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  1. #1
    Coaching Staff Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    What? An 80 fine for a life?

    Ms Chapple, of Speers Road, Leicester, admitted a charge of opening a vehicle door so as to injure or endanger another person.

    The "other person", a cyclist, died.

    What am I missing?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-39157452


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  3. #2
    @hibs.net private member Speedy's Avatar
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    Sounds like an accident?

  4. #3
    It's a difficult one. I cycle to work every day and this happens on a fairly regular basis. It's annoying, but clearly an accident. Not sure what humanity gains by chucking a guy in prison for making a mistake, living with it is probably punishment enough.

  5. #4
    I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag... Sir David Gray's Avatar
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    The article doesn't make it clear whether she saw the cyclist and then the door was opened deliberately in order to knock him off his bike. If that's the case then the punishment is completely out of order.

    Something tells me that this was an accident though and she was just being careless, in which case I can see why a fine was deemed more appropriate.
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    @hibs.net private member danhibees1875's Avatar
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    The opening paragraph in this thread (lifted from the article) may be being misleading I think.

    There is a severe lack of facts in the article so it's impossible to say, but I would imagine the punishment was made to fit the crime - so it must have been a genuine accident with mitigating circumstances.
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  7. #6
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    There's not a lot of detail in the story but I'd say that the charge of "opening a vehicle door so as to injure or endanger another person" instead of "involuntary manslaughter" played a major role in the sentencing.

  8. #7
    Coaching Staff Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    The words "so as to" suggest it was a deliberate act. If it was an accident, why was she fined at all? Very strange.
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  9. #8
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    The words "so as to" suggest it was a deliberate act. If it was an accident, why was she fined at all? Very strange.
    From the sparse information available it could be argued that a charge of involuntary manslaughter should have been applied. Surely it's obvious to everyone that opening a door into moving traffic could pose a danger to others. In this case tragically that was the result.

  10. #9
    Coaching Staff lyonhibs's Avatar
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    I'm confused as to the circumstances that would lead to a taxi being in a physical location to allow this to happen.

    Surely the lady was opening the kerbside door ?! Unless she's got rocks for brains that is.

  11. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by lyonhibs View Post
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    I'm confused as to the circumstances that would lead to a taxi being in a physical location to allow this to happen.

    Surely the lady was opening the kerbside door ?! Unless she's got rocks for brains that is.
    Lost count of the times passengers got out of my taxi on the wrong side stepping out into traffic, despite being asked not to.

  12. #11
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    Ms Chapple, of Speers Road, Leicester, admitted a charge of opening a vehicle door so as to injure or endanger another person.

    The "other person", a cyclist, died.

    What am I missing?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-39157452
    From a legal aspect, I think the moment the door is opened and the cyclist sees the problem, HE is then responsible for HIS actions. Is he too close to the car, is he travelling too fast to stop, is it "better" perhaps to run into the door rather than avoid it by swerving, can he move safely into the lane at his side to avoid the door without endangering himself and others? All these things have to be considered too. She didn't kill him. He was killed by the van he swerved in front of. She wasn't fined 80 pounds for that, she was fined for opening the door carelessly I assume. It was, by all accounts, an accident. Tragic for all concerned.

    If she "did it deliberately", of course, that then would be another matter.

  13. #12
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    From a legal aspect, I think the moment the door is opened and the cyclist sees the problem, HE is then responsible for HIS actions.
    I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly but I don't think a cyclist can be responsible for their actions from the point after a door of a parked vehicle is opened in to their path.
    I say this based on an "accident" I was involved with, as a passenger, whereby a parked vehicle opened their door fully causing the van I was in to collide and cause significant damage to both vehicles as well as two others.
    The police were involved and it went to court, in the end, the person that opened the door was found liable for all damage.

  14. #13
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly but I don't think a cyclist can be responsible for their actions from the point after a door of a parked vehicle is opened in to their path.
    I say this based on an "accident" I was involved with, as a passenger, whereby a parked vehicle opened their door fully causing the van I was in to collide and cause significant damage to both vehicles as well as two others.
    The police were involved and it went to court, in the end, the person that opened the door was found liable for all damage.
    Agreed, it's like saying someone who throws a brick/smoke bomb in a crowd is no longer responsible for what happens after the missile leaves his hand, it's up to everyone to get out of the way otherwise they are responsible if they get hit.

  15. #14
    @hibs.net private member Speedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    Agreed, it's like saying someone who throws a brick/smoke bomb in a crowd is no longer responsible for what happens after the missile leaves his hand, it's up to everyone to get out of the way otherwise they are responsible if they get hit.
    It's not really though, is it?

    More like saying that when a car brakes in front of you, you are responsible for not crashing into the back of it.

  16. #15
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speedy View Post
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    It's not really though, is it?

    More like saying that when a car brakes in front of you, you are responsible for not crashing into the back of it.
    The taxi was obviously stationary. I'd agree with you if he'd swerved to avoid it but he didn't, he swerved to avoid an object (the door) that was opened in his line of direction that was previously free of obstacles. If someone ignored his right of way at a junction or traffic lights, would he also be at fault for not being able to stop in time?
    Last edited by Hibrandenburg; 05-03-2017 at 10:45 PM.

  17. #16
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly but I don't think a cyclist can be responsible for their actions from the point after a door of a parked vehicle is opened in to their path.
    I say this based on an "accident" I was involved with, as a passenger, whereby a parked vehicle opened their door fully causing the van I was in to collide and cause significant damage to both vehicles as well as two others.
    The police were involved and it went to court, in the end, the person that opened the door was found liable for all damage.
    This is how the law understands the situation as far as I know (I'm not a lawyer, but my lawyer friends say this is the case - at least here in Germany ) and this is why the fine is as it is.

    Why wouldn't a cyclist not be responsible for his actions in reacting to an event on the road, aren't all road users responsible for their actions? "Things" happen on the road ... a taxi stops at a rail station: what could possibly happen next? The van driver enters the rail station, sees the taxi, the cyclist: what could happen next?

    If one person makes an initial mistake, it does not follow that everyone else does not bear any responsibility for what happens after that.

    The case you refer too is different, has no bearing on this particular one.

  18. #17
    Private Members Prediction League Winner Hibrandenburg's Avatar
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    So if a mother pushes her pram directly into your way when driving it's partly you're fault if you can't brake in time?

  19. #18
    @hibs.net private member Speedy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    The taxi was obviously stationary. I'd agree with you if he'd swerved to avoid it but he didn't, he swerved to avoid an object (the door) that was opened in his line of direction that was previously free of obstacles. If someone ignored his right of way at a junction or traffic lights, would he also be at fault for not being able to stop in time?
    Legally I'm not sure what the cyclist is responsible for in this scenario, people are suggesting different things. Either way, it's nothing like a smoke bomb.

    Hard one though because (in general) when you think about hazard perception you should take mitigating actions to reduce the risk of danger from another persons actions. A taxi that's just stopped, a child at the side of a road with a ball, or lights/junctions are all examples where you should slow down imo.

    That said, I don't have any specific knowledge of this incident.

  20. #19
    @hibs.net private member PeeJay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    So if a mother pushes her pram directly into your way when driving it's partly you're fault if you can't brake in time?



    Your responses involving bricks/smoke bombs and a mother with a pram bear no relation to the incident that actually happened and serve little purpose in its debate - the question was why the 80 pound fine in this tragic situation, where a life was lost. I think the points I raised reflect why this fine was issued. If the court's decision was reached for other reason and you know why, let us know ...




  21. #20
    Coaching Staff lyonhibs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Killiehibbie View Post
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    Lost count of the times passengers got out of my taxi on the wrong side stepping out into traffic, despite being asked not to.
    So it's the rocks for brains then is it?

    A cautionary tale if ever there was one. Who'd get out of a taxi on the moving traffic side FFS 😫

  22. #21
    @hibs.net private member overdrive's Avatar
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    An interesting bit of case law in cases like this involved John Burridge. Yes, the John Burridge that played for us. It was held here that a cyclist shouldn't have to anticipate that a car door might open.

  23. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PeeJay View Post
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    This is how the law understands the situation as far as I know (I'm not a lawyer, but my lawyer friends say this is the case - at least here in Germany ) and this is why the fine is as it is.

    Why wouldn't a cyclist not be responsible for his actions in reacting to an event on the road, aren't all road users responsible for their actions? "Things" happen on the road ... a taxi stops at a rail station: what could possibly happen next? The van driver enters the rail station, sees the taxi, the cyclist: what could happen next?

    If one person makes an initial mistake, it does not follow that everyone else does not bear any responsibility for what happens after that.

    The case you refer too is different, has no bearing on this particular one.
    I'm no lawyer either but this does sound a bit Jeremy Clarckson. You only have a split second to react when a car door opens and it's human instinct to get out the way. The law would have a small amount of logic if the cyclist had a chance to asses their options but it often won't be the case, and even then it's a bit harsh to force someone to decide between being run over or crashing in to a car door.

    Over here, cyclists are advised (but doubt it's a legal requirement) to stay over a doors width of parked cars. This isn't always possible on narrow streets though and it's also annoying for drivers behind that want to overtake.
    Last edited by Holmesdale Hibs; 06-03-2017 at 09:02 PM.

  24. #23
    @hibs.net private member lord bunberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lyonhibs View Post
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    So it's the rocks for brains then is it?

    A cautionary tale if ever there was one. Who'd get out of a taxi on the moving traffic side FFS 😫
    People who come from countries that drive on right tend to be the worst offenders, it must just be a habit for them.
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  25. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by lord bunberry View Post
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    People who come from countries that drive on right tend to be the worst offenders, it must just be a habit for them.
    Not very many foreign visitors through here.

  26. #25
    @hibs.net private member Steve-O's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    The words "so as to" suggest it was a deliberate act. If it was an accident, why was she fined at all? Very strange.
    Because it was careless. Like careless driving.

    I think the wording of the charge is bizarre right enough though.

  27. #26
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    Time to adopt the "Dutch reach" perhaps.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ne...lives-cycling/

  28. #27
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haagsehibby View Post
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    Time to adopt the "Dutch reach" perhaps.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ne...lives-cycling/
    I work for a company that has one of the biggest vehicle fleets in the country. As it is one of our biggest daily risks we underwent some driver training with ex-traffic policeman. This was one of the few useful things I learnt that day but have to admit I don't always employ that technique.

  29. #28
    Coaching Staff Hibbyradge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by haagsehibby View Post
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    Time to adopt the "Dutch reach" perhaps.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/ne...lives-cycling/
    That's good. It'll be hard to get into the habit, but I'll try.
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  30. #29
    @hibs.net private member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibbyradge View Post
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    That's good. It'll be hard to get into the habit, but I'll try.
    After living in NL for 20+ years it's second nature to me now. Does take a bit of getting used to though.

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