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  1. #91
    @hibs.net private member Hibernia&Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I'm not so sure that McGuinness went through the transformation because of a change of philosophy like is being widely depicted. The IRA were militarily on the verge of defeat and were also under massive political pressure to end their campaign.

    There's a good chance and an argument to be made that both Adams and McGuinness embraced the peace process for reasons of self preservation.
    From what I've read, the situation in the early nineties was more one of stalemate, with no prospect of a final military solution on any side, hence the change of tactic. It certainly wasn't an epiphany towards pacifism within Republicanism, but a recognition of the reality of the situation: armed struggle could go on indefinitely without any progress towards a united Ireland.
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  3. #92
    Ireland's Greatest Import Mr White's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    From what I've read, the situation in the early nineties was more one of stalemate, with no prospect of a final military solution on any side, hence the change of tactic. It certainly wasn't an epiphany towards pacifism within Republicanism, but a recognition of the reality of the situation: armed struggle could go on indefinitely without any progress towards a united Ireland.
    They also managed to negotiate some fairly far reaching aspects within the peace agreement for a movement on the verge of military defeat.

  4. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    How would an apology have been taken? I'm sure that those people who hated him would have dismissed it as empty rhetoric.

    As an aside, as I don't know....did Nelson Mandela apologise for the actions of the ANC?

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    Another terrorist, depending on which way you want to look at it.

  5. #94
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinNish View Post
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    Another terrorist, depending on which way you want to look at it.
    If I saw Mandela as a terrorist, that would give me something in common with the apartheid government of the time.

  6. #95
    @hibs.net private member ronaldo7's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibrandenburg View Post
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    I'm not so sure that McGuinness went through the transformation because of a change of philosophy like is being widely depicted. The IRA were militarily on the verge of defeat and were also under massive political pressure to end their campaign.

    There's a good chance and an argument to be made that both Adams and McGuinness embraced the peace process for reasons of self preservation.
    They certainly had enough arms to keep it going. They'd been infiltrated by the spooks, and it sort of spooked them.

    De-commissioning of arms took some years.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/...rthernireland1

  7. #96
    Testimonial Due Vini1875's Avatar
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    RIP. Fought for his people in war and peace

  8. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by BullsCloseHibs View Post
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    Just heard Tebbit on news, obviously having a cheap go at the deceased, but couldn't help himself ridiculing Blair in the process.

    Sore Tory LOSER.
    If your wife was paralysed by an IRA bomb and you were left scarred would you be any different?

    I would probably be less diplomatic.

  9. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Vini1875 View Post
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    RIP. Fought for his people in war and peace
    Not sure the many victims would say RIP.

    What we all need to remember is the environment he grew up in. Extremely difficult for many reasons. It's difficult for me brought up in the east of Scotland to understand the hatred they would have for the UK. I'm sure he and his generation would rather kill a protestant than shake their hand.

    Which makes what he did in later years more remarkable.

    RIP - no but he is a major reason why Northern Ireland is in peace at the moment.

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by steakbake View Post
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    If I saw Mandela as a terrorist, that would give me something in common with the apartheid government of the time.
    Good for you. 👏👏

  11. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by theonlywayisup View Post
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    If your wife was paralysed by an IRA bomb and you were left scarred would you be any different?

    I would probably be less diplomatic.
    I find it quite interesting hearing the differing views of victims of IRA attacks. Some, like Tebbit, have been clear in their views. Others have shown a remarkable ability to forgive.

    A few have been quite clear that Tebbit, his ingrained prejudices and all, don't represent them.
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  12. #101
    Jambo Kickback's Flump of the Year 2008 Sergey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pretty Boy View Post
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    I find it quite interesting hearing the differing views of victims of IRA attacks. Some, like Tebbit, have been clear in their views. Others have shown a remarkable ability to forgive.

    A few have been quite clear that Tebbit, his ingrained prejudices and all, don't represent them.


    Tebbit was a w***er of the highest order and the day I feel sympathy for that ilk is the day I finally lose the plot completely.

    BTW - the above statement is nothing to do with my ideals or feelings towards McGuinness and/or the PIRA - just my passing judgement of Tebbit.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]


  13. #102
    @hibs.net private member IWasThere2016's Avatar
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    I was at the Euros with a very good friend of his and ex-IRA 'high rank officer' Paddy Murtagh. Extraordinary stories told.

    I think PB sums it up nicely, these men changed and changed for the better obviously - but their crimes shouldn't be forgotten nor necessarily forgiven either.

  14. #103
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    Rest in Hell Mr McGuinness. I, along with the families who suffered at your hands will have a wee dram tonight.

    This

  15. #104
    Coaching Staff steakbake's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinNish View Post
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    Good for you. 👏👏
    They weren't exactly listening to reason and for sitting down for polite talks with the people they were brutally oppressing, but I suppose you would be too young to remember. Or at least that's the impression you give.
    Last edited by steakbake; Yesterday at 12:09 AM.

  16. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by BullsCloseHibs View Post
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    Just heard Tebbit on news, obviously having a cheap go at the deceased, but couldn't help himself ridiculing Blair in the process.

    Sore Tory LOSER.
    Well his wife was permanently disabled during the Brighton bombing, so from that point of view I can totally see where he's coming from, but at the same time I can't really think of any politicians I disliked more than Tebbit and Thatcher.

  17. #106
    @hibs.net private member greenlex's Avatar
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    Reading all these posts my overriding feeling is how absolutely stupid and ultimately futile armed struggle over diplomacy is. God forbid Scotlands Sons and Daughters ever thought that the bullet over the ballot box was the answer to their political and social beliefs.

  18. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by greenlex View Post
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    Reading all these posts my overriding feeling is how absolutely stupid and ultimately futile armed struggle over diplomacy is. God forbid Scotlands Sons and Daughters ever thought that the bullet over the ballot box was the answer to their political and social beliefs.
    Not really. The sad thing is that history often shows that it often takes both to effect social change.

  19. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by greenlex View Post
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    Reading all these posts my overriding feeling is how absolutely stupid and ultimately futile armed struggle over diplomacy is. God forbid Scotlands Sons and Daughters ever thought that the bullet over the ballot box was the answer to their political and social beliefs.
    Meh, have to agree to an extent, however in some instances the ballot box wasn't an option due to voting regulations

  20. #109
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenlex View Post
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    Reading all these posts my overriding feeling is how absolutely stupid and ultimately futile armed struggle over diplomacy is. God forbid Scotlands Sons and Daughters ever thought that the bullet over the ballot box was the answer to their political and social beliefs.
    Not sure that history would agree on its futility. Whilst diplomacy is often the end result, it can take violence and intimidation of the perceived oppressor to get to that stage.

    That's what happened in NI, in South Africa, in Israel and in many other situations throughout history.

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  21. #110
    Testimonial Due Colr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hibernia&Alba View Post
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    From what I've read, the situation in the early nineties was more one of stalemate, with no prospect of a final military solution on any side, hence the change of tactic. It certainly wasn't an epiphany towards pacifism within Republicanism, but a recognition of the reality of the situation: armed struggle could go on indefinitely without any progress towards a united Ireland.
    But isn't it interesting that, as a result of an English ballot preference for Brexit, Ireland is now closer to unification than its been since it was partitioned?

    If NI hadn't had the experience of economic growth following the peace deal, I doubt the debate would have been framred in terms of well being but in terms of factionalism.

  22. #111
    @hibs.net private member greenlex's Avatar
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    Perhaps the word I was looking for was waste.

  23. #112
    @hibs.net private member CropleyWasGod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenlex View Post
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    Perhaps the word I was looking for was waste.
    Yeah, it's fair comment.

    But, the same is said about any war. Do the ends justify the "waste"?

    That's a 100-pager in itself.

  24. #113
    I only want to say the Scottish Cup is in the bag... Sir David Gray's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CropleyWasGod View Post
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    How would an apology have been taken? I'm sure that those people who hated him would have dismissed it as empty rhetoric.

    As an aside, as I don't know....did Nelson Mandela apologise for the actions of the ANC?

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    People who are fundamentally opposed to something or someone will always find a reason to criticise. If McGuinness had ever apologised for his involvement with the IRA then that particular criticism could not have been levelled at him.

    However not only did McGuinness never apologise for his involvement with the IRA, little over a year ago he actually said he was proud of his past involvement within the IRA.

    I think that tells you a lot about the man. He and Gerry Adams have innocent blood on their hands and the least they could have done was apologise for their part they personally played in the IRA's campaign of terrorist attacks. The fact that we've got people on here having digs at Lord Tebbit for being critical of McGuinness after what happened to him and his wife in the Brighton Bombing is quite incredible.
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