardens account for another 18% of urban land use; rivers, canals, lakes and reservoirs an additional 6.6%.

    Their conclusion?

    In England, "78.6% of urban areas is designated as natural rather than built". Since urban only covers a tenth of the country, this means that the proportion of England's landscape which is built on isÖ


    Ö 2.27%.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

    So, even in urban areas, there are large swathes not built upon, lets fill in the gaps before we think about desecrating the rural landscapes.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  24. #1913
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    All this rubbish about developing under populated landscapes got me doing some research, this is connected to my occupation so it wasn't difficult.



    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18623096

    So, even in urban areas, there are large swathes not built upon, lets fill in the gaps before we think about desecrating the rural landscapes.
    There is no doubting Scotland is a vastly underpopulated country compared to its landscape. We could easily accommodate an increase of around 2-3 million extra folk in new urban cities across this country whereby eradicating homelessness, welcoming folk from all over the world and vastly decrease the overpriced housing market especially for younger folk to access.

    Might not be to everyone's liking but is visionary and doable.

    glory glory

  25. #1914
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    There is no doubting Scotland is a vastly underpopulated country compared to its landscape. We could easily accommodate an increase of around 2-3 million extra folk in new urban cities across this country whereby eradicating homelessness, welcoming folk from all over the world and vastly decrease the overpriced housing market especially for younger folk to access.

    Might not be to everyone's liking but is visionary and doable.

    glory glory
    Give it a rest. you cannot support anything you have said about this utopian vision of yours. For starters where do you propose this vision of yours should be built? Who will build it?

    Building houses does not eradicate homelessness. #justsaying

    Scotland has a population density of 67.2/km2

    By your logic, you should be building in Greenland, population density less than 1/km2
    Last edited by Golden Fleece; 21-04-2017 at 03:02 PM.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  26. #1915
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    Quote Originally Posted by marinello59 View Post
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    I would guess that over the course of a few years every single political party will have the same proportion of 'bad eggs.' In that regard the SNP are no better or worse than any other party.
    Agree completely.

  27. #1916
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiMar View Post
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    It's a direct quote from Nicola on the launch of the SNP local election manifesto...I'll ask her to print it on a wee bit of paper if that's what you need?
    Hes gathering intel for his work.

  28. #1917
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    Quote Originally Posted by northstandhibby View Post
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    There is no doubting Scotland is a vastly underpopulated country compared to its landscape. We could easily accommodate an increase of around 2-3 million extra folk in new urban cities across this country whereby eradicating homelessness, welcoming folk from all over the world and vastly decrease the overpriced housing market especially for younger folk to access.

    Might not be to everyone's liking but is visionary and doable.

    glory glory
    I'm less in the "build it and they will come" camp and more for the "let's wait and see who comes then build" camp.

  29. #1918
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronaldo7 View Post
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    Your continuing line is starting to bore me now, so much so, that I've decided to post a photo of you and yer mrs each time it's mentioned.

    nashmurray.jpg

    You really need to brush up on your politics though.
    Im gonna wear that jacket to Hampden tomorrow...

  30. #1919
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Hes gathering intel for his work.
    nicebutdim.jpg

  31. #1920
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Im gonna wear that jacket to Hampden tomorrow...
    Your match is on Sunday.

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