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  1. #61
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Agree there wad plenty, maybe too much, bit the main things were left hanging.

    You simply cannot expect anyone who is not a lifelong nat (so 70-80% of voters?) To take a risk with their job, theor pension, the money in their pocket, thwir comfortable affluent lifestyle amd their childrens futures by taking a leap into the dark based on some assurances from people with zero experience is running am economy, and who have a poltical imperative to lie.

    The nat strategy has to be about de-risking the leap, which is why i think that they need to do a lot more with the powers they have to both neutralisr opposition by doing a competent job, and bolster amd increase support by showimg that where power lies in Edinburgh, Scotland does better.

    Also i can see why people think the young demographic will see thrm over the line in the future, but that demographic is shrinking and i would imagine there is a marked decrease in appetite as younger, more strident types have kids, get good jobs and have other priorities. So i dont think it necessarily follows.
    Let's put the bit in bold to bed. THERE WAS NEVER A THREAT TO PENSIONS. However the Better Together camp fooled people with their assertion that people would lose their pension (or should that be lied!!?). I wonder how expats in Spain would feel about that!?
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.


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  3. #62
    Testimonial Due Smartie's Avatar
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    There was plenty, adequate detail in the White paper.

    The Better Together campaign disputed all the detail, sowed confusion and doubt and made it look like the detail was inaccurate.

    They were entitled to do so and did so to great effect.

    It is wrong to suggest that the proposal lacked detail, particularly when you put it next to the lack of detail/ totally inaccurate detail (350m for the NHS) of the Brexit campaign.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    Agree there wad plenty, maybe too much, bit the main things were left hanging.

    You simply cannot expect anyone who is not a lifelong nat (so 70-80% of voters?) To take a risk with their job, theor pension, the money in their pocket, thwir comfortable affluent lifestyle amd their childrens futures by taking a leap into the dark based on some assurances from people with zero experience is running am economy, and who have a poltical imperative to lie.

    The nat strategy has to be about de-risking the leap, which is why i think that they need to do a lot more with the powers they have to both neutralisr opposition by doing a competent job, and bolster amd increase support by showimg that where power lies in Edinburgh, Scotland does better.

    Also i can see why people think the young demographic will see thrm over the line in the future, but that demographic is shrinking and i would imagine there is a marked decrease in appetite as younger, more strident types have kids, get good jobs and have other priorities. So i dont think it necessarily follows.
    Is the bit I've highlighted your take on the Brexit vote and the UKIP/Right Wing Tory campaign for leave?

    For what it's worth, 45% of the voting electorate were willing to take the 'risk' in the Indyref. Maybe, like me, they see the real risk is remaining in a failing UK where, amongst other things, those with 'experience' in running the economy have stacked up how much debt - oh, right enough, only 1.75 trillion.

  5. #64
    @hibs.net private member JimBHibees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smartie View Post
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    There was plenty, adequate detail in the White paper.

    The Better Together campaign disputed all the detail, sowed confusion and doubt and made it look like the detail was inaccurate.

    They were entitled to do so and did so to great effect.

    It is wrong to suggest that the proposal lacked detail, particularly when you put it next to the lack of detail/ totally inaccurate detail (350m for the NHS) of the Brexit campaign.
    350m a week lets remember. I think when politicians knowingly lie to that extent there should be a re-run of the election. Blatant untruth by the now Foreign secretary yet he seems to have got away with it and of course the right wing press dont care because job done.

  6. #65
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Let's put the bit in bold to bed. THERE WAS NEVER A THREAT TO PENSIONS. However the Better Together camp fooled people with their assertion that people would lose their pension (or should that be lied!!?). I wonder how expats in Spain would feel about that!?
    I felt my pension could have been at risk, currently got 24 years of contributions tied up in a fund protected by a parliamentary act at Westminster, invested primarily in British investments & calculated in sterling.
    When I raised my concerns I was far from satisfied with the answers, if anything I was made to feel grubby because I had a concern that pertained to money, at the end of the day I feel money/finances (currency/TAX/debt) was a major question for some so they should have been dealt with sincerely.

  7. #66
    @hibs.net private member Golden Fleece's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I felt my pension could have been at risk, currently got 24 years of contributions tied up in a fund protected by a parliamentary act at Westminster, invested primarily in British investments & calculated in sterling.
    When I raised my concerns I was far from satisfied with the answers, if anything I was made to feel grubby because I had a concern that pertained to money, at the end of the day I feel money/finances (currency/TAX/debt) was a major question for some so they should have been dealt with sincerely.

    The bit in bold, it would not have changed. New pension arrangements post independence MAY have been worse, or better, but the existing pensions were protected.

    meanwhile, cast your mind back to 2014....

    Gordon Brown warned that independence came with a pensions time-bomb. The UK Government backed that claim and now we see pension age increases for women meaning some will lose out up to 30,000. UK Government policy since the referendum means that middle to high earners will be better off through their pensions but that low earners will bear the cost of pension reforms. A Scot earning around 15,000 with a working life of 30 years, could see their pension drop 1,800 per annum.
    #Persevered
    Scotland can be a beacon, within these islands and beyond, for a socially just and sustainable society. Whilst there are many priorities which will require independence, there is also much that can and must be done now by the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government.

  8. #67
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    The bit in bold, it would not have changed. New pension arrangements post independence MAY have been worse, or better, but the existing pensions were protected.
    I wish you'd been at our department meeting with company HR & Union reps. It wasn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. My concern was the value of existing pension pot depending what happened re an I-Scotland currency arrangement & subsequent interest rates. Company pensions north of the border could have differed over the term (better or worse) than our colleagues south of the border.
    At that meeting, and since, NOBODY can assure me my pension would NOT be worth less than a colleagues down south,,,,to me that is a risk and has to be factored into any decision I make towards an Independent Scotland.

  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Fleece View Post
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    Let's put the bit in bold to bed. THERE WAS NEVER A THREAT TO PENSIONS. However the Better Together camp fooled people with their assertion that people would lose their pension (or should that be lied!!?). I wonder how expats in Spain would feel about that!?
    I wasnt meaning about old age state pension, i was more meaning private pensions linked to london stock exchange and their jobs.

  10. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    Is the bit I've highlighted your take on the Brexit vote and the UKIP/Right Wing Tory campaign for leave?

    For what it's worth, 45% of the voting electorate were willing to take the 'risk' in the Indyref. Maybe, like me, they see the real risk is remaining in a failing UK where, amongst other things, those with 'experience' in running the economy have stacked up how much debt - oh, right enough, only 1.75 trillion.
    We are not talking about brexit.

    You did, but the majority didnt. Hence the yes side lost, despite a strong showing.

    Surely there is enough introspection to want to examine why they lost?

    Or you could just keep slating those who voted differemtly amd reading The National. That will help.

  11. #70
    @hibs.net private member Just Alf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speedy_gonzales View Post
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    I wish you'd been at our department meeting with company HR & Union reps. It wasn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. My concern was the value of existing pension pot depending what happened re an I-Scotland currency arrangement & subsequent interest rates. Company pensions north of the border could have differed over the term (better or worse) than our colleagues south of the border.
    At that meeting, and since, NOBODY can assure me my pension would NOT be worth less than a colleagues down south,,,,to me that is a risk and has to be factored into any decision I make towards an Independent Scotland.
    At the time, I worked for BT and our financial guys were adamant that our existing pension benefit wouldn't be impacted at all... Unless
    1) I removed the pension pot from it's existing fund and put it elsewhere
    2) I took my pension in a possible new currency.
    so if i left things as they were I'd be on the exact same benefit as an English or Welsh (or someone who'd emigrated) colleague.

    what was more complicated would be any new benefits accrued.
    "The word "genius" isn't applicable in football. A genius is a guy like Norman Einstein."
    --Joe Theisman, NFL football quarterback & sports analyst.

  12. #71
    @hibs.net private member speedy_gonzales's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Just Alf View Post
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    At the time, I worked for BT and our financial guys were adamant that our existing pension benefit wouldn't be impacted at all... Unless
    1) I removed the pension pot from it's existing fund and put it elsewhere
    2) I took my pension in a possible new currency.
    so if i left things as they were I'd be on the exact same benefit as an English or Welsh (or someone who'd emigrated) colleague.

    what was more complicated would be any new benefits accrued.
    Yeah, similar information & scenarios given to us, the biggest question mark was a possible new currency and what it would be pegged to. Nobody could or would give a definitive answer and we were advised, like ALL financial products, values could go up as well as down.
    I just felt then, as I do now, that it was a bit disingenuous to say pensions weren't at risk. Being a financial product, there was a lot of variables out there.

  13. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by SouthsideHarp_Bhoy View Post
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    We are not talking about brexit.

    You did, but the majority didnt. Hence the yes side lost, despite a strong showing.

    Surely there is enough introspection to want to examine why they lost?

    Or you could just keep slating those who voted differemtly amd reading The National. That will help.
    Sorry but I thought your original post was about Brexit.

    FWIW, I don't slate those who voted 'No' but in the past have strongly advocated and argued for Independence.

    I never buy a newspaper.
    Last edited by allmodcons; 06-12-2016 at 11:32 PM.

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by allmodcons View Post
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    Sorry but I thought your original post was about Brexit.

    FWIW, I don't slate those who voted 'No' but in the past have strongly advocated and argued for Independence.

    I never buy a newspaper.
    Fair enough, me neither!

    Apologies for the snippy reply, didnt meant it to sound like that.

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