New left back coming in

[HoboHarry]

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Griffiths.

Que? Did we ever have LG on a full time contract?

[Marco G]

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Que? Did we ever have LG on a full time contract?

Que is right. Sounds like folk think if you take someone on loan he is your player? We never developed him or had him signed, though am delighted he played for us obviously!

[silverhibee]

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Que? Did we ever have LG on a full time contract?

I thought we had Griffiths as a youngster.

[Marco G]

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I thought we had Griffiths as a youngster.

Two seasons on loan from Wolves, when he was already 21.

[HoboHarry]

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I thought we had Griffiths as a youngster.

Never heard that before. He made his Livingston debut at the age of 16.....

[Marco G]

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Never heard that before. He made his Livingston debut at the age of 16.....

.... and Leith Athletic before that.

[hibbysam]

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Does anyone know how young Sean Mackie is getting on at Berwick Rangers- think his loan is up in January. Still only 18 but wonder how he is doing.

I don't think he has played since damaging his knee early on this season. Has turned out a few times for the 20s and I think he has been on the bench the last few weeks for Berwick. Injury came at exactly the wrong time for him but he has worked his backside off to get back to full fitness.

[silverhibee]

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Two seasons on loan from Wolves, when he was already 21.

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Never heard that before. He made his Livingston debut at the age of 16.....

MG, I meant as a young kid.

I thought we had him in as a youth, seems I'm wrong.

I can rule out Griffiths.

[Smartie]

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MG, I meant as a young kid.

I thought we had him in as a youth, seems I'm wrong.

I can rule out Griffiths.

I was sure we had Griffiths as a kid.

I seem to remember a tale about him getting emptied in his early teens for being a total bam.

[monktonharp]

I'd have prefered a solid experienced left back as cover, or more! someone that could challenge and pressurise our current.Lewis can also play more of a midfield role if reqd. Gunnerson, the big Norwegian? he had a few excellent performances for us, scored a great goal and did his bit in the final. wished we had pushed to get him for a year or so. good player, and dependable. I think he played both positions as full back, but was a loss this season as well as the obvious other 2 loans.

[NadeAteMyLunch!]

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I'd have prefered a solid experienced left back as cover, or more! someone that could challenge and pressurise our current.Lewis can also play more of a midfield role if reqd. Gunnerson, the big Norwegian? he had a few excellent performances for us, scored a great goal and did his bit in the final. wished we had pushed to get him for a year or so. good player, and dependable. I think he played both positions as full back, but was a loss this season as well as the obvious other 2 loans.

We offered him a three year deal but he turned it down as he didn't want to be a squad player at this stage of his career. Was reported earlier this month. Shame as he showed real glimpses of quality at times.

[Tyler Durden]

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With a limitless budget so would I be as I would be with any other position in the team, but the budget isn't limitless and I think could be better spent elsewhere.

Lewis is IMO a very good left back certainly at SPL & Championship level, I have never seen him get a real roasting, I would agree he is a far less able wing back.

If we are changing him, why not change Gray where there is no adequate cover and who is IMO no better from a distribution point of view.

Playing 3 5 2 doesn't IMO work in the packed defences of the Championship where most teams come to ER and sit camped on the edge of their own box.

There just isn't the space to get crosses in without trying to beat your man and that isn't either Gray or Stevenson's forte.

I would prefer we spent the budget on more forward thinking players and left the full backs to primarily defend.

Jobs for which they are IMO both better suited than playing as wingbacks

Even if playing as full backs in a back 4 their role is no longer to primarily defend. Not in any league but certainly not playing for the biggest team in this league.

Signing an effective left sided player would be my number one priority.

We missed plenty of chances against Raith but in a number of recent games we struggled to create and Stevensons performances were a major part of that. If it's clear that Crane not get a chance then Stevenson needs some competition at the very least. His output this season has been nowhere near as good as previous 2 years IMO.

[Marco G]

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Even if playing as full backs in a back 4 their role is no longer to primarily defend. Not in any league but certainly not playing for the biggest team in this league.

Signing an effective left sided player would be my number one priority.

We missed plenty of chances against Raith but in a number of recent games we struggled to create and Stevensons performances were a major part of that. If it's clear that Crane not get a chance then Stevenson needs some competition at the very least. His output this season has been nowhere near as good as previous 2 years IMO.

Feel that Lewis gets a bit of a raw deal sometimes here! His crosses are generally OK (I watch plenty EPL games where the overlapping fullback pings it across to no one in particular) and it aint easy to pick someone out against a packed defence. Where he has struggled recently imo is going past his man rather than turning back. If we can get someone in who gets to the bye line, (whether they are called a full back or a winger!), then lets do it.

[Tyler Durden]

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Feel that Lewis gets a bit of a raw deal sometimes here! His crosses are generally OK (I watch plenty EPL games where the overlapping fullback pings it across to no one in particular) and it aint easy to pick someone out against a packed defence. Where he has struggled recently imo is going past his man rather than turning back. If we can get someone in who gets to the bye line, (whether they are called a full back or a winger!), then lets do it.

It's one of the main differences between Gray and Lewis for me, the latters refusal to take a man on. Gray will get into a 1 vs 1 and knock it past his man quite often, getting to the bye line. Lewis invariably turns back and passes inside.

I'm not slating Lewis at all, just think we need a more capable attacking full back in this league.

[Marco G]

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It's one of the main differences between Gray and Lewis for me, the latters refusal to take a man on. Gray will get into a 1 vs 1 and knock it past his man quite often, getting to the bye line. Lewis invariably turns back and passes inside.

I'm not slating Lewis at all, just think we need a more capable attacking full back in this league.

Agree that could give us the edge we need. Much better chances come from cut backs than slow recycling.

[The Leith Dutch]

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You shouldn't be.At the AGM Lennon was asked specifically about Crane and was quite candid ,saying that when the opportunity presented itself Crane wasn't showing in training.That's just as it should be.

Exactly.

While I'm happy enough to see young players given a chance we most certainly should not be doing it "just to see".
We're in a title race and we don't have the luxury of seeing what shakes out or treating the young players in a certain way.
Young players get in the team because they bang the door down in training week in week out with performances.
From what you say Crane isn't doing that so he doesn't play.

The attitude towards young players on here reflects the wider problem that any player that doesn't currently play for us (young player, player we let go, player we could have signed, opposition player who has a good game against us etc..etc...) is viewed as a world beater because things are not going as anyone would like it for us.

Said it before but the current squad is better than any other squad in the league - and disagreeing with that someone would logically have to name another team in the division who they'd trade all our players for all that teams players.

The problem is the results are not nearly good enough.

[indiejak1413]

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Exactly.

While I'm happy enough to see young players given a chance we most certainly should not be doing it "just to see".
We're in a title race and we don't have the luxury of seeing what shakes out or treating the young players in a certain way.
Young players get in the team because they bang the door down in training week in week out with performances.
From what you say Crane isn't doing that so he doesn't play.

The attitude towards young players on here reflects the wider problem that any player that doesn't currently play for us (young player, player we let go, player we could have signed, opposition player who has a good game against us etc..etc...) is viewed as a world beater because things are not going as anyone would like it for us.

Said it before but the current squad is better than any other squad in the league - and disagreeing with that someone would logically have to name another team in the division who they'd trade all our players for all that teams players.

The problem is the results are not nearly good enough.

So what's the point of having a youth system. Olly Shaw bangs in the goals regularly could he get a chance in the 1st team....no. Martin and Crane cruise the development games week in week out and Martin gets a chance because of an injury crisis. The minute the injured lads are fit again Martin will be dropped. Now the club are giving a trial to a guy the same age as Crane untested just like Crane but won't come cheap after playing for a premiership club. Better off developing the guy getting £250 a week.

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[Marco G]

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So what's the point of having a youth system. Olly Shaw bangs in the goals regularly could he get a chance in the 1st team....no. Martin and Crane cruise the development games week in week out and Martin gets a chance because of an injury crisis. The minute the injured lads are fit again Martin will be dropped. Now the club are giving a trial to a guy the same age as Crane untested just like Crane but won't come cheap after playing for a premiership club. Better off developing the guy getting £250 a week.

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The point is if and when they are good enough they will get a game. If they are not yet ready they will be getting all the input needed to make the step up. If we give a trial to someone from outside the club the manager and coaches are only doing it cause they know we dont have a better option inside the club. Not many from a youth system make it. We should be encouraged that we do have some good prospects and if they dont make it it will be their own fault, not the club's fault imo.

[WhileTheChief..]

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So what's the point of having a youth system.
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Good question. I'd say none.

Waste of resources. We train up some young boys who fancy a game of football. A few years later we release them or loan them out and rarely hear about them again.

I've no idea how our youth system works but I'd imagine there are probably dozens of lads involved each year and once in a blue moon you'll get a player good enough for the first team that might add value to our club both in performances and a transfer fee.

My gut feeling is that whatever we spend on youth should be spent on getting first team players in. Let other teams do the youth development then sign them. Think McGinn.

[The Leith Dutch]

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So what's the point of having a youth system.

I don't necessarily know that we should have a youth system but if we do we certainly shouldn't be taking chances with the first team to validate having one. There was an article recently that was a coach in England arguing against clubs having their own youth systems as not being very cost effective so there are theories that maybe it isn't the right way to go?

Not saying we drop it but it may be something that's had it's day for teams at a certain level which, regrettably, we and Scottish football in general now are.

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Olly Shaw bangs in the goals regularly could he get a chance in the 1st team....no. Martin and Crane cruise the development games week in week out and Martin gets a chance because of an injury crisis. The minute the injured lads are fit again Martin will be dropped.

Martin will obviously be dropped - correct decision imo as McGinn, McGeough and Fyvie play a similar game to him and based on what I've seen of Martin he's a tidy player with good energy but not anywhere near at the standard of those players yet.

It sounds very like Crane is not showing enough in training both from posts on here and the fact that we put Hanlon at LB when Stevenson was out.

Shaw I'd probably suggest should have had a chance as it's a lot easier to blood young strikers with 5-10 minutes at the end when a game is won (I think we do still win games ;) ) so he should have been on the bench. That said - we've had a *lot* of strikers over the years who have scored a ton of goals at youth and development level who weren't capable of making the step up.

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Now the club are giving a trial to a guy the same age as Crane untested just like Crane but won't come cheap after playing for a premiership club. Better off developing the guy getting £250 a week.

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While I'm not saying the Sunderland guy will be any good I'd disagree with the last sentence - this is not a season to develop players. It's a season we want players to go in and do a job at a very good level (at least by the standards of this league).
Of course whether the players we have or the players we're looking at can do that is a whole different kettle of fish ;)

[Andy74]

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So what's the point of having a youth system. Olly Shaw bangs in the goals regularly could he get a chance in the 1st team....no. Martin and Crane cruise the development games week in week out and Martin gets a chance because of an injury crisis. The minute the injured lads are fit again Martin will be dropped. Now the club are giving a trial to a guy the same age as Crane untested just like Crane but won't come cheap after playing for a premiership club. Better off developing the guy getting £250 a week.

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It should maybe be noted that Shaw has struggled to get a game on loan to Stenhousemuir. He should have had a chance in our first team instead?

[where'stheslope]

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The point is if and when they are good enough they will get a game. If they are not yet ready they will be getting all the input needed to make the step up. If we give a trial to someone from outside the club the manager and coaches are only doing it cause they know we dont have a better option inside the club. Not many from a youth system make it. We should be encouraged that we do have some good prospects and if they dont make it it will be their own fault, not the club's fault imo.

Sorry, but the statement is flawed!

In any other season youngsters would get a game in the first team in this league, but as it is not going as well as everyone hoped it tried and tested only!

The biggest problem is, when we go up the same youngsters have had no experience in the Championship and would have to be blooded in the Premiership?

A flourishing youth system is what every team aims for, as it keeps a cheap turnover of good young starlets and saves spending on imported players that then have to fit into the team.

Homegrown youngsters are brought through the ranks so as they are already up to speed on team tactics and team formations!!!!

[Andy74]

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Sorry, but the statement is flawed!

In any other season youngsters would get a game in the first team in this league, but as it is not going as well as everyone hoped it tried and tested only!

The biggest problem is, when we go up the same youngsters have had no experience in the Championship and would have to be blooded in the Premiership?

A flourishing youth system is what every team aims for, as it keeps a cheap turnover of good young starlets and saves spending on imported players that then have to fit into the team.

Homegrown youngsters are brought through the ranks so as they are already up to speed on team tactics and team formations!!!!

No, that's flawed.

If the same youngsters couldn't get a game in this league they won't get one in the league above for us.

As the post you quoted said players will get a game when they are deemed good enough not just to tick a box for playing a young player.

St Johnstone have shown it doesn't really make much odds if you do t produce players if you instead manage to fund the first team to keep brining in players you want.

Now if you had a youth system that always produced top players and also made you a fortune when you sold them then great but Ibthink that's something that takes time to sort when it hasn't been working for some time.

[The Leith Dutch]

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Sorry, but the statement is flawed!

In any other season youngsters would get a game in the first team in this league, but as it is not going as well as everyone hoped it tried and tested only!

The biggest problem is, when we go up the same youngsters have had no experience in the Championship and would have to be blooded in the Premiership?

A flourishing youth system is what every team aims for, as it keeps a cheap turnover of good young starlets and saves spending on imported players that then have to fit into the team.

Homegrown youngsters are brought through the ranks so as they are already up to speed on team tactics and team formations!!!!

I think that's back to front - the youth system exists to service the first team (either with back up players or, when things go well, a player that makes the step up). It serves a secondary function to hopefully provide the club with income from player sales.

It's a gamble though. You can do better with skilled youth scouts and good development practice and facilities but at the end of the day it's a roll of the dice. Sometimes you get Riordan, Brown, Thompson, O'Connor and Whitaker all coming through at once. Sometimes you get nobody to make the step up and you do something similar by buying the likes of McGinn and Allan (albeit the latter was a little older but given the small number of games he was practically a youth player).

At the moment the fact stands that we can't afford to gamble - we need 3 points in the vast majority of the remaining 18 league games.

[J-C]

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No, that's flawed.

If the sane youngsters couldn't get a game in this league they won't get one in the league above for us.

As the post you quoted said players will get a game when they are deemed good enough not just to tick a box for playing a young player.

St Johnstone have shown it doesn't really make much odds if you do t produce players if you instead manage to fund the first team to keep brining in players you want.

Now if you had a youth system that always produced top players and also made you a fortune when you sold them then great but Ibthink that's something that takes time to sort when it hasn't been working for some time.

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I think that's back to front - the youth system exists to service the first team (either with back up players or, when things go well, a player that makes the step up). It serves a secondary function to hopefully provide the club with income from player sales.

It's a gamble though. You can do better with skilled youth scouts and good development practice and facilities but at the end of the day it's a roll of the dice. Sometimes you get Riordan, Brown, Thompson, O'Connor and Whitaker all coming through at once. Sometimes you get nobody to make the step up and you do something similar by buying the likes of McGinn and Allan (albeit the latter was a little older but given the small number of games he was practically a youth player).

At the moment the fact stands that we can't afford to gamble - we need 3 points in the vast majority of the remaining 18 league games.

Young Martin has shown in the 2 games he's started that he has enough about him to at least give him more games than he already has, Crane likewise.

I don't think anyone is calling for all young players to play regularly but if they are capable enough then get them in, Crane must've been gutted when Stevenson was out and Lennon chose Hanlon a CB instead of him, especially as he was told he'd be backup this season.

[ancient hibee]

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Young Martin has shown in the 2 games he's started that he has enough about him to at least give him more games than he already has, Crane likewise.

I don't think anyone is calling for all young players to play regularly but if they are capable enough then get them in, Crane must've been gutted when Stevenson was out and Lennon chose Hanlon a CB instead of him, especially as he was told he'd be backup this season.

Perhaps Crane thought he'd cracked it and didn't do the work in training?Martin is promising and energetic but not as good as the guys who are missing.

[Malthibby]

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Does anyone know how young Sean Mackie is getting on at Berwick Rangers- think his loan is up in January. Still only 18 but wonder how he is doing.

Or Lewis Allan?

[greenlex]

I am wondering why Lennon didn't play Crane in the Challenge cup when the opportunity rose. It must be difficult to train and look happy when you are overlooked in those circumstances. I think Lennons man management skills are not what they could be.

[StevieCowan]

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I am wondering why Lennon didn't play Crane in the Challenge cup when the opportunity rose. It must be difficult to train and look happy when you are overlooked in those circumstances. I think Lennons man management skills are not what they could be.

Or maybe he just thinks he isn't good enough and could cost us vital points.

Has Crane ever been close to any national team call up, how did he do at the clubs he has been on loan at and does he tear up the left wing and stand out at 20's.

[Big L]

I'm hearing Chris Humphreys ex Preston-Motherwell on his way to ER.