Crossing Across Enemy Lines

[Hi Heid Yin]

I remember very well my uncle Derek (a staunch Jambo) coming along to Easter Road to watch Hibs. I was a lad but remember the banter pre and post match between him and my dad and other uncles and grand dad. The pre-match ritual of dominoes and beer at a well known Easter Road pub set the scene and added to the excitement. I was restricted to coca cola by my dad, but my Uncle Derek gave me a sly wee shandy and introduced me to the man's world.

Such happy and innocent days, where fans could truly mingle on opened terracing.
I remember heading back down Easter Road for a pie supper at my grand parents - the top floor and only inhabited flat at 21 Bernard Street, Leith.
For a wee time way back in 1973/74 I got into the habit of watching Hibs one week and Hearts the next with my Jambo next door neighbour, Tam. I recall the 4-1 defeat of Hibs by Hearts- the first match at Tynie after the famous 7-0 and the delirium of not just my pal but the entire Jambo support - it was sweet revenge, so they thought, for the New Years day massacre.

Segregated seating and the social media have since invoked feelings of an us and them mentality and genuine hatred between both sets of supporters.

I find myself sighing at the changes I have witnessed in my lifetime. Maybe age (59 now) imbues a sense of nostalgia for "happier days"
The fact is that they were not always happier days. When I think of Rangers coming to visit in the early 70's my memories are of experiencing fear, anxiety and genuine hatred and bile from the Glasgow hordes - of stabbings and of rampaging fans on Easter Road.

[BSEJVT]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I had a season ticket for hearts back in the late 60s early 70s as a teenager. My Uncle Fred was a big Hibby (initially I think to spite my granddad who was Hearts through and through) and he would take me to the Hibs European games midweek. Looking back I think he made a few efforts to turn me to the dark side, but it wasn't uncommon in those days for people to go to both. As someone mentioned above most workplaces finished at 12 or 1 on Saturday so there was no way to get to most away games, also everyone went for a drink after work saturday so it was a natural to go to the game as well.

Genuinely interested in your view as to why things changed the way they did.

My dad who was Hibs daft happily went to Tynecastle week about and his mates who were Hearts Supporters went to ER

For me it was Mercer, Robinson & Romanov, pre them I had no problem with the back and forth banter that went along but even discounting Mercer's poisonous involvement from my perspective it became banal and insulting under the other two stooges.

I have to say though that far far too many of your fellow supporters couldn't wait to jump on that bandwagon.

You will probably disagree but I would say that many Hearts supporters lost the plot at that point and as in large part became a *******ised version of their lowest common denominating instincts.

I now absolutely detest Hearts and there are very few Hearts supporters I know that I would even bother discussing football with now let alone our respective teams merits. I would get more sense talking to the dog.

There is not the slightest chance that I would give Hearts a penny by going to watch them now whereas 25 years or so ago I may have went with my Hearts supporting mates of the day, not to support them but just to watch a game.

Maybe it is societal as Resident Arab tells a similar tale of the Dundee rivalry.

I certainly don't think the comics that masquerade as newspapers these days or the internet have helped matters and have indeed fanned the flames as have it has to be said football pundits who are more interested in overplaying their own roles and importance than relating the tale of the games they have watched and the background information they have gleaned that supporters used to pour over.

It probably doesn't help either that some of the imbeciles that are modern day footballers get far more air time then their abilities or intelligence merits and serve only to stir things up further.

[Bostonhibby]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Genuinely interested in your view as to why things changed the way they did.

My dad who was Hibs daft happily went to Tynecastle week about and his mates who were Hearts Supporters went to ER

For me it was Mercer, Robinson & Romanov, pre them I had no problem with the back and forth banter that went along but even discounting Mercer's poisonous involvement from my perspective it became banal and insulting under the other two stooges.

I have to say though that far far too many of your fellow supporters couldn't wait to jump on that bandwagon.

You will probably disagree but I would say that many Hearts supporters lost the plot at that point and as in large part became a *******ised version of their lowest common denominating instincts.

I now absolutely detest Hearts and there are very few Hearts supporters I know that I would even bother discussing football with now let alone our respective teams merits. I would get more sense talking to the dog.

There is not the slightest chance that I would give Hearts a penny by going to watch them now whereas 25 years or so ago I may have went with my Hearts supporting mates of the day, not to support them but just to watch a game.

Maybe it is societal as Resident Arab tells a similar tale of the Dundee rivalry.

I certainly don't think the comics that masquerade as newspapers these days or the internet have helped matters and have indeed fanned the flames as have it has to be said football pundits who are more interested in overplaying their own roles and importance than relating the tale of the games they have watched and the background information they have gleaned that supporters used to pour over.

It probably doesn't help either that some of the imbeciles that are modern day footballers get far more air time then their abilities or intelligence merits and serve only to stir things up further.

[neil7908]

I'm in my early 30s and when my dad started taking me to watch Hibs in the early 90s he decided we should go to some Hearts games as well.

I honestly have no memory of watching them and had totally forgotten it but was looking through my programmes and found couple that jogged my memory.

It wasn't something that we did long term, maybe only half a season but I think he was trying to present some options (went to a couple of rugby games as well).

I think now with the tribalism in the game would make it hard but the cost is probably a bigger factor. £22 for a adult and £10 for a junior ticket so your paying over £30 just for the game, no extras like programmes or food. It's costly enough following one team!

[Glory Lurker]

Looked at rationally, in an adult way, it is a shame that things have changed as much as they have, but I like the fact that I can get right behind the Hibs without bothering I might set off some jambo nearby, and -maybe more importantly - I can suffer when it goes wrong without it being rubbed in there-and-then. I have only ever known segregation, so maybe don't know what I'm missing, but I doubt I would have enjoyed derbies back in the day as I do now (if "enjoy" is the right word).

[givescotlandfreedom]

I can't imagine going to Tynecastle for anything other than seeing Hibs. Often when I talk to Hearts fans I find a nasty, bigoted edge which lies under the surface and reveals itself before two long. There are one or two very decent exceptions but I mostly can't relate to them and find its a one way street with 'banter' they love to give out but can't take back. For all I know they could feel the same way as me but I usually don't talk football with them because I can't be bothered with the argument and don't care much for nearly all of them as individuals anyway so don't feel like it's worth the hassle. Maybe it isn't helped by their bragging and rewriting history about successes under Vlad which was achieved by doing things that go totally against most of my principles as a person.

[son of haggart]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

Genuinely interested in your view as to why things changed the way they did.

My dad who was Hibs daft happily went to Tynecastle week about and his mates who were Hearts Supporters went to ER

For me it was Mercer, Robinson & Romanov, pre them I had no problem with the back and forth banter that went along but even discounting Mercer's poisonous involvement from my perspective it became banal and insulting under the other two stooges.

I have to say though that far far too many of your fellow supporters couldn't wait to jump on that bandwagon.

You will probably disagree but I would say that many Hearts supporters lost the plot at that point and as in large part became a *******ised version of their lowest common denominating instincts.

I now absolutely detest Hearts and there are very few Hearts supporters I know that I would even bother discussing football with now let alone our respective teams merits. I would get more sense talking to the dog.

There is not the slightest chance that I would give Hearts a penny by going to watch them now whereas 25 years or so ago I may have went with my Hearts supporting mates of the day, not to support them but just to watch a game.

Maybe it is societal as Resident Arab tells a similar tale of the Dundee rivalry.

I certainly don't think the comics that masquerade as newspapers these days or the internet have helped matters and have indeed fanned the flames as have it has to be said football pundits who are more interested in overplaying their own roles and importance than relating the tale of the games they have watched and the background information they have gleaned that supporters used to pour over.

It probably doesn't help either that some of the imbeciles that are modern day footballers get far more air time then their abilities or intelligence merits and serve only to stir things up further.

I don't have the time at present to reply properly., but to my mind it predated Mercer and was largely societal

a) Saturday morning working stopped and the tradition of everyone going to a game together from work faded with it
b) Clockwork Orange - suddenly we had the Gorgie Jungle, Mental Drylaw etc - huge gangs (several hundred) having large scale fights and encouraging all the younger people to march behind them. Previously you'd get drunken fights between individuals having a disagreement. Now it was planned warfare between two tribes
c) as a consequence no changing ends at half time, no intermingling on the terraces.

All this happened before Mercer. Much as I disliked Mercer you can't blame it all on him, to my mind the horse had bolted already.

[snedzuk]

Remember going to a derby years ago in the death trap stand with a hearts mate. Hibs 2-0 down with 10 to go and joe mcbride jr scores. Mate turns to me and says "if you get an eke, ill be seek" - and we duly did courtesy of mr mcbride again

[snedzuk]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don't have the time at present to reply properly., but to my mind it predated Mercer and was largely societal

a) Saturday morning working stopped and the tradition of everyone going to a game together from work faded with it
b) Clockwork Orange - suddenly we had the Gorgie Jungle, Mental Drylaw etc - huge gangs (several hundred) having large scale fights and encouraging all the younger people to march behind them. Previously you'd get drunken fights between individuals having a disagreement. Now it was planned warfare between two tribes
c) as a consequence no changing ends at half time, no intermingling on the terraces.

All this happened before Mercer. Much as I disliked Mercer you can't blame it all on him, to my mind the horse had bolted already.

On the mingling topic at the 7-0 game i had loads of hearts fans say to me at half time they hoped we would go on and win the league.

[fat freddy]

I go to tynie around 3 games most seasons, was there last night, my jambo mate always has a spare season ticket as his son rarely uses his one, i get regular invites but just go to the big games. My dad was a massive hibs fan but he done the alternate week thing in the 50's and 60's as it was the only way to see the players of that era. Plus the pubs shut between 2 and 5 so there was nothing else to do. Tyneastle doesnt bother me, i worked in the refreshment stall in the shed for a season in 1980 and used the cash i stole/earned to watch hibs the following week, when i was a kid id go to tynie whenever a big team were playing them in europe, ive seen hamburg, locomotive leipzeig, arsenal (starring Alex Cropley) and spurs amongst others, seems daft to miss these teams when theyre playing in our city. Do i hate them? Do i hate any sports team? Its a weird concept when you break it down and really think about it. We need teams to play against, it would be less of an experience if we didnt have a dislike of one another, but hate? I hate rangers, hate what they stand for, their fans sense of entitlement, thats the only team i hate and its hate based on moral grounds rather than sporting, the jambos though? I hate how they got away with bumping so many charities and traders but i have a lot of mates who support them and if a team are the fans, as many believe, do i hate my mates? Do i hate a large proportion of edinburgh citizens just because they like the same sport as me but prefer to support a team their fathers took them to see when they were kids? Probably not, but i can hate them for 90 minutes when we play them and i do hope tbey lose every game they play, except when they play rangers. I cant use common sense analysis to rid myself of the hate i have for rangers, they are a stain on scotland and are worthy of hate, it is a public duty to hate them, they are the club its ok to hate.

[Greencore]

I'd watch Edinburgh city if hibs are not playing or too far away, just for something to do... hearts though... nah.

[Sir David Gray]

As someone who started going to games in the mid 90s this concept is completely alien to me. I couldn't imagine ever going to Tynecastle unless Hibs were playing.

A couple of times a season is more than enough.

[heretoday]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I go to tynie around 3 games most seasons, was there last night, my jambo mate always has a spare season ticket as his son rarely uses his one, i get regular invites but just go to the big games. My dad was a massive hibs fan but he done the alternate week thing in the 50's and 60's as it was the only way to see the players of that era. Plus the pubs shut between 2 and 5 so there was nothing else to do. Tyneastle doesnt bother me, i worked in the refreshment stall in the shed for a season in 1980 and used the cash i stole/earned to watch hibs the following week, when i was a kid id go to tynie whenever a big team were playing them in europe, ive seen hamburg, locomotive leipzeig, arsenal (starring Alex Cropley) and spurs amongst others, seems daft to miss these teams when theyre playing in our city. Do i hate them? Do i hate any sports team? Its a weird concept when you break it down and really think about it. We need teams to play against, it would be less of an experience if we didnt have a dislike of one another, but hate? I hate rangers, hate what they stand for, their fans sense of entitlement, thats the only team i hate and its hate based on moral grounds rather than sporting, the jambos though? I hate how they got away with bumping so many charities and traders but i have a lot of mates who support them and if a team are the fans, as many believe, do i hate my mates? Do i hate a large proportion of edinburgh citizens just because they like the same sport as me but prefer to support a team their fathers took them to see when they were kids? Probably not, but i can hate them for 90 minutes when we play them and i do hope tbey lose every game they play, except when they play rangers. I cant use common sense analysis to rid myself of the hate i have for rangers, they are a stain on scotland and are worthy of hate, it is a public duty to hate them, they are the club its ok to hate.

Admirable sentiments.

[jgl07]

I have never been to Tynecastle for a match not involving Hibs.

I have been to matches at Meadowbank, Raith, Dunfermline, Livingston, East Fife, Cowdenbeath, Montrose, Partick, Clyde, Morton, Albion Rovers, and St Mirren when Hibs were not playing. Most of these were mid week or during the former SPL winter break.

When I was a teenager I would often attend matches at Old Trafford as well as Maine Road. I also was a regular at Edgeley Park when Stockport County played on Friday nights.

I had some friends who would follow Manchester City Reserves away from home, even missing some home First Team home games in the process.

[snooky]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I remember very well my uncle Derek (a staunch Jambo) coming along to Easter Road to watch Hibs. I was a lad but remember the banter pre and post match between him and my dad and other uncles and grand dad. The pre-match ritual of dominoes and beer at a well known Easter Road pub set the scene and added to the excitement. I was restricted to coca cola by my dad, but my Uncle Derek gave me a sly wee shandy and introduced me to the man's world.

Such happy and innocent days, where fans could truly mingle on opened terracing.
I remember heading back down Easter Road for a pie supper at my grand parents - the top floor and only inhabited flat at 21 Bernard Street, Leith.
For a wee time way back in 1973/74 I got into the habit of watching Hibs one week and Hearts the next with my Jambo next door neighbour, Tam. I recall the 4-1 defeat of Hibs by Hearts- the first match at Tynie after the famous 7-0 and the delirium of not just my pal but the entire Jambo support - it was sweet revenge, so they thought, for the New Years day massacre.

Segregated seating and the social media have since invoked feelings of an us and them mentality and genuine hatred between both sets of supporters.

I find myself sighing at the changes I have witnessed in my lifetime. Maybe age (59 now) imbues a sense of nostalgia for "happier days"
The fact is that they were not always happier days. When I think of Rangers coming to visit in the early 70's my memories are of experiencing fear, anxiety and genuine hatred and bile from the Glasgow hordes - of stabbings and of rampaging fans on Easter Road.

I remember that game well. We got off lightly as it could have been 8 or 9.
We had Venus de Milo in goals that day (Roddie McKenzie).
Surprisingly, the team line up was only a couple of players different from THE Tornados one.

[BSEJVT]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don't have the time at present to reply properly., but to my mind it predated Mercer and was largely societal

a) Saturday morning working stopped and the tradition of everyone going to a game together from work faded with it
b) Clockwork Orange - suddenly we had the Gorgie Jungle, Mental Drylaw etc - huge gangs (several hundred) having large scale fights and encouraging all the younger people to march behind them. Previously you'd get drunken fights between individuals having a disagreement. Now it was planned warfare between two tribes
c) as a consequence no changing ends at half time, no intermingling on the terraces.

All this happened before Mercer. Much as I disliked Mercer you can't blame it all on him, to my mind the horse had bolted already.

Thanks for your reply

The passage of time dulls memory but I cant recall feeling any great antipathy to Hearts pre -Mercer, but it is interesting to hear your take.

Sure you were our rivals but as far as I recall and am concerned it was no more than that until that point.

I am interested in your viewpoint as to whether your successive owners and their puppets fuelled the flames.

I am sure that they did and deliberately so.

Anderton's time at Tynecastle was childish and pathetic and I would categorise those respective ownership periods I referred to as being completely classless on Hearts part.

I am pleased that under Budge relations at board level at least seem far more cordial and professional, whether we like or not, our interests broadly align to a certain point off the park and having a strong Hibs & Hearts presence co-operating on issues of mutual interest with others in Scottish Football's is our best chance of reigning in the SFA& SPFL's inherent old firm bias.

[Bill Milne]

I remember going to Tynie up to the late 70s if we were not playing at the time. Probably my daftest moment was when a Dundee-Hibs Cup replay at Dens in 1974 was cancelled and I got the BR special to Ayr for a Hertz replay. What I didn't realise coming back was my Hibs scarf was hanging out of my pocket!! Fortunately, a Yam who stayed in my stair at the time tipped me off and disaster was averted.

[AndyM_1875]

This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

I don't have the time at present to reply properly., but to my mind it predated Mercer and was largely societal

a) Saturday morning working stopped and the tradition of everyone going to a game together from work faded with it
b) Clockwork Orange - suddenly we had the Gorgie Jungle, Mental Drylaw etc - huge gangs (several hundred) having large scale fights and encouraging all the younger people to march behind them. Previously you'd get drunken fights between individuals having a disagreement. Now it was planned warfare between two tribes
c) as a consequence no changing ends at half time, no intermingling on the terraces.

All this happened before Mercer. Much as I disliked Mercer you can't blame it all on him, to my mind the horse had bolted already.

It does predate Mercer. I'm sure I've seen a youtube clip of Hibs and Hearts fans knocking lumps off each other on the Tynecastle terraces at the end of a game in the late 70s. My late father went to ER and Tynecastle week about as a young man (his dad was a Leith Athletic man but they'd stopped playing in the 40s) and its interesting hearing it was common practise in Dundee too.
Don't think it transferred to Glasgow though. Mind you my extended Glaswegian family supported Clyde or Queens Park and were mercifully free of the Old Firm's toxicity.

[Forza Fred]

I would have been a regular at Easter Road since the early 60's and if a one week at ER, next week at Tynecastle culture existed then I never knew about it.

If one didn't go to a Hibs away game, then the reserve game at ER was the destination of many, and I remember many games where we were focussed on the phone call to the guy in the entire stand who would pass on the first team full time score to those hanging about.

The only time I went to Tynecastle was in the hope that Hearts would get grubbed, and that was very infrequently.

I was aware though where I worked that several Jambo fans, or Jam Tarts as they were then known, would attend ER to watch thecTurnbull's Tornadoes, because the football was superb.

But, the rivalry and hostility were evident in all my time supporting Hibs.